Education (yeah, that's right)

[Tatterdemalion]

Off all of the "issues" that people feel inclined to talk about, education is probably the thing I feel most strongly about, yet also not the most pleasant to talk about...but, for the sake of argument, erm, Socratic squabbling, uh, enlightened discourse, I'm going to open the floor on this topic.

I've got a lot to say on the subject but since this is a forum and not a soapbox, I'm going to phrase it in the form of a series of questions.

1. The education systems that exist are in many ways a shambles across the board (especially, but by no means limited to those in America). What are the ideal goals of a system of education, and how can such a system exist? Should education be systematic at all?

2. In much of the industrialized world an education is needed to enjoy a reasonable quality of life. Does this improve the state of education, or degrade it?

3. Do you believe education has value to a person beyond the fact that it may be needed to secure a well paying job/decent standard of living?

4. If education does have inherent value, is this value respected by current education systems of your country/the world?

5. Do grades accurately reflect learning? If not, are they a hinderance to education, or a necessary evil?

6. What is the point of all of this education?

7. What is this "education" thing anyway?

Well, answer if you will, they're questions after all. If you're interested I'll weigh in. If not...I don't know, I wasn't counting on that.

[killshot]

I'll give this a shot.

1. The ideal goal of an education system should be to help children maximize their potential. It is the job of the current generation to bestow the knowledge that we have accumulated to future generations so that knowledge can continue to evolve. If a system is used to ensure children recieve a proper education, that system should cater to a child's individual needs and should never impose a standard to which all children must conform to. The task of education should be in the hands of private businesses and not the government. Competion between schools ensures a high quality education that the government cannot provide.

2. Because a basic education is required to function in today's society, I believe schools feel that their job is complete when students are educated enough to join the workforce. Instead of schools trying to make students the best they can be, I believe their goal is to make all students conform to a set standard. For some the standard is too much to ask and for others it is far beneath their abilities. Society creates a standard and standards are detrimental to learning.

3. This depends entirely on the person in question. For most, I believe education is simply a means to an end. I think most people are happy trading a college degree for a decent job. To me, education is more important than just the assurance of a steady income. I enjoy learning and feel that it is essential for progress to be made.

4. The only lesson I think the current standard in America reflects is conformity. The actual material that is taught in schools takes a back seat to obedience. Its up to the individual to determine if there is any value in education. If a person believes that education's only purpose is conformity, then I think society refects it well.

I'll finish up later when I have more time.

[killshot]

5. I have always thought that all classes should be pass or fail. A's can be achieved without learning anything of value and most failing grades seem to be caused by a lack of organization. I think that the current grade system forces good students to be obsessive about acheiving the highest grades possible, causing them undue stress. While the best students battle for who gets the top two slots in the class, the lesser students feel that they can't compete and as a result put less effort into learning. Grades create a needless competition between students which is detrimental to the education of everyone.

6. The point of education is to continue the precedent set by the previous generations. Humans have accumulated a vast amount of information and that information would be worthless without people to pass it onto. The knowledge we have now is the only thing humans have achieved during our time on this earth and it would be wasteful to discontinue our pursuit of it.

7. Simply put, education is a form of brainwashing that encourages a set behavior. Education programs us into functioning members of society. This brainwashing is probably benificial and possibly even nessary for our survival.

[Tatterdemalion]

7. Simply put, education is a form of brainwashing that encourages a set behavior. Education programs us into functioning members of society. This brainwashing is probably benificial and possibly even nessary for our survival.
Is this education as an ideal, education as an abstract concept, or education as it is practiced today.

See, I've always been under the impression that education should ideally facilitate some sort of learning, which allows a person to grow as an individual, not through any sort of training in how to behave, which I really don't see as being inherently connected to education, but rather through having a greater understanding about the world and the nature of the world, even if from an individual perspective...see, that's what I think. Maybe I'm just old fashioned like that.

And brainwashing is good? Honestly, where is your head? Is it at the cleaners?

