Literacy

[EpicPhail]

Okay, I admit it: I'm a Grammar Nazi. I pick out people's mistakes in grammar and spelling and correct them if I can.

Why is the world going crazy? When the internet was first invented, L337 didn't exist nor did chat speak. All of a sudden, most of the world's population that speak English use either L337 or chat speak when online.
I have actually made chats on deviantart whereas, if you speak in L337 or chat speak, you're kicked from the chat. Three times kicked and you continue to do it, you're banned.
Forums are weird. At least, people who speak using letters intermixed with numbers and/or one letter in substitute for three letters are. I've never really understood why people say "U" instead of "you". You have (usually) ten fingers at a keyboard. The keyboard contains all the letters you will ever need if English is your first language. It takes about less than one second to type the word "are" or "you".

Fanfiction and Novels On the Internet. If you aspire to become an author one day, grammar is your best friend, whether you like it or not. If you speak with improper grammar, you'll never make it. (Now, there are other aspects of writing you will need, but those are irrelevant.) There have been some really, really good fanfiction I've read, plot-wise, but all of the grammar and spelling is messed up. I can understand if English isn't your first language, but if it is, then show it. If you're bad at spelling, use a word processor. Microsoft Word seems to be quite popular, but I prefer OpenOffice. They're both pretty nice. (I recommend OpenOffice if you DO aspire to become a writer one day.)
If you don't like word processors or are on the internet (latter is more common for this), use FireFox's correction program. It's much like Spell Check, though it's on the internet. Just right-click the underlined word, and it'll list suggestions (if there are any).

Now, thank you for reading my rant/suggestions.
I encourage you to express your own opinions.

[JesusRocks]

I'd hate to point this out to you, Mr Grammar Nazi, but you have spelled "Literate" incorrectly

"Literate" only has two T's, not three.

[Titan50]

I've noticed forums are getting better literate-wise, but msn, Bebo, etc, are a nightmare to read. Someone I know types in allcaps and replaces E's with 3, etc.

[HeavyDDR]

1337 is never used today, people who were new to the keyboard would SOMETIMES use it to look cool. Trying to type an entire sentence in 1337 took far too much time.

Being illiterate on the internet came in when kids found it too hard to type; the letters were mixed around and it was hard to get used to, so spending an hour to type out "you" was a waste of time to them when they could just type "u" and move on to the next word. And now that texting came in, which is a PAIN to use if you're not used to it, typing like this was accepted and eventually grew to them when speaking on the internet.

Does it really matter? It's not hurting society because people who use improper grammar get no respect on forums and are shunned.

[Elt]

Does it really matter?
What he said...

I'm glad that you pointed out that not all people have english as their mother tongue (me for example). You're making it sound like we people who don't have english as our mothertongue should force ourselves to correct all our little grammar and spelling mistakes with some cheap ass OpenOffice. We should be the ones complaining at you for only being able to speak one language. Instead you complain at us "Learn to speak english, it's the only language that matters in this world".

I might be going abit overboard here but it's still annoying to see people complaining about such useless things...

[killshot]

Does it really matter?
Considering forums are a text based medium, I would say proper spelling and grammar are fairly important. A few mistakes aren't going to hurt anyone, but repeated errors and improper punctuation can seriously detract from the message. Its also a pain to read.

In regard to text messaging, this is the single most useless invention of our generation. Why on earth would you spend 15 minutes typing something out with your thumbs when you have a working phone in your hand that can get the message across in 15 seconds? Not only is text messaging impractical, but nothing sent in a text message has ever been important. When was the last time you ever got a text message that contained useful information?

[darkarcher]

I changed the topic title due to...
1. It used 1337.
2. It was in all caps.
3. It made this seem like a troll-topic.

This is General Discussion. If a topic is truly interesting, you do not need to make it more noticeable to everyone.

[Elt]

Actually, here in Finland, text messages are very common, people just sometimes don't feel like talking so they just send text messages. I always send text messages to friends instead of calling them. And you're really slow if it takes 15 minutes to type something with a phone.
And yes, i've gotten plenty of text messages that have contained useful information...

[JesusRocks]

And you got rid of the spelling fail ^_^

I would say that spelling and grammar are important on the forum... If someone doesn't understand your ordinarily typed posts, how on earth are they ever going to understand the forum terminology like "FAIL" or "BAR" or "DESU~", or even "BatEd" "Pedobear"...?

