Illegal Immigration

[Aerodynamic]

How would you deal with illegal immigrants if you were president?

I'd remove all the incentives (free education, free health care, etc.) and punish businesses that willfully and knowingly hire illegals, which would force illegals to deport themselves. I would then buiild a wall with top notch security and abolish birthright citizenship.

I don't want to hear the "we are nation of immigrants" rhetoric, because we are also a nation of laws.

[DaJacksterN]

Set them on fire. :V

[MrsSallyBakura]

LOL XD

Aerodynamic, that all sounds fine and dandy, but do you think that you would be able to implement all that? I'm not a fan of illegal immigration either but I don't think the issue is quite as clear-cut as some make it out to be... for one it feels like people forget that they're human beings when talking about this issue. I'm not going to make Mexico sound like the most terrible place in the world, but their living and job conditions aren't exactly ideal. Anyone who's ever been there (outside of the resorts and whatnot) can attest to that.

[DaJacksterN]

I say we tag 'em and bag 'em and send 'em straight to G. Bay! >:V

[Aerodynamic]

LOL XD

Aerodynamic, that all sounds fine and dandy, but do you think that you would be able to implement all that? I'm not a fan of illegal immigration either but I don't think the issue is quite as clear-cut as some make it out to be... for one it feels like people forget that they're human beings when talking about this issue. I'm not going to make Mexico sound like the most terrible place in the world, but their living and job conditions aren't exactly ideal. Anyone who's ever been there (outside of the resorts and whatnot) can attest to that.

1. No one is above the law. If a poor man steals to feed his family, he still broke the law.

2. It's not our fault Mexico is crap, neither is it our responsibility. If you want to come here with open arms, respect our laws and culture by coming here legally and assimilating.

[Fat1Fared]

1. No one is above the law. If a poor man steals to feed his family, he still broke the law.

2. It's not our fault Mexico is crap, neither is it our responsibility. If you want to come here with open arms, respect our laws and culture by coming here legally and assimilating.

Sally wasn't saying there above the law or that it is your fault Mexico is crap (though that can be debated, way off topic here) the point is, if someone doesn't like where they live, if there is an escape route, most will use it, and this is just an exstream example of this

However I'm going to go onto another point here, immigration is problem, but it is a very small one, now cannot say for USA, as don't know, but in UK there 60 million poeple, with around 550,000 immigrating here each year (legal/illegal) and around 350,000 leave each year, this means where getting 200,000 extra poeple each year, that is very small amount in end and in no covers the 3million unemployed, yet who will get blame, immigrants, as they are an easy target, which governments, can use to cover their own failings, even in an ecomonic crash like this one, once smoke clears, immigrants will still get blame

PS fact is very county is founded by immigration at some point and yours is one of most modern examples

[DaJacksterN]

It's not really the average Mexican's fault Mexico is crap either. :V

[killshot]

This is completely off topic, but didn't you (Aerodynamic) used to have an account by the name of TheRealFolkBlues? If not then you have a twin.

Back on the subject, there is nothing we can practically do about illegal immigration. Building a moat around the United States wouldn't decrease the amount of people who want to live in this country and would only cost us money we don't have. The real problem is that the countries these people are coming from (namely Mexico) aren't providing for them and they have to come here to earn a decent living. It's easy to lock ourselves behind a wall and pretend the problems of other countries can't affect us, but that won't solve anything. As long as the United States is worth living in, immigration is just something we will have to live with.

[Kanariya674]

Do you guys even realize how hard it is to get into the United States?

Immigrants illegally come here because it can take up to more than ten years to finally be admitted. Some don't have that time. When your country is living in poverty, and your children are in danger because of a violent group and/or disease, you get the hell up and out of there, illegal or not.

Of course I'm not speaking for anyone. But honestly, immigration? Pfft, big deal. These people come here to do the jobs Americans refuse to do, and they work for their families doing shitty jobs and there are no complaints.

And illegal or not, in ways these immigrants are helping our country run. Stealing your jobs? Cause they're working for it.

While I see in ways it's a problem, I don't think it's the biggest right now. Immigrants are always going to be there, if they are allowed to or not. They'll find a way, and I don't blame them.

[HolyShadow]

Do you guys even realize how hard it is to get into the United States?