[darkarcher]

1. The education systems that exist are in many ways a shambles across the board (especially, but by no means limited to those in America). What are the ideal goals of a system of education, and how can such a system exist?
The ideal goal of an educational system would most likely to create in an individual the capacity to work at higher levels in society, which is necessary in maintaining the technology that humankind has become nearly dependent on.Should education be systematic at all?[
That somewhat depends. It is fairly true that systematic education would further society as a whole as long as those people are advancing to the point where they help society. However, there are places where higher-level education is not necessary for the completion of the tasks that they will be accomplishing. Overall, though, it would be better to give everyone the "proper" education instead of not giving enough to people who need it.2. In much of the industrialized world an education is needed to enjoy a reasonable quality of life. Does this improve the state of education, or degrade it?
As long as this education is open to everyone, it will normally increase the state of education. However, as the trend has gone in America, when the focus becomes "everyone must reach a certain point", and that point cannot be reached by all, then the education plummets.3. Do you believe education has value to a person beyond the fact that it may be needed to secure a well paying job/decent standard of living?
Of course. Not only does the standard education give you the skills you need to work at a higher level, but interaction with the instructor and fellow students also build social skills. There are also many other societal skills that, while education is not necessary to obtain them, it allows them to develop more effectively than they would without such interactions.4. If education does have inherent value, is this value respected by current education systems of your country/the world?
I would have to say no. In America, the focus of education has merely become to have the student pass, instead of making sure the necessary education is instilled into them. While this prevents them from gaining much knowledge that they may need, it also instills into students the tendency to be lazy and "just slide by", which carries over with them to the job field, where it is less acceptable.5. Do grades accurately reflect learning? If not, are they a hinderance to education, or a necessary evil?
Grades reflect learning somewhat. However, they are also an indicator of the individual's effort that has been put into the education.6. What is the point of all of this education?
The passing on of knowledge is one of the most valued traditions of all of humankind. There is little that can be done otherwise.7. What is this "education" thing anyway?
Education, in my opinion, is the passing on of knowledge, experience, and skill from one to another in an attempt to better the person doing the learning, and possibly those around them as well.

[killshot]

Have you ever heard of the term reeducation? Anti-revolutionaries in early communist China were sent to reeducation camps to "brainwash" them into conforming to Maoism. Although the methods used to brainwash are quite different, the end result is the same. The desired behavior is exhibited after undergoing this education or "brainwashing."

I think we may have different ideas on what education entails. I think that education includes learned behavior and not just gaining factual knowledge. The word "brainwashing" is rather crude, but it acurately describes a part of the education process. Brainwashing children to conform to societies values has always been part of the education process. It may sound bad, but ultimately it allows children to fit in with their peers and succeed in today's society.

P.S. Nice pun.

[Tatterdemalion]

Well, I in turn ask you this: What about educating oneself? If we assume that outside of a rigindly structured academic context (or even at times within) it is often necessary for one to take education into one's own hands...then, is a person charged with brainwashing themselves?

And does this conformism exist at all levels of education? What about tertiary education? And post-graduate studies/education (which I guess is still tertiary)? I mean, yes, a lot of what is considered education includes convention, but then isn't it the academics who are responsible for taking the initiative to defy this convention, and set new standards? Because if people didn't, then education would never accomplish anything....

And yes, I'm sure we do have differing ideas as to what education entails. I'm also adamantly opposed to conformism, especially institutionalized conformism...because even if it does allow a person to "succeed" in society and "fit in" with their peers, if they have to do it through unquestioning obedience to prescribed values and social standards, then is it even worth it? I would say it most definitely isn't. You may disagree....

[VoodooDoll]