[killshot]

I would not know how long it takes to type a text message because I have never sent one. The point is, if its important then it would be faster to call them on the phone. If its not important, then why are you sending the message in the first place? I know that texting is common, it just makes no sense.

I've never been to Finland, but here in the United States text messages are for dumb teenagers to talk to other dumb teenagers about dumb teenage shit. You will usually find kids texting each other when they are not busy shoveling disgusting fast food into their faces and buying junk at the mall like sneakers with lights in them. To me, the text message is the epitome of our consumer culture and represents the point in our history where we have the technology to communicate with anyone on the planet and we use this technology to say things like, "where r u? wanna go 2 teh mall?" Texting is ruining the English language and I will have no part of it.

[darkarcher]

messages are for dumb teenagers to talk to other dumb teenagers about dumb teenage shit.
Be careful about statements like this that could be considered flaming.

[HeavyDDR]

Calling for something stupid takes up minutes. Texting is just a few cents.

[Tatterdemalion]

See, the thing about the way people speak being different on the internet has to do with the fact that language is a living thing, and adapts as a person's environment adapts. Communicating on the internet is an interesting thing. It's not exactly speaking. It's not exactly writing. It's something...different. And you use a keyboard. So people are going to adjust their language.

And keep in mind that there are different kinds of adaptations used on the internet. Yes, there's this "1773," which is a strange way to speak, but I really rarely see it, so I don't really care. Then there's also lolspeak, which, although people generally use it with some degree of sarcasm, is incredibly annoying. But again, I don't see it too often. There's also internet acronyms (lol, rofl, omg, etc), and shorthand (you = u). And there's the use of symbols to make facial expressions, and such. Now, I'd say that the usage of these different styles of speech depend a lot on the context. In internet forums you expect people to have a pretty standard use of the English language. Then again, in something like an instant messenge, it's a different environment, so people might be more inclined to use shorthand, for the sake of keep ing the pacing of such a conversation. Then there are contexts where people have a limited amount that they can type...in any case, sometimes it's really not bad grammar, but just a non-standard usage of the language...perhaps even a patois. Just as we speak differently in different contexts in day to day life, people write differently in different contexts on the internet.

Now, I think it's interesting, because the way I write in forums is different from the way I write in other settings. That is, I use a very casual sort of language, including contractions and everything. Also, I make dangerously frequent use of...elipses. Also, I've noticed something strange that I do is that in an instant messenger, if I'm only writing one sentence, I won't put a period. I don't know why, but it's as though if the period isn't needed to separate two sentences, I won't use it (that is, only in instant messengers, though)

That being said, I don't think that the internet should be seen as an excuse to use bad grammar and such when it's inappropriate. If you're posting on a forum, or elsewhere where people are going to read what you write, you owe it to them to write in such a way that it's understandable, and the typed equivalent of legible. That is, use standard punctuation, capitalize what needs to be capitalized...break up long posts into smaller paragraphs, and all that standard stuff. And use standard English. That's all pretty much a given.

Still, I don't think it's a good idea to correct people on their grammar on the internet (is "on their grammar" gramatically correct?). First off, it's not nice. Because either 1) a person made a legitimate grammatical error, which they didn't notice, in which case it would be very rude to draw excess attention to it (the equivalent of shouting "hey, there's a stain on your shirt!" to someone you don't know in a public place), or 2) they know that they're not using standard grammar, in which case you telling them isn't going to accomplish anything. Also, as far as spelling errors are concerned, I think the best thing to do is the WIkipedian thing, and assume good faith. That is to say, assume they know the correct spelling of the word, and that their spelling is just a typo that they missed. And you definitely shouldn't go out of your way pointing out typos, because even if people proofread their work, you can accept that an error or two are going to slip past them (you can't say you've never posted something with a typo on the internet), and it would be petty to correct them on it.

Still, there is one thing that annoys me more than anything else I see online, and that is when people confuse two homonyms of common, common words. It's not the mistake, which may just be an error from typing fast, but the fact that I see them all the time. I'm starting to worry that people don't actually know the difference between "your" and "you're," or "there" and "their." There's also "its" and "it's," which is also annoying...

Anyway, the real answer is, people use chatspeak when they're chatting...in a chat room, on an instant messenger, etc. Which is perfectly acceptable. But no, they shouldn't bring it into forums, or things of that nature. It's just like speech, there's a way you speak when you're with your friends, and there's a way you speak when you're at work. Just keep them separate, and there's not much wrong with either of them.

