9/11 \'Conspiracy\'

[Chidori]

Has any ever looked into it before, It all seems very surrel when you look into some of the facts.

Here are some references if you haven't heard about any of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0Ms7mId34
http://911sharethetruth.com/

And this is a highly interesting documentary that i reccomend you watching.
http://nosmokewithoutfire.co.uk/watch.htm

Not sure what i think of it all, but I sure as hell don't want to believe it

[killshot]

Please don't tell me you buy into this whole conspiracy garbage. I didn't check into any of your links, but I might get around to it later today. If they are anything like the usual arguments for "the government did it" theory, then I shouldn't have a problem refuting them once I get a minute to spare.

[killshot]

Alright, I've had time to review the videos and links you've posted and it seems like a lot of the usual arguments were made. I'll post a link to a site that does a much better job at debunking these theories than I ever could. The article is divided into sections that are listed on the left side of the page. I think the section on the Twin Towers best covers the topics discussed in your sources.

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/911/

The problem with most conspiracy theorists is that they tend to oversimplify things. They are always going on about how people shouldn't take things at face value and yet they frequently provide inadequate research when it comes to their "evidence." Something these 9/11 truthers fail to understand is that a fact without context is no better than a lie.

[TheFreedomIllusion]

Watch Zeitgeist. It puts forth an extremly convinving argument.

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[MrsSallyBakura]

No.

No, no, no.

I decided to check out the site killshot linked to (which debunks the whole Zeitgeist movie), and I found this:
This is Horus. He is the Sun God of Egypt of around 3000 BC.
Any idiot who's watched Yu-Gi-Oh! knows that the Egyptian Sun God is Ra.
Isn't that just the saddest thing you've ever heard? That a fictional anime has more mythological fact than this "factual" movie?
Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine, he was referred to as the "King of Kings," "God's Only Begotten Son," "The Alpha and Omega," and many others, and upon his death, he was resurrected.
Now this just pissed me off.
Anyone who's taken a basic Literature class and read plays like Oedipus Rex and Antigone knows more about Dionysus than Peter Joseph. I knew more about Dionysus when I was 12 than Peter Joseph does.
I'd go into detail myself but the guy on killshot's website covers it just fine:
He was not born to a virgin, his mother was a mortal Semele (daughter of Cadmus) and his father was Zeus. We know that Zeus had other male children so Dionysus is also not his "only begotten son" [22]. Similar to the story of Attis, Dionysus died each winter and was resurrected in the spring. Again, this is hardly December, much less the 25th of said month [23]. He did, however perform miracles, mostly things involving wine, because he was the god of wine -- naturally he could turn water into wine. The titles listed above, such as "King of Kings" and "The Alpha and Omega" are not sourced in the movie, nor can I find any evidence that these titles ever applied to Dionysus, but for good measure, I did find "The Alpha and Omega" referring to god of Christianity [24].

And these are just snippets from the first part. If Peter Joseph can't even properly research ancient mythology, which can be read and understood much like a bedtime story, how the frick is he supposed to properly research the physics and conspiracy behind 9/11?

It's a very, very sad thing that people let this movie get out in the public. The ONLY REASON why people would want to believe this bullshit is because either
A. They're unreasonably anti-Bush
B. They're unreasonably anti-Christian
or
C. Both of the above
It puts forth an extremly convinving argument.
Buddy, this movie wouldn't convince my dog.

[Underling]

FUFUFU HORUS IS GOD OF THE SKY ERGO GOD OF THE SUN GO FUCK YOURSELF

[MrsSallyBakura]

True, but as quoted and sourced on the website:
At this time, he was the god of the sky, and Ra was the god of the sun. Perhaps inevitable, since he was the sky, eventually the moon and the sun were considered his eyes. At this point he was known as Heru-khuti, and by-and-by he was combined with Ra as the god "Re-Horakhty"[13][11].

[RationalInquirer]

I highly doubt that the US government would orchestrate an attack on their own country. That is preposterous and ridiculous. First of all, 9/11 was an unfortunate turning point in recent history for America and the world. It was done by Islamic extremists who had nothing better to do than fly planes into skyscrapers to make a bad point. Secondly, Bush is far too incompentent and slow reacted to carry out such a conspiracy. If there really existed a so called "conspiracy", then I would bet Cheney (who is not really incompentant-just malignantly evil) and the rest of the Administration would be the true perpetrators, with only Bush as a puppet. The invasion of Iraq was completley uncalled for, and was most likely an attempt to drain some Middle East oil, while pandering to Saudi Arabia shortly after.