Immigrants illegally come here because it can take up to more than ten years to finally be admitted. Some don't have that time. When your country is living in poverty, and your children are in danger because of a violent group and/or disease, you get the hell up and out of there, illegal or not.

Of course I'm not speaking for anyone. But honestly, immigration? Pfft, big deal. These people come here to do the jobs Americans refuse to do, and they work for their families doing shitty jobs and there are no complaints.

And illegal or not, in ways these immigrants are helping our country run. Stealing your jobs? Cause they're working for it.

Immigrants are always going to be there, if they are allowed to or not. They'll find a way, and I don't blame them.
^This.

Think about it this way: At some point, your lover's family was of illegal immigrants. If they were forced back because politicians wanted to use them as scapegoats, you'd fight tooth and nail for their right to be here. It shouldn't matter whether they're close to you or not. These immigrants are humans beings and should be treated as such. If you only treat the people close to you fairly, then you're the worst type of human being.

[Aerodynamic]

Immigrants illegally come here because it can take up to more than ten years to finally be admitted.

Amnesty, anyone?

Also, what part of "no one is above the law" is hard to understand?

These people come here to do the jobs Americans refuse to do,

Not only is this a blatantl lie (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/13/140946.shtml), but even if it was the case, then why are we giving them a free education?

Pfft, big deal.

I think clogging up our prisons, draining the economy, and enslaving taxpayer's who oppose them is a "big deal".

These immigrants are humans beings and should be treated as such

So are murderers. Does that mean we just let them off the hook?

[Aninamar]

Fine their asses for thousands of years in prison so that after they die, their family also has to rot in prison for it. They're worse than pedophiles, homosexuals, murderers, yaoi fanfic writers (people who draw yaoi should be exterminated the most painful way possible) and Tokio Hotel.

[HolyShadow]

Amnesty, anyone?

Also, what part of "no one is above the law" is hard to understand?

You've no compassion for other human beings. :/



Not only is this a blatantl lie (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/13/140946.shtml), but even if it was the case, then why are we giving them a free education?I see absolutely no proof of any of the things he's saying. Give me a full paper with actual sources instead of some racist pig making blatantly false accusations merely to disagree with Bush. Anyone can twist facts to support their own agenda.

I think clogging up our prisons, draining the economy, and enslaving taxpayer's who oppose them is a "big deal"."I think." No one cares about your opinion. Only fact.

So are murderers. Does that mean we just let them off the hook?Don't try to use this logic on me. I'm the master of the logic you're presenting. I'm the one that said because homosexuality happens in nature, WE SHOULD ALL GO OUT AND FUCK 8 YEAR OLDS BECAUSE THAT HAPPENS IN NATURE TOO LOL

[Aerodynamic]

You've no compassion for other human beings. :/

If a poor man steals bread for his family, he's thrown in jail. It's that simple. What about illegals like Jose Rodriguez who are convicted murderers?

I see absolutely no proof of any of the things he's saying. Give me a full paper with actual sources instead of some racist pig making blatantly false accusations merely to disagree with Bush. Anyone can twist facts to support their own agenda.

Immigrant is not a race. Upholding the law is not racist. Deal with it and get used to it.Don't tell me to use sources while you use name-calling and emotions for arguments while being intellectually dishonest by using the race card.

"I think." No one cares about your opinion. Only fact.

California's illegals are costing taxpayer's 9 BILLION dollars. (http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html and guess what? Taxpayers (such as myself) don't like it one bit (http://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/public-opinion/americans-oppose-rewards-illegal-immigra.html).

You do not reward lawbreakers, alone. Simple common sense.

Don't try to use this logic on me.

Because your brain is too small to understand it?

When your country is living in poverty, and your children are in danger because of a violent group and/or disease, you get the hell up and out of there, illegal or not.

That or the promise of amnesty, free education, and free health care.

[Kanariya674]

Amnesty, anyone?

Also, what part of "no one is above the law" is hard to understand?

How is anyone above the law? You can apply to get here, but for some families it doesn't just work that way. It's something to wait a year, but it's another thing to wait fifteen years just so you can get into America. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Not only is this a blatantly lie (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...3/140946.shtml), but even if it was the case, then why are we giving them a free education?

Do you have a job working at minimum wage? The idea of an 'American' is to go to college anyway, and become something with a degree. That is what pays. So none of those people are going to be working at a construction joint, now are they.