[Tatterdemalion]

Be careful that when characterizing something as "dumb teenage whathaveyou" that you aren't at the same time absolving non-teenagers who do the same thing. Keep in mind, it's not as though "dumb teenagers" reach a certain age and suddenly become smart. To the contrary, stupid kids turn into stupid adults. It has nothing to do with their age, just the fact that they're stupid. It's a cultural phenomenon.

[killshot]

The age of texting pretty much only applies to the current generation. Older people either don't know how to send text messages or they have better things to do with their time. I'm not saying only teenagers abuse texting, but the vast majority of text users are teens and younger adults. When the new generation grows older I doubt they will wise up, but for now I think blaming teens is a justifiable way of thinking.

@ HeavyDDR: If its stupid then why contact them at all?

[Tatterdemalion]

Blaming them for what? The only thing that you're really "blaming" anyone for is being senseless consumers of a product that they don't need, a product which, through its constant use, is negatively impacting society. (am I somewhere on point, or way off?)

Now, if that's the case, then you can't just blame one generation, because while text messaging itself may be exclusive to the current generation fo teenagers, senseless consumerism has been around for a hell of a lot longer. The products may change, but really, the concept itself doesn't change. So if the big senseless consumer trend today is text messaging, then yes, you can blame one generation for consuming that particular trend/products, but at the same time that doesn't change the fact that the rest of society at large behaves the exact same way with their own unnecessary consumer items.

Let's look at cellular telephones as a closely related analogy. Granted, cell phones are also considerably new inventions in the broader context of technology, but I think it's fair to say that the "vast majority" of cell phone users are not exclusively teenagers, and that cell phone use is widespread amongst adults.

Now, cell phone technology, convenient as it may appear, is probably one of the most misused pieces of technology that we have in the modern world. I myself don't have a cell phone, and quite frankly, I don't need one. If I'm out and about somewhere, I honestly don't feel the impulse to call someone on the telephone for some reason. Now, there s the possibility that I would need to convey a message to someone, but it really seems that I very rarely need to get a message to someone that can't wait until I get home. And if worse comes to worst, I can always use a pay phone, which strangely enough is not as inconvenient as you may expect (they're everywhere and only cost 25 cents, which isn't too bad if you rarely need to use them).

But still, my own cell phone use is irrelevant. Let's assume, for a moment, that in some uncommon, yet existent cases, cell phones have a practical usage, if you need to get a message to someone quickly. Is that what people use them for? Do the overhwelming majority of people use cell phones conservatively? I'm afraid they don't, because if they did, then I wouldn't be forced to listen to the people around me, in public places, constantly yak about bullshit. Honestly, what do people do? Well, there are some who like to have lengthy conversations on their cell phones, which may or may not be of a personal nature, in large public places...and in addition to the fact that the supermarket is just not the place to have such a conversation, they're also inclined to be loud and disruptive, because they're struggling to hear/be heard, due to a ccombination of the fact that they may have sub-standard reception, and the fact that they're in a public place.

Then there are the people who have lengthy conversations about literally nothing. The ones who feel the need to describe their bus ride, or chit-chat. Honestly, if you're calling to tell someone that you'll meet them in 20 minutes, then why would you proceed to make small talk with them...when you're going to see them in 20 minutes? And how often do cell phones go off at inappropriate times/places? That may vary, but my experience is that it's far too many. And people somehow feel that because they have their phones with them at all times, they have to take personal calls at all times...you see people talking on their phones in restaurants and such, while they're with company. Now, call me old-fashioned, but that's just inappropriate.

Now, why is all of this a problem? Is it because there's something wrong with the technology? Is communication evil? Or is it that people don't have the common sense to use their telephones responsibly, and end up being wasteful, senseless, and unnecessarily and excessively consumptive? Text messaging and cell phone use are both little more than the misuse of technology that on its own has a reasonable function, yet has been inflated through consumerism to something of excess. And for the record, if you're just trying to send a quick message to someone, which is what cell phones are supposed to be for in the first place, then a text message is possibly more practical, because it doesn't involve speaking. That is, if you're on a crowded bus, or in an elevator, and you just remembered an urgent message you need to get to someone, then it would be much more practical and less disruptive to the people around you.

