Free Will

[Tatterdemalion]

One argument I've heard a lot in several discussions in this forum is that humans should do such-and-such, or shouldn't do such-and-such because humans have free will.

Now, I'm just going to say, isn't this a rather bold assumption that people make? That is, what evidence do we have to support the asserion that humans have free will? I mean, there are several ideas that stand to the contrary. What about predestination? Or, even better, what about determinism?

Aren't we making a rather bold assumption in saying that humans have Free Will without first considering the other possibilities?

[MrsSallyBakura]

I think free will simply means that you're able to make your own choices without any supernatural force actually physically controlling you or forcing you to do anything.

You may be influenced to make choices by temptation or seduction or some other form of persuasion, but in the end, you're still the person who made the choice.

I don't believe in predestination because it's a rather hopeless situation in my opinion... I mean, why bother even trying in life if your future is already completely mapped out? What's the point in life if you're just there to be a puppet?

From what little I read about determinism (hadn't heard of it until now), it kinda sounds like you still make your own choices under determinism. So it's not so much that free will is being completely challenged under this philosophy, it's just limited.

My knowledge on this subject is limited (as I've not taken a Philosophy class before), but I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in anyways.

[killshot]

There's really no point in trying to establish whether or not free will is real. Even if we don't have free will, we have the perfect illusion of it.

I have often wondered how much the decisions we are able to make actually matter in the long run. If personality is a biological construct, then the choices we make about our lifestyle would be more influenced by a series of chemical reactions in our brain rather than any personal choice. If people are born with a natural inclination to think and behave a certain way, the decisions they make may only be a product of a biological process. The old saying that humans are slaves to their emotions may very well be true.

I would say that if humans don't have free will, we are all slaves to circumstance. Most kids today have their whole lives planned out before they are even born. People don't have much choice in deciding anything other than what job they want to spend the rest of their lives doing. Human lives are controlled by so many hidden factors that it would be ridiculous to assume someone had complete control of their own life. We make hundreds of potentially life-altering decisions everyday without even being aware of our options and yet many of our conscious choices are completely arbitrary. I'm sure everyone has had their share of "what if" thoughts. Most of my "what ifs" involve me becoming aware of a decision I made long after I realized I had a choice. I sometimes wonder how my life would be different if I could go back and reconsider my unconscious decisions.

I'm starting to ramble. Its best not to to dwell on things that are out of your control. The most you can do is try to be aware that you are making decisions everyday without even realizing it. Learn to recognize when you have options and try to make the best out of what you are given.

[Fat1Fared]

Well Put Kill

Free Will does not exist, yes you have choice to say yes and no to everything (take law out for min) but even this choice will decided by fate more than anything. This then means the structure of your life and your personal beliefs will highly affected as well, meaning already whether you say yes or no won't be 100% you. The culture, you are in right down to your parents affects you. (Know one girl who had never seen black person, till got to uni, meant she was racist, not hardcore, but still racist)

Then there is people round you, humans love to accepted and so will conform to get it and also love to be right, but with truth being nothing more than belief of truth, means nothing is true and so best way to seem right is to conform

Also who said Free-Will was free, there are 2 types of human in this debate, dominant and subservient (there self-explained really) and if you are a dominant in servile role, only way to break masters bonds is to fight

This means only way to be free is to live alone or in Anieokey (yes spelt wrong) and then it would only be free for strong, meaning end up back at start, like catch22

[xellos88]

I dont believe in fate or predestination. Even if our choices are influenced by many things the choice is always ours.

[magick]

DO what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law

[Fat1Fared]

xello, it is very true the final say is yours and book stops with you, but it is naive to say that no extrinsic forces affect you, as they do

A very simple example is that the way you react to a situation will be affected by personality and this personality will have been at less 40% made by your parents, (like it or not) and the way they bort you up, meaning they will unwittingly affect your final choice in the situation, meaning the decision cannot fully yours.

[mystra]

xello, it is very true the final say is yours and book stops with you, but it is naive to say that no extrinsic forces affect you, as they do

A very simple example is that the way you react to a situation will be affected by personality and this personality will have been at less 40% made by your parents, (like it or not) and the way they bort you up, meaning they will unwittingly affect your final choice in the situation, meaning the decision cannot fully yours.

I disagree to a certain degree. Those who aren't taught to thinke for themselves will be affected by their upbringing. Those who voluntarily choose to thinke for themselves will break away from the standard and actually have that free will you're debating here. As long as people follow the paths of and adhere to society they will never have free will.

An it harm none do as ye wilt.

[Tatterdemalion]

Those who voluntarily choose to thinke for themselves will break away from the standard and actually have that free will you're debating here.

But to think for yourself requires judgement, and all of the judgements you make are based on knowledge and experience. So even if you think for yourself, any thought you have is based on what you know, so your conclusions are predetermined by circumstance.

[mystra]

Predetermination implies something already set down in stone prior to a choice. You either base your choice on thought or not. I get what you say in that it's predetermined by someone's past experiences. But they're based on one person's circumstances and beliefs NOT what someone else dictated to them. When one makes a spur of the minute judgment on something based on nothing but a split second thought it's impossible for that to be predetermined.

Anyone choosing to make a decision on something they know nothing about is a fool. That's what we have politics for. XD

BTW most of what is determined in society to be free will comes from the Christian religion. There aren't too many other references (none that I've come across but I'm not ruling out there might be others) to "free will" outside of the religions connotations that implies. Also "predetermination" implies some sort of at least theological context as well.

So is this topic from a religious standpointe or just in general?

[Tatterdemalion]

Predetermination implies something already set down in stone prior to a choice. You either base your choice on thought or not. I get what you say in that it's predetermined by someone's past experiences. But they're based on one person's circumstances and beliefs NOT what someone else dictated to them. When one makes a spur of the minute judgment on something based on nothing but a split second thought it's impossible for that to be predetermined.


Determinism doesn't require that an outside force have control over someone's actions. Think about it, you don't choose what your circumstances are, but your circumstances determine everything you do, every judgement you make. So how are your decisions your own if your circumstances dictate what they will be before you even make them?

And you can't make a split-second judgement without at least some thought, and that thought is still based on something. You can give things some thought or less thought, buy you can't do something without having any thought whatsoever.

[Fat1Fared]

Tatterdemalion couldn't have put it better myself

Easy example, I am born middle class and so will have values based on what I have seen from my middle class upbringing, which will be different to people from lower class and upper class

Or I am English so see it in English way, unlike my mate who was born in Hong Kong

Yes we have will, but our personality/beliefs will be effected by what we see and understand

[xellos88]

Im not saying that "no extrinsic forces affect you" when making a choice. Im sating i dont believe in fate, i dont think that all of our choices were made for us or that we have a "destiny" already decided

[KuroStarr]

I value free will, I would rather be stupid on my own than have someone be stupid for me. If I let them make my decisions, then there will be nothing left to decide-then life would be pointless.

[RationalInquirer]

Every person in the world has free will, to do anything as they please. Of course, if you commit a crime, then you will be caught and reprimanded for it.
We also have to distinguish free will from human rights. There is often confusion between the two. Take for example the mistreated and deprived woman in the Middle East. They have as much free will as any of us. But no equal rights to exercise that free will without endangering themselves. Less they be subdued and punished by their misogynistic male partners.

Free will must also be distinguished from freedom of choice. Politicians use the words 'right' and 'free' all the time. But it has become quite obvious that most politicians just give us the illusion of free choice (since when did 'We the People' in the US Constitution has been truly upheld by the American body politic?). They have long since been brought by the true power behind government. The massive transnational Corporations and their benefactors.