Here are some works that may be of interest. They have the usual arguments as well as some new ones:
The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur (book)
The God Who Wasn't There directed by Brian Flemming (movie)

Horus, Dionysus, Mithras, and other forgotten Gods share many parallels with Jesus of Nazareth. I sort of classify modern religions today as "snowball religions". (whether they be Monotheistic, Polytheistic, Nontheistic etc...) I think it is a good analogy for Dark Age/Bronze Age religions that have rolled over many other older beliefs. They take ideas from ancient pagan religions that would appease the masses and input them into their own respective religions, probably intentionally as well as sub-consciously. Obviously all religions have their own original ideas as well, but the similarities are still there.

[darkarcher]

Stay on topic people. This is not supposed to be a religious thread.

[Nutty]

I very much believe september 11th was an inside job, the owner of the towers Larry Siverstein made over 5 billion dollars out of insurance, and Bush earned everything he wanted from 9/11

[HolyShadow]

I very much believe september 11th was an inside job, the owner of the towers Larry Siverstein made over 5 billion dollars out of insurance, and Bush earned everything he wanted from 9/11
Yes, well i believe that Saddam Hussein contacted Osama Bin Laden and gave him his wepons of mass destruction before the US could find them.

I also believe that Barack Obama is the antichrist.

I also believe that aliens created us a quarter of a second ago and all of our memories were created by them, in addition to any physical differences in appearance. We're unaware of them because they want us to be.

See, just because you believe in something means nothing without proof, Herr Forehead.

[Nutty]

ok point taken

The construction manager Frank A DeMartini has this to say

"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crashed into it, that was the largest plane at the time I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your front door this intense grid and the jet plane is just a pencil pucturing the screen netting it really does nothing to the screen netting."

If the construction manager states one plane isn't enough to topple down a humungus sky skraper I believe him

[HolyShadow]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that the jet fuel from the plane combined with flames created temperatures that were enough to melt the metal of the level of the building. When something so heavy falls, then it'll crush the level below it. This kept happening, and combined with the flames, caused it to fall.

I think it was my history teacher that said that a few years ago. He may have been quoting someone else. I don't know.

[Nutty]

Well agree to dissagree, but I don't believe fire can melt protected steel. Whether it was weakened or not thats a different story, but what you described is a pancake collapse

a pancake collapse would make alot of sense except one slight problem, a panckake collapse for a building that large would take over a minute to fall, yet the building fell in under ten seconds

[HolyShadow]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070330010454AAEhMIJ Try here?

[Nutty]

I counter that with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw&feature=related

[HolyShadow]

I don't claim to be an expert on explosions, but where are the explosive devices? Any real proof besides sound?

If it's a pancake collapse, what type of noise would the building collapsing on itself make? It would be a large booming sound, much like an explosion.

[Nutty]

Well William Rodriguez the last person to exit the wtc was at the basement of the world trade center when the plane hit. He heard an explosion before the plane hit, and a few more times after the plane hit.

heres the interview on FOX in case you want to see it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIC0Kl4TKoU

[HolyShadow]

FOX
Not sure whether to laugh there, or congratulate you.

I'll let someone else decide.

[DarkWarrior]

I very much believe september 11th was an inside job, the owner of the towers Larry Siverstein made over 5 billion dollars out of insurance, and Bush earned everything he wanted from 9/11

I doubt very highly that Bush wanted to start two wars that would make him one of the most unpopular presidents in history. I would say that he did what he thought was in America's best interest. You could argue that it wasn't in America's best interest, but honestly, you can't reason that the end result was "what Bush wanted". As far as insurance goes, that doesn't even come close to providing even circumstantial evidence, let alone proof that it's an inside job.

Now, let's address the explosives theory. Let's just say, for argument's sake, that they were there. Answer these:
* How did they get there?
* How did they survive the planes crashing into the towers?
* Logically, someone would have noticed those were there, and gotten a message out about them. Why didn't this happen?
* Where is the physical evidence of these bombs?

There are a bunch of other questions surrounding this, but those are the big ones. There's just no way that explosives even makes sense in this instance.

Might I also point out that there's other reasonable explanations for explosions than bombs? When things ignite, they explode. It happens with fire. And fire from jet fuel burning upwards 2,000 degrees is sure to cause some things to ignite. Conspiracy theorists absolutely need to find some real indisputable evidence for this. Not just making collages of news reports and calling some incidents "indisputable" when they're all open to many interpretations.

Also, conspiracy theorists tend to ignore the fact that Al Quaeda actually admitted it was them. Unless they want to say that Al Quaeda is an American-run organization designed to take blame for conspiracies (And good luck trying to prove that.), then they're blatantly ignoring the obvious, just to push an agenda. What agenda, I don't know, but to blame the government for what a terrorist organization admits to doing is just ridiculous.