So are murderers. Does that mean we just let them off the hook?

Yeah, murderers are human beings. So they're put into prison based on their crime. And they are not left off the hook - many are deported. Then there are those who keep their identities low, and won't get caught. Good for them, I'd do it too.

And those who strictly abide by the "law" - they do lose their sense of compassion. I'm not willing to lose that. Your "law" is also something that screws over a lot of people every day because they don't want to look outside the box.

[HolyShadow]

If a poor man steals bread for his family, he's thrown in jail. It's that simple.

No, i'm pretty sure that some people do have a bit of compassion and won't press charges like you undoubtedly would. You're not only not compassionate, but also greedy. Good to know.

Immigrant is not a race. Upholding the law is not racist. Deal with it and get used to it. Don't tell me to use sources while you use name-calling and use emotion for arguments.And you still won't give me any real sources. Once again, anyone can twist logic to support their own agenda.

California's illegals are costing taxpayer's 9 BILLION dollars. http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html

You do not reward lawbreakers. Simple common sense.

Let us throw all druggies in prison, then. Maximum sentence. Life. Hell, lethal injection works for them. They already like shooting up, don't they?

What is right and what is the law isn't always the same thing.

Because your brain is too small to understand it?

*Reports*

[Aerodynamic]

No, i'm pretty sure that some people do have a bit of compassion and won't press charges like you undoubtedly would. You're not only not compassionate, but also greedy. Good to know.

Stealing is a crime and so is withholding information to a crime. You wouldn't like it one bit if someone went into your store and stole something, regardless of the reason. It's not "greed", it's called defending one's property and upholding the law.

And you still won't give me any real sources. Once again, anyone can twist logic to support their own agenda.

I don't see any sources in your posts. All I see is name-calling.

What is right and what is the law isn't always the same thing.

Irrelevant. You do not break the law to change the law.

*Reports*

facepalm.jpg

[Fat1Fared]

Amnesty, anyone?

Also, what part of "no one is above the law" is hard to understand?

You don't know much about law do you?

-well if we go past, hours worth of legal debate on this subject and the fact that governments make the law and so unless choose to uphold it, they are above it. There is the simple argument here, and that is that, it was humans who made the law, and so what makes those humans who made these laws anymore correct than ones breaking them, democracy? Well again lets over look the many flaws in a real democracy (not text book one as both different) and say still only humans voting, so still no better

And that is just simple rebuttal of that, in turth the law is too complicated and influenced to say such a single sentence and believe it holds true

Not only is this a blatantl lie (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...3/140946.shtml), but even if it was the case, then why are we giving them a free education?

Mate very few illegal immigrates are going to be able to get higher than low wage job and the reason they get it is simple they do it cheaper and better than locals, that is reasons these business's take risks, of employing them

As for schooling, well complicated point, as schools don't knowingly take them as ilegal-immigrates, they get in through net something hard to stop and can see why you would take offense to it, but look at other side, why do you think these poeple do it, now it is easy for you as someone who has probably had OK life to judge, but they have probably had it pretty crap and unamazingly want better for their kids

I think clogging up our prisons, draining the economy, and enslaving taxpayer's who oppose them is a "big deal".

Here, all I can say is, stop reading your prograndra filled paper mate:-

Draining your ecomoney=what few hundred thousand poeple do this do they?, no this once again governments using weak group to cover their own failings, now I will use Britian again, as know it better, here we blame these poeple the same way, yet if we look, illegal immigration costs us around 7million altogether, one billionaire covers that, however there is 40 billion pounds wasted each year on different systems....etc which are ether scraped in making or fail after making, which is bigger problem

So are murderers. Does that mean we just let them off the hook?

Murderers hurt poeple and are dealt with (if caught) and though it is a small problem to me, there is need to cap it, and so illegal immigrants who are caught will be dealt with,

However this is one where damage is in truth so small, don't need to deal with it in over top way, just limiting way, aspaically as though your progandra filled paper won't say it, there is need for illegal immigration and you will find, that your government only really takes limiting view to it, on purpose, enough to slow it, without stopping it

EDIT

Irrelevant. You do not break the law to change the law.