And it doesn't need to stop there. What about cars? Yes, cars serve a more important function, but at the same time, don't people make unnecessary use of their automobiles when it would be both more practical and economical to use other methods of transportation (walking, public transit, etc.)? It may seem different from text messaging because cars seem so important and respectable (because they're expensive), but if you argument is against consumerism, then it's really a much better example of a product being used in excess as a result of consumerism, when such use is impractical, expensive, and detrimental to society as a whole.

So if your argument was nothing more than "text messaging is stupid" (a claim you didn't actually give a reason for), then you could possibly point to those who do the actual text messaging, and label them as the guilty parties. But if you're trying to say that teenagers are little more than hapless consumers who represent all that is wrong with consumerism and the abuse of technology in the modern world, then you're just touching on the very tip of the iceberg (and it's a very, very big iceberg).

To suggest that somehow mass consumption is a new phenomenon is silly. To suggest that somehow text messaging represents a milestone in the evolution of consumer culture is unjustified. It's easy to categorize teenage consumerism as the worst or most prominent/significant form of consumerism because it's so flashy, and doesn't attempt to disguise itself as something respectable. But at the same time, it's in many ways the most trivial, because as big a market as teenagers may seem to represent, it's the adults who have the real money, and it's the adults whose decisions, as it stands, have the most impact on society at large.

So I suggest that you re-think your prejudices, and find a new scapegoat for the ills of society. Or, better yet, don't find a scapegoat at all, and accept that it's a shared burden that all consumers carry. Or blame the marketing companies, because in a way they're also responsible.











And I know this might "smell off topic," but it's a direct response to another comment...so in a way it's relevant, yes?

[Amber]

I really dislike "Grammar Nazis". Most of them (not all) have this attitude of superiority around people who don't type exactly the way they want them to. I agree with what Elt said about it seeming like you think English is the best language, and that everyone should learn how to use a spell checker or just not get respect from you. This may not be the message you are trying to convey, but you certainly came off that way. There was very little tolerance in your post, which really bugged me. My mother has dyslexia -- spelling and grammar are extremely hard for her. She does her best, and even though English is her first language, spelling and grammar are never going to come to her. When she's typing e-mails, she constantly has to ask me for help -- it's really embarrassing for her. She is 39 and has to ask her teenaged daughter for help with things she learned in junior high but didn't comprehend. And then there's you "Grammar Nazis" who make it even harder for her, and people like her, for juding her on something she can't help. I could rant on about this forever, but I think you get my point by now.Now, I think it's interesting, because the way I write in forums is different from the way I write in other settings. That is, I use a very casual sort of language, including contractions and everything.
I'm the same way. I think forums are the only place on the internet where I bother to use proper grammar and such. However, I never use things like "u", "r", "gr8", etc. -- not even in text messages. And I use text messages usually to contact my parents. It's really convenient for me to text message my mother the number for where I am, rather than calling and being like, "Do you have pen and paper? No? Okay, I'll wait. Oh, you've got it now? The number is 555-1234. No, not 2341, 1234. Yeah, that's right." When I send the number/address/etc. in a text message it saves that hassle. And the other thing I use it for is when my boyfriend is away at university. During my spare block or lunch hour I can send him a text message to say, "I love you." rather than spending tons of money on long-distance phone calls. It really is quite useful.text messages are for dumb teenagers to talk to other dumb teenagers about dumb teenage shit.
That's one way to make yourself look like an idiot. I am seventeen, and I rarely use text messaging to have a conversation with another teenager. For the most part, I text my parents because it's quick and easy -- as I stated above. But I'm just a dumb teenager doing dumb teenager shit, so what does my opinion matter?Then there are the people who have lengthy conversations about literally nothing. The ones who feel the need to describe their bus ride, or chit-chat. Honestly, if you're calling to tell someone that you'll meet them in 20 minutes, then why would you proceed to make small talk with them...when you're going to see them in 20 minutes? And how often do cell phones go off at inappropriate times/places? That may vary, but my experience is that it's far too many. And people somehow feel that because they have their phones with them at all times, they have to take personal calls at all times...you see people talking on their phones in restaurants and such, while they're with company. Now, call me old-fashioned, but that's just inappropriate.
Ugh, I completely concur with this. I have a cell phone, but that does not mean I need to have it on at all times and yak away on the bus and disturb others. It really annoys me when people do that type of stuff. I've seen people texting in the movie theatre, and not only is the light from their cell phone distracting, but I am sure that most of these people could wait an hour and a half to communicate with that other person.