[Fat1Fared]

Errrr, guys just so you know Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin are too different people/ leaders of 2 VERY VERY different groups,

Infact Bin hated Saddam Hussein (PS and don't forget, Saddam was able to get power because of American help,)

Your fight against Saddam and your fight against Bin are 2 different things, both had completely different agenda's, and both groups were fighting for very different things. If you are told that you started war on Saddam because of Bin's actions, I'm quiet scared as to what other things you are told?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that there is much too this theory as it just doesn't make sense, it sounds as if the Twin Towers has been used as an excuse for lot of other actions.

PS also remember Bush could barely do his own shoes, so whoever was behind this, it wasn't him (unless he is worlds great actor)

[HolyShadow]

PS also remember Bush could barely do his own shoes, so whoever was behind this, it wasn't him (unless he is worlds great actor)
He may not have been a good public speaker, but I doubt he's retarded.

[RationalInquirer]

Errrr, guys just so you know Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin are too different people/ leaders of 2 VERY VERY different groups,

Like FatFared said, it is very important not to confuse Osama Bin Laden with Saddam Hussein. Osama Bin Laden is the leader of the terrorist group Al-Queda. Hussein was the former President of Iraq. The US went into Afghanistan (they were already there since Clinton was in power. Remember the destroyed embassies?) shortly after 9/11 in 2001 to take down Osama. This was approved by the UN. Bush and other members of his adminstration personally ordered the invasion of Iraq in 2003. This was not approved by the UN. It was meant to depose Saddam as head of state in Iraq and culminated into possibly the buggest blunder of Bush's presidency.

That being said I don't accept any of these 9/11 conspiracy theories. I can watch Michael Moore's Fairenheit 9/11 or Zeitgeist and I would still be unconvinced. I have enough trust in the US Government not to perpetrate an attack on their own soil. It doesn't make sense. The consequences would have been terrible for America and any 'benefits' the government may have gained would have been short lived. This is really unlikely, even for the Bush Administration.

[Nutty]

I doubt very highly that Bush wanted to start two wars that would make him one of the most unpopular presidents in history
I doubt Bush cares that he is unpopular

How did they get there?

the prior weeks to 9/11 a company organized by Bushs brother Securam constantly evacuated the building apparently for "lighting difficulties"

Bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the wtc

"How did they survive the planes crashing into the towers?"

One plane does not destroy ever single bomb, plus ost of them were in the basement
according to Rodriguez

"Logically, someone would have noticed those were there, and gotten a message out about them. Why didn't this happen?" Alot of people noticed bombs were going off during the tragedy and talked about it in interviews


And fire from jet fuel burning upwards 2,000 degrees is sure to cause some things to ignite Scientific Fact an open jet feul fire can reach a maximum temperature of 1200F as long as the feul an oxygen supply is maintained

Where is the physical evidence of these bombs?
Many of the WTC rubble were cut diagonally exactly as you'd expect to see when thermite shape charges are used to demolish a building Sulfur residue was also found on the steal beams of wtc 1, 2, and 7

Also, conspiracy theorists tend to ignore the fact that Al Quaeda actually admitted it was them

Also people tend to ignore is that the Al Queda video confession video is extrmyl fake. Not only does the guy in the video look nothing like Bin Laden, but also Bin Laden is left handed, but in the video he writes a note with his right hand.

[HolyShadow]

well he cannot read or write and had an IQ of 111, I believe (though this may be wrong and it was long time ago I learn this)

and though yes this doesn't make him retarded, with the average IQ in Britain being 120 (sorry don't know what it is in USA) and 85% of population over 16 being able to read and write, would feel it is needed to be world leader, and does not point to a criminal master mind)
Well, I heard that his IQ was 125, which basically puts him at average intelligence.

[Fat1Fared]

well whatever it is, he is no mastermind, and was just a figurehead, your county was and is run by poeple behind scenes

(No not like Metal Gear Solid, or James Bond with some super-evil group which no one knows of, but it will be the advisor's/ other political power man, who make the ideas

[killshot]

I don't think someone read the link I posted...

If the construction manager states one plane isn't enough to topple down a humungus sky skraper I believe him

The statement he made, while not taken entirely out of context, refers to a hypothetical situation where a large plane is lost in the fog and collides with the towers at a relatively low speed. The towers were never meant to withstand a large plane flying at full speed directly into the tower.

Scientific Fact an open jet feul fire can reach a maximum temperature of 1200F as long as the feul an oxygen supply is maintained

There was more than jet fuel burning inside the towers. There is no way to tell what kind of debris was burning along with the fuel. It's reasonable to say that a building full of flammable material along with large quantities of jet fuel can exceed 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Many of the WTC rubble were cut diagonally exactly as you'd expect to see when thermite shape charges are used to demolish a building Sulfur residue was also found on the steal beams of wtc 1, 2, and 7

What you are referring to are photographs of beams that were cut during the cleanup. So called "truthers" like to use pictures like these as evidence.