Actually a judge in UK broke hundreds of years of legal practice, to make Rape illegal here, and you know I think he was right to do it, Law is no where near as simple as you make it, why do you think legally trained poeple have to train for same amount of time as doctors

[HolyShadow]

Stealing is a crime and so is withholding information to a crime. You wouldn't like it one bit if someone went into your store and stole something, regardless of the reason. It's not "greed", it's called defending one's property and upholding the law.

It is your choice to report something that belongs to you as stolen or not. Another man might put the money for the bread into the cash register and call it a gift. No one loses any money but the kind-hearted man who had compassion for the poor guy who was reduced to stealing BREAD to feed their family.

I don't see any sources in your posts. All I see is name-calling.

Same as you, desupuff.

Irrelevant. You do not break the law to change the law.

...Actually, that's exactly what you do. Prohibition anyone?

facepalm.jpg
You called me stupid. You're supposed to call my idea stupid. Big difference. I apologize for calling you greedy and lacking in compassion, but it's basically true. However, you've no proof of my mental disabilities. On the contrary, my IQ is above the average, at a decent 135. In this case, you have presented a blatant falsehood for the sole purpose of insulting me. This is wrong, and I expect an apology.

[Oath]

hey I'm and illegal immigrant and yes my family pays taxes anf hope for tax cuts at the end of the year and all that tax crap.

In my opinion Areodynamic, you might just be another biased republican. but if i really meant that then i would be just as ignorant.

As for the 9 BILLION its causing California tax payers, the work that illegal's do there is worth well over 15BILLION in the vegie farms they work at, all them vegies found at your local supermarkets that come from Cali have a 90 somewhat percent of being grown picked and tended to by and illegal.

In a way hell yeah there are a lot illegals who dont pay taxes, but there are also a lot of illegals that buy social security numbers to get some citizen benefits and in doing so are forced to pay taxes.

Immigrants are the scoliosis back bone of America with it your bad but fixable, with out it your dead or paralyzed.

If i was prez i would put this off and look at a way to end the unnecessary war in Iraq, finish the non-media shown war in Afghanistan. Then use all that wasted money on war to then find a way to fix the economic problems then maybe look at the subject of immigration.

Oh by the way i basically drove by the border patrol officer in front of his face when I "hopped" the border to America.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Chinese illegal immigrants are also a BIG problem, and its not just Mexico n China. you've also got illegal Canadians, illegal Argentinean, illegal Brazilians, illegal Cubans, and a hell more.

[mystra]

first off i'm not racist. if you come to this country legally and correctly you're more than welcome no matter your nationality. second off if you're african american you're not native american so by your writing you don't belong here anymore than i do. thirdly the british english are the ones who took this land from the natives. as i'm not english at all i don't see how by what you said i can be deported.

if you're father came here LEGALLY i have nothing against him. i fail to understand though how my using what i know and deal with day in and day out makes me a rascist. but to each their own. i stand by my pointe and you've not given a valid one so have at it. i'll accept my being a rascist on any valid pointe you can throw at me. btw we are talking about illegal activity here and that has nothing to do with being kind, smart or otherwise. our laws are being ignored by the japanese, chinese, people from india, mexicans, arabs, croatians and the list goes on. i've dealt with people from all of those nationalities and regardless of the reason they came here they are still illegal and still do NOT belong here.

[HolyShadow]

first off i'm not racist. if you come to this country legally and correctly you're more than welcome no matter your nationality. second off if you're african american you're not native american so by your writing you don't belong here anymore than i do. thirdly the british english are the ones who took this land from the natives. as i'm not english at all i don't see how by what you said i can be deported.

Obviously, you have no idea what a mix is. You see, when people from two different cultures-- and I know that boggles your mind, that there are different cultures-- have sex, and have a child, then that child is a mix between them. At some point, I have an African ancestor, and at some point, I had a native american ancestor.

Not to insult you, but that's pretty obvious.

if you're father came here LEGALLY i have nothing against him. i fail to understand though how my using what i know and deal with day in and day out makes me a rascist. but to each their own. i stand by my pointe and you've not given a valid one so have at it. i'll accept my being a rascist on any valid pointe you can throw at me. btw we are talking about illegal activity here and that has nothing to do with being kind, smart or otherwise. our laws are being ignored by the japanese, chinese, people from india, mexicans, arabs, croatians and the list goes on. i've dealt with people from all of those nationalities and regardless of the reason they came here they are still illegal and still do NOT belong here.Well, you went ahead and insulted Oath for no reason other than him being Mexican (Or is he Canadian? Dunno...), so that alone makes you a racist. :/

Basically, you're saying, "[Insert racist remark here]" then two seconds later saying, "What? I'm not racist because I hate people because of race. That would be silly."