[Zairak]

On the topic of Internet literacy... I don't know, I have never seen the point in truncating words to save time. It seems to indicate, to me at least, apathy and sloth. Why not simply learn to type faster? You would be improving yourself and accomplishing the same thing. I am speaking of languages in general, not just English. I am not sure if people truncate words in foreign languages, though... In any case, I don't tend to judge people for poor grammar and spelling. However, there is no reason they shouldn't strive to improve themselves.

Texting... I guess I hold the same views on this as well, although I have never used one.

I personally can't see the difference between talking on a cell phone in a restaurant and talking to somebody in a restaurant. Surely there aren't that many people that believe they need to speak louder than they normally would just because they are holding a phone? I also do not understand why so many people hate it when people drive and talk on a cell phone. Again, I can't understand the real difference between doing that and talking to the person in the passenger seat.

[Pianimae21]

I really dislike "Grammar Nazis". Most of them (not all) have this attitude of superiority around people who don't type exactly the way they want them to.
With that said I think that even though I generally don't like seeing (legit) bad grammer, I don't feel superior because someone else can't spell. A lot of Grammer Nazis come off as arrogant, but sometimes it's just that they don't like it when other people are incapable of spelling correctly simply because it messes with their equilibrium. Like you said, not all have this attitude, but sometimes it less of them than you think. Some people just need order...

[Tatterdemalion]

I personally can't see the difference between talking on a cell phone in a restaurant and talking to somebody in a restaurant. Surely there aren't that many people that believe they need to speak louder than they normally would just because they are holding a phone? I also do not understand why so many people hate it when people drive and talk on a cell phone. Again, I can't understand the real difference between doing that and talking to the person in the passenger seat.
First off, the difference is that people don't feel the need to speak louder because they're on the phone, but because they're in a somewhat noisy environment. And while you wouldn't need to speak that much louder to someone sitting a few feet away from eachother, you do need to speak louder on a phone. Also, people tend to speak as well as they can hear, so if they're having trouble hearing the person on the phone, because it's public place and there's background noise, they feel the need to compensate by speaking louder. Also, it's not the same thing, it's a different context. And sometimes people actually talk on their phones when they're actually with other people...which is so rude it's unbelievable.

And you shouldn't talk while on the phone because you hold the phone with your hand, when you're supposed to have your hands on or in close proximity to the steering wheel. And as a rule, you shouldn't talk to the person next to you either if it's going to take our attention away from the road.

[Zairak]

I'd like a little clarification here. And while you wouldn't need to speak that much louder to someone sitting a few feet away from eachother, you do need to speak louder on a phone.
Now, when you say this, are you meaning people actually need to speak louder on a phone, or were you meaning they only do this when the environment they are in is louder than normal? I am afraid I don't quite understand. Other than that, I suppouse you are correct.

[Tatterdemalion]

I'm saying that when there's some background noise, you would need to speak louder. That is, the ordinary background noise of a public place.

[Seri]

I hate grammar Nazi's in general. Especially the ones , in role plays. My friends tell me of their woes when, some role plays require proper grammar, and good use of transitions.

its like, why?

Its not like we are in an English Course. Internet is my fun time, I don't want to burst a brain cell of whatever I may have trying to figure out how to connect, two sentences together.

I figure, as long as someone is easy to understand then thats good enough for me. Please note, capitalizations, and punctuations help too.

Hm. Thats basically it really.

For fan writes, now yes things like that need some serious attention. For a good fan write.

Elt: I might be going abit overboard here but it's still annoying to see people complaining about such useless things...

My Reply: I agree with you fully on this. Not everyone, can type to their best knowledge, why my own mother uses short hand. It is rather annoying to me, and makes me want to show her how to fully write her words, but heh I get slapped if I were to do so.
But as such, I believe such things such as grammar shouldn't be too hyped up, as to the "grammar Nazi's" over looking people who cannot type well.
I do advise people, to use spell check, its very helpful.

Pianimae21: A lot of grammar Nazis come off as arrogant, but sometimes it's just that they don't like it when other people are incapable of spelling correctly simply because it messes with their equilibrium.

My Reply: Yes I agree with this as well. This is probably the reason why, I never go up in their profiles and go "heeeey get a life" Heh. There are things that make me riled up. Though still, I am much more decent.

Grammar nazi's are fine in general, just as long as they don't propose self hate towards another, or make Guilds dedicated to a cause. -Cough Gaia- It makes me wonder what they would be talking in there Haha.