Yay. A website that supports intelligent conversation.
1. Education should be available to those who want it. There are too many people in the school system today that completely waste their oppurtunities they receive in this country (USA). That being said, everyone who truly wants to succeed and learn should be able to receive this education. Should it be systematic? A systematic public education program should be available, albeit voluntary. If people wish to educate themselves outside of the school system, they should have the right to do so.
2. This depends on your definition of Education. If "education" is simply gaining enough knowledge to succeed in the world around you, then setting a standard is certainly beneficial. When addressing the quality of learning, setting standards is extremely detrimental. I happen to live in an area with a top notch school system, and these standards are laughed at. We have state standardized tests that are too easy to be taken seriously, which contributes to the growing "dumbness" of our learning.
3. Education is essential not only for succeeding in life, but for enhancing social skills. It amazes my how many people with college degrees are incapable of intelligent conversation. When people are uneducated, it shows in the way you socialize with others and the way you make everyday decisions.
4. I am a duel citizen, so I have 2 answers. In America, education is extremely undervalued simply because of the vast amount of oppurtunities available to those with a below average intelligence You can succeed without being smart. In France, education is extremely important. While you are in secondary school, you have to take these tests called "les bacs" or les baccalauréats. The results of these tests determines whether you will be a doctor or a truck driver. Success is based on pure knowledge, which increases the value of learning. You can screw up your SATs and still find a decent college. You screw up les bacs and you receive minimum wage for the rest of your life.
5. While standardized tests test knowledge/intellegence, grades test how well you apply yourself. Both of these skills measure how successful you would be in the real world. Teachers should grade fairly across the nation, but they sometimes do not. However, that is a separate conversation.
6. This is too general of a question. The point of public education is to fit a government standard. The point of applying yourself to learn about the world is to make yourselves open to social situations and for (gag!) enjoyment. The point of getting public education is to get higher paying jobs.
7. Education - the act of educating oneself (Once again, too broad a question.)

From this little forum topic, you all seem like (forgive me) educated, intelligent people. Unfortunately, school limits what our brains can learn. Also, in the working world, we find ourselves strapped to company standards, following useless commands. School is good practice for that.

[VoodooDoll]

"if they have to do it through unquestioning obedience to prescribed values and social standards, then is it even worth it?"
unfortunately, you have to have unquestioning obedience with your boss in the working world. If you find a way around that, enjoy it. That oppurtunity comes for a precious few people.

[killshot]

Well, I in turn ask you this: What about educating oneself?
By the time a person would even be capable of educating themselves, the brainwashing would have already taken place. Before anyone can educate themselves, they must first learn to read and learn the importance of reading. I suppose one can't technically brainwash themself, however they would still be under the suggestion of the one who gave them the means to self educate.And does this conformism exist at all levels of education?
After highschool, the primary goal of education seems to shift from conformity to a more specialized skill. I think that conformism is present in all types of education, but is not as pronouced after grade school. I'm also adamantly opposed to conformism, especially institutionalized conformism...because even if it does allow a person to "succeed" in society and "fit in" with their peers, if they have to do it through unquestioning obedience to prescribed values and social standards, then is it even worth it? I would say it most definitely isn't. You may disagree....
I think that as long as the current system maintains a lenient attitude toward dissidence, a structured learning environment can do more good than harm. I'm no fan of conformity either, but I do realize that without usingsome method of control, there is no guarantee that children would even be open to education. Without rules society cannot exist. I view conformity as a necessary evil.

[AsianKid013]

hmmm I'll ask what about our education we currently have today?
it's broken as what our education consists of is a sponge.
we take in information just long enough for tests and what not then
when that's over with or summer starts the sponge is squeezed
ready to suck in more info. So what is the real way to learn?
Rather than this endless cycle of sucking up and spitting back out information>

[Tatterdemalion]

You use the term "success" a lot. What is "success"? Is success reaching some sort of status in the business world, or the working world? Is that what education is for? Honestly, with no disrespect to you for your frankness, this attitude, which runs rampant through the modern/corporate world is absolutely nauseating.

It's all I ever hear about, success, success, success. It's as though nobody cares about education, learning, or anything of the like, and seek to use the education system, in whatever form it may have, as a stepping stone to some sort of social status that really doesn't mean anything in the long run. And on top of that, in the process, education is being trivialized, and associated with all of the mind-numbing, occupational crap that people are so hung up on...Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living...can't the same be said for the uneducated life? (using the meaningful sense of the word, not the utilitarian sense of the word)

Oh dear, now I have to rant unending about this.