[mystra]

so you're a mut like the rest of america bravo for you and like i said by your first statement to me you deserve to be deported as well. you're not a full blooded native american therefore are not entitled to this land anymore than i am. and i in no way insulted Oath i just said if he/she is truly here illegally they deserve to be deported. no where in any of my statements did i pick on someone's race. nice try but you'll have to try harder in finding a reason to call me a rascist. (btw nice try at putting wordes around that i wrote no where. keep trying!)

[HolyShadow]

so you're a mut like the rest of america bravo for you and like i said by your first statement to me you deserve to be deported as well. you're not a full blooded native american therefore are not entitled to this land anymore than i am. and i in no way insulted Oath i just said if he/she is truly here illegally they deserve to be deported. no where in any of my statements did i pick on someone's race. nice try but you'll have to try harder in finding a reason to call me a rascist. (btw nice try at putting wordes around that i wrote no where. keep trying!)
I agree. Let us both call the native americans and have them decide which one of us deserves to be here. If you'll be deported, I'll be glad to. Are you big enough to own up to that or will you run away with your tail between your legs?

[mystra]

i'd willingly leave

except the US government took over all the natives land and shit as well. personally i'd rather just have a revolt and have everyone thrown out and give everything back to the natives.

[HolyShadow]

i'd willingly leave
Then do it. Right now. Leave if you don't think you're deserving of being here. The country will be better without you. After all, you're eating up all of our food, taking our welfare, or taking our jobs. GTFO!

[darkarcher]

This discussion has gotten into a personal argument and is therefore off-topic. Bring it back or I'm shutting it down.

[HolyShadow]

It may be a personal argument, but it is on the topic of illegal immigration. Americans are a nation of illegal immigrants. It's just that we took over and forced the natives to accept us, invaders, as being natives. In which case, I can safely argue that none of us are deserving of being here but the natives who, by the way, are to some degree MEXICANS! This is the argument I'm currently making.

[Orga777]

Sally wasn't saying there above the law or that it is your fault Mexico is crap (though that can be debated, way off topic here) the point is, if someone doesn't like where they live, if there is an escape route, most will use it, and this is just an exstream example of this

There is only an escape rout because our Borders are shit. Shit, our Border Patrolman can't even shot at drug dealers illegally smuggling drugs in the country (without killing him as well and shooting him in a non-mortally wounded area) without going to jail and the illeagal drug dealing getting money out of it.

However I'm going to go onto another point here, immigration is problem, but it is a very small one, now cannot say for USA, as don't know, but in UK there 60 million poeple, with around 550,000 immigrating here each year (legal/illegal) and around 350,000 leave each year, this means where getting 200,000 extra poeple each year, that is very small amount in end and in no covers the 3million unemployed, yet who will get blame, immigrants, as they are an easy target, which governments, can use to cover their own failings, even in an ecomonic crash like this one, once smoke clears, immigrants will still get blame

It is a serious issue here in the USA. We have over MILLIONS of illegal Immigrants here already and that 550,000 number a year is a lot if you just count both mixed immigration. We average over 500,000 yearly just illegal (that is down from 800,000 a couple years ago...)

And remember, for every job an illegal immigrant has, that is one less job for a civilian of the country.

PS fact is very county is founded by immigration at some point and yours is one of most modern examples

Yes. Except our immigrants that came in and built the United States came in through the front door.

[HolyShadow]

There is only an escape rout because our Borders are shit. Shit, our Border Patrolman can't even shot at drug dealers illegally smuggling drugs in the country (without killing him as well and shooting him in a non-mortally wounded area) without going to jail and the illeagal drug dealing getting money out of it.

America is sue-happy. This is another problem altogether.

It is a serious issue here in the USA. We have over MILLIONS of illegal Immigrants here already and that 550,000 number a year is a lot if you just count both mixed immigration. We average over 500,000 yearly just illegal (that is down from 800,000 a couple years ago...)

Ah, remember that your ancestors also illegally entered the country.