Also people tend to ignore is that the Al Queda video confession video is extrmyl fake. Not only does the guy in the video look nothing like Bin Laden, but also Bin Laden is left handed, but in the video he writes a note with his right hand.

The video was just darker than the others because it was shot indoors. Its the same person.

[RationalInquirer]

One of the real reasons why 9/11 ever occured was because the United States had been meddling with the affairs in the Middle East for far too long. They should never have been overseas fighting alongside the Zionists for the lands in Palestine. This war stretches years back when the Americans first engaged in the Gulf Wars. The prolonged prescence of US troops in the mideast eventually culminated into 9/11. Osama even admitted that if it weren't for the escalating conflicts in the mideast, 9/11 may have never occured.

The deal is this: Powerful nations should never try and extend there sovereignty in warzones and start 'nation-building' as Bush put it. Nor should they start another war in the midst of an existing one (Iraq). But now since the the US is already there for a decade or so having to deal with two wars, the conflict with Israel and it's surrounding enemies, and a crumbling economy.

These issues are not going to right themselves anytime soon I'm afraid. The next years don't look well...

[DarkWarrior]

How did they get there?

the prior weeks to 9/11 a company organized by Bushs brother Securam constantly evacuated the building apparently for "lighting difficulties"

Bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the wtc
For argument 1, you need a source. Also, even giving you this, you need definitive evidence that they were planting bombs, not making theories with no evidence whatsoever.
Argument 2, uh, yeah, you would eventually move bomb sniffing dogs away from a collapsed building. They're not about to be of any use there, and with all the debris and dust clouds floating around, who knows what you're sticking in those dogs' noses by making them sniff around.


One plane does not destroy ever single bomb, plus ost of them were in the basement
according to Rodriguez

"Logically, someone would have noticed those were there, and gotten a message out about them. Why didn't this happen?" Alot of people noticed bombs were going off during the tragedy and talked about it in interviews
Ok, uh, if most of the bombs were in the basement, then why did the buildings start collapsing above where the planes hit? That makes no sense to say that bombs in the lower part of a building would cause a collapse several hundred feet up. Especially when there's jet fuel and other miscellaneous flammable material burning in a plane crash immediately below where the building collapsed.

Any other points were already addressed by Killshot...

[Just a Canadian Eh]

I think the pentagon was attacked by a nuclear missile, but the towers were hit by terrorists.

[maisetofan]

No.

No, no, no.

I decided to check out the site killshot linked to (which debunks the whole Zeitgeist movie), and I found this:Any idiot who's watched Yu-Gi-Oh! knows that the Egyptian Sun God is Ra.
Isn't that just the saddest thing you've ever heard? That a fictional anime has more mythological fact than this "factual" movie?Now this just pissed me off.
Anyone who's taken a basic Literature class and read plays like Oedipus Rex and Antigone knows more about Dionysus than Peter Joseph. I knew more about Dionysus when I was 12 than Peter Joseph does.
I'd go into detail myself but the guy on killshot's website covers it just fine:
And these are just snippets from the first part. If Peter Joseph can't even properly research ancient mythology, which can be read and understood much like a bedtime story, how the frick is he supposed to properly research the physics and conspiracy behind 9/11?

It's a very, very sad thing that people let this movie get out in the public. The ONLY REASON why people would want to believe this bullshit is because either
A. They're unreasonably anti-Bush
B. They're unreasonably anti-Christian
or
C. Both of the aboveBuddy, this movie wouldn't convince my dog.

Yeah i saw that movie and agree wholeheartedly with you sally, even though i am not a george bush fan at all.. People will believe anything if you slap the word "conspiracy theory" in front of it, not that the CIA do not cover a hell of a lot and having seen michael moores documentaries, which no doubt some people will dispute, i believe that the president knew of the warnings the Saudi's, his friends had given him, did he listen though? nope, thats what Mr moores documentary points out and he does have facts and pictures to back it up, but whether you believe it is up to you

[Orga777]

....Didn't the History Channel... and, you know, SCIENTIFIC FACT disprove all this garbage 9/11 conspiracy bullshit? When will people learn that Area 51 does NOT house an alien body, Bigfoot is NOT real, the Moon Landing DID happen, there was NOT someone in the Grassy Knoll, and 9/11 was NOT a government conspiracy.... Jeez... Conspiracy nuts... I hate them...

I think the pentagon was attacked by a nuclear missile, but the towers were hit by terrorists.

....Wow... just wow... Do you even know what a Nuclear Missle is and what it is capable of? You know, radiation and very destructive and all that? Yeah...