And I wasn't in the mood to write an essay...then again, maybe I was. Anyway, here it is:







If you ask anyone, from anywhere across the board what education is, they will tell you it is a path to success. Even if they never utter that phrase, they will manage to fit the word “success” in somewhere or other, then emphasize its importance, or, if the word success does not enter their mind, they will go about describing it in a very obvious way. Now, this may be a fitting, albeit vague description of what education is, provided we apply a very loose interpretation of what the word “success” is supposed to mean. If success involves having a greater understanding of the world, and the nature of the world, so that one can grow as a person throughout one’s entire life, and find lifelong satisfaction in having one’s intellectual desires and curiosities satisfied, along with learning new and greater things every day that passes then yes, I suppose education is the path to a very loosely defined concept of success. Unfortunately, this is not what most people refer to when they speak of success. Unfortunately, the broad interpretation of success is something that is reserved for five year olds, while the general idea of success for anyone past primary school involves a cushy job, a moderately expensive car, and other things of that nature.

People always see it fit to describe education in terms of social standing and profitability. They are always incredibly confident about it, although if you ask them why, they often seem inclined grumble something about the economy, or comment about how the world is far from the way it used to be. If you press them even further you may be able to get a remark about a competitive marketplace, or something of that nature. This is unfortunately often the end of the discussion, because if you press on any further, you run the risk of being called a communist.

It has been said that the unexamined life is not worth living. This is true, to say the least, but I think I will be so bold as to take the idea a step further. The unexamined life, a life devoid of introspection or, as it were, outrospection, if there ever was such a word, a life free of curiosity or inquiry, a life without a desire to learn, never so much as touched by a quest for knowledge, is indeed not worth living. But at the same time it can be said that a person never touched by any want of knowledge, a person who is content to spend his days going through the motions of a productive society, without ever being tempted to seek something beyond his dull, cramped, corporate world has never even begun to live.

We are humans. As humans we are granted an extraordinary gift, which most of us see fit to squander, many being unaware that it has ever graced our species. We humans are born with an active mind, a curious mind, a mind which seeks to explore, seeks to grow, and seeks to create. We are driven by more than simply the need for sleep, food and sex. Yet somehow, in a world where all of our basic material needs can be met, in which the ultimate end to the struggle for food and sleep are at out fingertips, and in which the potential for a life of education, scholarship, and other such ever important trivial pursuits stretches out before us like a vast plot of fertile soil, most have felt it fitting to give up the ghost, and allow themselves to be swept up into the mindless, amorphous sea of the modern world.

These people are dead. America is dead. France is dead. India and China are as dead as a pair of coffin nails. Japan has been dead since the late Meiji Restoration, and maggots have since begun to fester on its bloated corpse, floating in the Pacific Ocean, in the form of electronics, automobiles, and other high quality exports. The world is filled with dead people, cadavers who walk the streets, drive their gurneys to work every morning, and bury themselves in routine, and the depraved contentment of a productive lifestyle.

And make no mistake, these corpses are not restricted to the offices and factories of the world. No, for the greatest morgues of them all are the schools, where dead people begin the deadening process. If it is at birth that the life long process of education begins, then it is in the schools that it is brought to a sudden end. Perhaps it is unfair to characterize students as corpses, as the term zombie seems far more fitting. In the schools students, driven by books, and essays, and due dates, go through the motions of an educational life, memorizing dates, and practicing techniques, yet because their motivations are driven by all but curiosity, all they are doing is simulating the life of the living, consuming without digesting or tasting, never to be satisfied, and spreading nothing but more death of the curious spirit.

The schools of the world do nothing to promote education, everybody knows this. We pretend that there is some significance, however small, in the numbers students are assigned as grade, or the “skills” which schools purport to teach, but these numbers and words are only as important as the value that our social institutions, our places of business, and of course, our other schools assign to them. Although this may be more than enough to satisfy the great masses of dead people who dictate the pace of the world, at the same time, all refuse to accept it. Instead the charade is kept up, and we take part in the pantomime that somehow the subject matter learned in school, whatever it may be, has value that is not in any way monetary. The citizens of the world indulge in the farce that the schools have the power to convey something of intellectual or aesthetic value to their students, yet when discussions of schooling comes up, all that is ever discussed is preparing for a child’s future, and training a student to be successful in life. The potential for schools to truly teach is perhaps present, in some way, locked away in a pedagogical form that has not been explored in ages. Yet as long as content with the façade of true learning remains, as it will for a great many years to come, nothing will be done to bring about any sort of change.

It is a great crime to education, what we do. We rush students through the system, we force them to go through a great ritual dance, the twelve year long rite of passage of the modern world. We suggest that somehow education is their birthright, which by all means it is, then deny them a true chance to learn, instead feeding them a great colossal lie, designed to get them into a moderately high paying job a few decades down the line, all the while telling them that it’s the same thing. We reduce the very concept of education to trivial, menial nonsense, involving being to use a certain number of adjectives in an essay, or being able to multiply on command, and then we act surprised when students seem to lack any intellect or sense. Furthermore, to those who have within them a desire to learn, to grow and to educate themselves, we give next to nothing, instead entering them into the mind numbing obstacle course of memorization and due dates, then having the audacity to tell them that they are actually receiving something special, that will be of immaterial value to them in some way shape or form. Or, conversely, we try to use their curiosity to draw them further into the obstacle course, even when the exact opposite is what would be ideal for their educational, spiritual, and mental health.

We are not a society that values education. This is a fact which I am sure has been made clear by this point. However, the true problem is not only that we as a whole do not value education, but that we have craftily created a substitute in order to sway those who do value education in some way, to persuade them to side with the land of the undead. In the school system, as it stands, all material is rushed through, grades and test scores are valued over all else, and the main purpose of all things academic is treated as being to end one’s academic pursuits as quickly as possible. This goes without saying, and is more of a statement of the obvious than some sort of shocking revelation. In addition, the notion that somehow a school should place all value on a student’s personal benefit from the material taught, and place all importance on making knowledge, and all the other products of learning readily available and accessible, rather than attempting to measure a student’s written output would seem absurd. Why, then, do we still insist that education and the school system are somehow related? Is it to dodge our obligation to actually provide students with an education? Or is it an act of denial in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Regardless of what its purpose is, it is a great injustice to all who are subjected to it, which in the modern world is just about everyone.

And what is a greater injustice than anything else that we do is how we treat the few heroes who do exist. Believe me, there are heroes in this world. There are a brave few, a bold few, and dare I say a happy few, when happiness can manage, who defy the limitations prescribed to them, so that they may be granted a chance at a life worth living. And no, these heroes are not the masters of the sob story, who are able to woo the masses with their craftily embellished tales of their bold struggles against adversity, they are not the rhetoric artists, who are able to manipulate words and commas to create the illusion of literacy in whatever field they choose, they are not even the ever laboring group who pore over their books from dawn until dusk, paying no mind to their wants and needs, all for the sake of a high mark on a coming exam. No, the true heroes of the world will not be found in any such frauds, any such deceitful champions of insincerity. The true heroes of the world are these who are paid no mind by the public at large, those who survive simply out of their own interest. They are the student who spends nights upon nights editing Wikipedia, not for any money or recognition, but simply because he can. They are the professor who, long after he has reached a ripe old age, continues teaching out of nothing but love of the sport. They are the writer who, although he will never find fame or success in the publishing industry, reads his work publicly every week, merely for the sake of creative expression. They are all who seek their fortune not in gold and silver, but in the intangibles which the world has all but forgotten.

They are the bold, daring few who learn for the sake of learning, and who wish to know for the sake of knowing, and who do so every day of their lives, irrespective of the goals they are told to set, and the mind numbing paths they are expected to travel. These heroes, these champions for a dying cause, cannot be manufactured, they cannot be trained, cannot be bought, and cannot be sold. The only thing we can do for them is to let them be free, and to let them live for the sake of living. And yet in this one simple thing we have failed, we have torn their wings from their bodies, and we have proudly beaten the drum to which we have commanded them to march. With our numbers and grades we have forced them into line, with our forms and our essays we have hidden them from sight, and with offices and cars we have covered any memory of their existence.

With ease we have killed those few among use who ever dared to live. Who will bring life to our people now? Who will restore our species to the world of the living? Whose hand will ever come to restore the gift that our kind felt it fit to squander? The simple answer, and the only answer, is no one. Ask as we may, no person will ever come, for try as we might, shout as we will into the darkness, there will be no one to save us from our ignorance.








Yep, taking up too much space on an internet forum...that's what I do.

[Tatterdemalion]

How is dissidence a bad thing? Honestly, you make it sound as though we need to make sure that people can't think for themselves for the sake of teaching them to think for themselves (because a truly intelligent person needs to be able to think for themself, right? In fact, that's the first prerequsite for intelligence...right?).

You can't force intelligence onto someone, you can only force obedience...which is the opposite of intelligence...and if the purpose of education is to promote ignorance, then how can you possibly support it.

It sounds more like you're talking about hypnopaedic wisdom, to tell you the truth.

And I would disagree that education involves learning behavior...ultimately, the ideal goal of education should be, beyond the pursuit of knowledge, the ability to grow as an individual, independent of the thoughts and will of others, especially society as a whole, and figures of authority.

Which means that you, sir, are my nemesis...well, maybe not a nemesis...more of an enemy I guess. Oh well...

Good day!

[frogger4Christ]

Since I'm too lazy to read your extremely long rants, I'll just say that I'm taking two summer school classes and I'm cool with that.
Any comments?

[killshot]

How is dissidence a bad thing? Honestly, you make it sound as though we need to make sure that people can't think for themselves for the sake of teaching them to think for themselves
It baffles me how someone of your caliber of intelligence can continuously misinterpret my posts. Am I phrasing things oddly? This makes twice you have interpreted my opinion to mean the opposite of what I was trying to say. My statement about dissidence was supposed to mean that it should be, and in a way still is encouraged by the system.

I am no fan of obedience either. I was simply speaking of the way things are, not as they should be. I am an athiest. One of my main problems with religion is that it stunts free thought. I will always be opposed to forced ignorance and I in no way support the idea of stripping children of their independent thought.

I thought your essay on the sorry state of education was brilliant. You should consider writing a book. Althought I thought you pinned down the problems with the current system quite well, I am curious to know what you would put in its place. Idealism is nice and all, but I myself am a realist. People won't change just because you want them too. I think that most people couldn't care less about their own education so they will continue to do nothing about it. If people can be ingorant and happy, I say let them. As long as their ignorance doesn't interfere with my life, its none of my business.

[Tatterdemalion]

Well, perhaps it's a combination between your phrasing and my lack of ability to interpret your phrasing. Perhaps it was the word "lenient" that threw me off.

And I would be inclined to disagree with you on the matter of religion, but that's a different topic.

As for the essay, first I thank you for your kind words, they are much appreciated. Although I myself think that it's a bit murky, and skips around the point in some places, and doesn't go into enough detail in others (if the two aren't the same thing), so I was actually considering rewriting it shortly before I read this....which I still think I'll do.

Also, as far as what is to be done is concerned, that's a complicated, yet addressable topic, which I may just work into the rewrite.

See, I'd have to disagree with you on your not caring about the ignorance of others. And you brought the reason up yourself. People aren't going to change just because you want them to, that's very true. People are only going to change if they themselves want to. And ignorant people aren't the sort to want change, because change comes from dissatisfaction. So considering that people are responsible for the fate of the world, and that it's almost impossible to live completely autonomously, it would be much better to live in a world of intelligent people than a world of ignorant people. On top of which, intelligent people make for much more enjoyable company, and much more interesting conversation. I myself would by far prefer being surrounded by intelligent people to being surrounded by ignorant people any day,

And while you can't make people change their lives, you can influence them to change their minds. Everyone is in a way born ignorant by default, but at the same time everyone is morn with a certain curiosity, as a natural solution to counteract and put an end to that ignorance. When people lose their curiosity somewhere along the line, and stop caring, then ignorance is turned into stupidity. But stupidity is an acquired trait, and both ignorance and stupidity are reversable, so if it;s possible to make the world a more intelligent place, which it is, then I say lets go for it. Although it's going to require a pretty good system of education. Are you with me?

[killshot]

Glad to know we are both on the same page again.

You say that the way to change someone is to make them dissatisfied with the status quo. I agree, but don't see a way to make this happen. I think there is a ring of truth to the old saying, "Ignorance is bliss." The only hope I can see is to forget about the current generation and start fresh with the next. However, to ensure the new generation isn't soiled by "career oriented" education, a brand new system would need to be put in place and the majority of teachers would have to be replaced. The students can only grow as much as the educators allow, and its been my experience that most teachers think education ends when the student is ready to enter "the real world." (I despise this phrase)

As for the ignorant running the world, you would be surpised how little impact they can make when you simply ignore them. I have no problem following the rules when it is convient for me, but I am quite content to disregard any policy I find to be ridiculous. For example, I would never in good conscience harm a fellow human being, but they can shove their 65 mile per hour highway speed limit up their ass. I used to think people could save the enivornment if they would just make a few sacrifices, but I think I know human nature well enough now to know that a little recycling is way too much to ask. It may be impossible to shun society and live independently, but that doesn't mean you have to get caught up in all of their self righteous nonsense.

I'm not sure it is possible to change an unwilling mind. I hate being this pessimistic, but I can't imagine anything that could convince the majority that personal success is not the highest goal that can be acheived. People didn't lose their curiosity, they sold it. They traded their education for a decent job and have never looked back. Until people can sort out their priorities, I see no hope for the future of education.

[Tatterdemalion]

The students can only grow as much as the educators allow, and its been my experience that most teachers think education ends when the student is ready to enter "the real world." (I despise this phrase)

Odd, my experience with teachers has been almost the exact opposite, in that for the most part, most of the teachers I've known have been dedicated to education in the meaningful sense of the word, and in some way fristrated with the way things work out...although I dispise the phrase "real world" as well.

As far as dealing with ignorance by ignoring it (if that concept doesn't contradict itself, being ignorant of ignorance), all I can say is that I myself would much rather spend one day in a world of intelligent people than spend my entire life apart from

And the thing about society itself is that it's always changing in some way. That's the other thing that makes people distinct from the rest of the animals, the fact that in addition to continuously growing mentally as individuals throughout our entire lives, from one generation to the next the structure of our society changes as well, and more rapidly in recent years (the last couple of centuries) than ever before. Very little of "human nature" is natural at all, indeed most behavior is conditioned by the world around us, and the bits that aren't are the sort of things that would only be of interest to psychologists at a very high level of research (not that they're unimportant, but they're unimportant to our discussion).

So the idea that you can't change the world, or the way people behave in the world, is a bit odd, because in reality you can't stop the world from changing. The problem lies in whether the world changes for better or worse, and while you can do what you like
I myself don't think there's any sense in sitting idly by. Because while you may say ignorance is bliss, I myself think ignorance is more like a sort of mild contentment, kind of like when you're hungry, but you don't feel like cooking, so you make one of those microwaveable meals, which isn't that great, but then you're not hungry anymore, so you don't care.

And keep in mind that the concept of success being all-important comes from the fact that we're living in the Upwardly-Mobile Society. It's a kind of a compromise between capitalism and feudalism, in which everyone technically has the potential to become rich and live comfortably, but at the same time nobody has any money. It's a pretty strange way to live, granted, and it's largely supported by an all-reaching mass media, which confuses, manipulates and deudes people into thinking they have more money than they do, or thinking that they're about to run into some money, or helping them forget they don't have any money. And I agree, it has to go (assuming that's what you were thinking)

And while you say that there's nothing that could convince the majority that obtaining a cushy job, a nice car, and a comfortable salary (because I hate using the ever ambiguous word "success") is the highest goal that can be achieved, I think there are some assumptions that we can't take for granted. For example, we can't assume that the choices between being a lifelong scholar, being an artist at heart, and being able to sustain one's day to day life have to be mutually exclusive. And we can't assume that the vast majority of the people of the world are going to be happy with fast food and the sex box for always and eternity (keep in mind, while it seems that television has been around for quite a while, the quality of the programming and material are actually declining exponentially...then again, so is intelligence on the whole...so if it crashes, that might actually work out, it's a tough call to make). And we can't assume that people aren't eventually going to realize that they have no money. And so on and so forth.

So I'd say that there isn't enough evidence to be pessimistic, just enough evidence to tell us that while a couple centuries isn't that long, we're still long overdue for a change.

And while the state of education and the value of knowledge and intellect in society may be going down the wong end of things, there may at least be a glimmer of hope. For example, if 5 years ago you told me that a large group of people from all over the world would get together to compile an enormous, reasonably accurate anthology of general-interest information, made available to the public free of charge or copyright, for no monetary recompense on their behalf whatsoever, I probably wouldn't believe you. But lo and behold, Wikipedia is one of the top websites on this strange thing called the Internet...I'm not saying all of our problems are solved, or that they're about to solve themselves, but I don't think all hope is lost either.

You may disagree, but that's because you're not me (wow, what brilliant insight).

And as far as an alternative to the way things currently go, I'm working on it, okay?

[Tatterdemalion]

Wow, I'm replying to this comment too.hmmm I'll ask what about our education we currently have today?
it's broken as what our education consists of is a sponge.
we take in information just long enough for tests and what not then
when that's over with or summer starts the sponge is squeezed
ready to suck in more info. So what is the real way to learn?
Rather than this endless cycle of sucking up and spitting back out information>
The way to make education worthwhile is ideally to accept that knowledge does not exist in a vacuum. That is, when you learn something, rather than repeating it, what you should do is think about it, develop opinions about it, develop opinions based on it, and apply it to different contexts. The problem is that this is incredibly difficult to measure or record, if it is indeed possible to measure at all, so schools don't teach it...because it doesn't return results. Instead, the whole spongy thing works better for them, even though it's actually a waste of everyone's time.

[AsianKid013]

yes that's true our education system has created things like the "5 paragraph essay" for such things and throughout our school life we're taught this sponge system until it becomes apart of us which happens to most of the population sadly

[viarules]

Ahh I see. A "smart people thread"

I'll be going now.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Reading/skimming this thread just makes me remember how awful a lot of high school and general education courses in college are.
I attended a Catholic high school so it wasn't as bad as the public schools for a variety of reasons when it comes to the education itself, but there was still that mentality that you don't have to do ALL the work or try your best in order to get a good grade, and I took pretty full advantage of that. Know why? Because I just didn't really care for the most part. I didn't care about the specific things the 3 branches of government do, I didn't care about the quadratic formula, I didn't care about balancing equations, etc. Also didn't help that for the most part, the English program wasn't too good either (either not teaching us anything or being incredibly annoying about the way the stuff was taught, aside from Junior year when it was fun and interesting).

I go to a public university right now and I have a couple things to say about that:
1. General Education courses are a pain. They're the stuff that you absolutely HAVE to take and it's the worst when you don't have any good choices. I don't have much motivation to do learn that kind of stuff so why should I try?
2. My English courses for the most part, on the other hand, have been so wonderful and so interesting I could learn this stuff for 10 years and not get bored (though I wouldn't want to pay the money to do that, lol). It's always been the same way for singing as well (plus there's no homework with that... yet... but even then I might not mind doing it...). All I can say is that I'm really glad that I've found something that really interests me and makes me want to learn more in an academic setting. I feel that English may not give you the best job opportunities, but by learning about literature and writing, I feel like I'm becoming a better person because of it, and that's what an education is all about. Most of my high school classes and most of my non-English gen eds have not done that to me.

Besides, if it wasn't for the homework for those classes, they wouldn't have been so bad. If I could just sit and learn and get a grade based on my listening and taking notes, those classes would have been so much better (with the exception of Biology and Psychology... those needed the homework, though I could have done without the exams).

[Tatterdemalion]

It's a shame that you don't care about those things...I mean, not that you have to be head over heels in love with everything, but still, not caring what the three branches of government do? That's too bad, really.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I know, I know.
I mean, I care a little, but not enough to take a whole class about it.
Just being informed would be enough for me. And I did know at one point but I forgot. :/

[Tatterdemalion]

Eh, I feel similarly about applied sciences

[Seri]

6. What is the point of all of this education?
To this I always imagined its for our future , when we want to become something later in life.
Though people who want to work in hooters all their life, I suppose they get the graduation from high school and split benefit.

However, people will other aspirations need the education, in school. People that read a lot especially, ones who read Historics, or Bibliography has a high chance and better understanding of the world. Whenever there is a discussion going on, I always feel bad that I cannot contribute my idears, simply because I have no intellect in that area.