And remember, for every job an illegal immigrant has, that is one less job for a civilian of the country.

Okay, so... I assume that means that you're going to go and work for less than minimum wage at a farm? No? Gonna pick my cotton for me? Nah, I didn't think so.

Yes. Except our immigrants that came in and built the United States came in through the front door.
So are you saying that you can only be legal if you enter from the east coast? Well, then all of the west-coasters here are total trash to you, aren't they?

[Orga777]

America is sue-happy. This is another problem altogether.

Yes well... I agree here.

Ah, remember that your ancestors also illegally entered the country.

Actually, my ansestors did not enter illegally into the country... XD
The Puritans, etc. did. But my ansestors came over on a boat well after all that happened and well after the country was "founded." (in a sense of the word of course)

Okay, so... I assume that means that you're going to go and work for less than minimum wage at a farm? No? Gonna pick my cotton for me? Nah, I didn't think so.

If they weren't here, they wouldn't be allowed to higher citizens under Minimum Wage would they?

So are you saying that you can only be legal if you enter from the east coast? Well, then all of the west-coasters here are total trash to you, aren't they?

I think you missed the point... By "front door" I mean "Legally." Sneaking in the "back door" is coming in "illegally." Got it now? XD

[HolyShadow]

Yes well... I agree here.

THEREFORE I MUST DISAGREE WITH YOU >:V



Actually, my ansestors did not enter illegally into the country... XD
The Puritans, etc. did. But my ansestors came over on a boat well after all that happened and well after the country was "founded." (in a sense of the word of course)

Proooooooove it.

If they weren't here, they wouldn't be allowed to higher citizens under Minimum Wage would they?

And if that happens, then the price of cotton will go up to pay the workers. Think CEOs will really lower their own pay for the good of the company? Hell no.

I think you missed the point... By "front door" I mean "Legally." Sneaking in the "back door" is coming in "illegally." Got it now? XD
Legal and illegal are simply thoughts. They mean absolutely nothing. Why would someone say that someone can stand in location A, but if they stand in location B, they deserve to be shot at and their family raped? Especially if location B is 100 times better than location A. It just seems mean and unnecessary. Do you think that because location B is where you were born they have less of a right to stand there? Are you just some 5 year old saying, "Yeah? WELL I WROTE MY NAME ON IT SO ITS MINE!"?

[Tatterdemalion]

I say make immigration completely legal, everywhere.

There you go. Immigration is a necessary part of a country's economic growth and development, the only difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration is that illegal immigrants work for lower wages, have no protection of their rights, and can be deported at the whim of the government, irrespective of how long they've lived here, how much work they've done, etc.

As the generations progress, people are having fewer children, and growth based on the children of people born here isn't something that can alone sustain a country, and never has been. Look at a country like Japan, which is more than 95% ethnic Japanese, and is at 0% population growth, if it hasn't hit negative growth already, and you'll see not only what can happen to a country that doesn't have a strong flow of immigration, but how damaging it can be in the long term.

There are people who say that you need to stop illegal immigration because immigrants will take jobs away from citizens who were born here, and it's nonsense. In times of economic prosperity, when businesses do well and the market does well, unemployment is hardly a problem, and when the market goes under, unemployment goes up either way. And keep in mind, when America has had the highest unemployment rates, we've had the most restrictions on immigration. And during some of out best economic times we had programs to bring in immigrants from other countries. Is there a direct relationship between unemployment and immigration? Far from it.

[Orga777]

THEREFORE I MUST DISAGREE WITH YOU >:V

But it was your point. XD

Proooooooove it.

Meh, if you insist. I will get back to you by Sunday night with what I need though, so if you can wait, I will have it for ya.;)

And if that happens, then the price of cotton will go up to pay the workers. Think CEOs will really lower their own pay for the good of the company? Hell no.

That wold be true... Damn you and your good points on that aspect. XD
Of course, I have to wonder if the Minum Wage itself didn't mess with everything to begin with... How much cheaper would everything be without minimum wage in general? And a lot more people would have jobs... Just something to think about.

And I hope it doesn't turn into "everyone will be working for only a $1 an hour!!1!" crap. Because before Minimum Wage there were plenty of people still owning and buying cars, appliances, etc. and still working for pay in order to live in the environment they were living in.

Legal and illegal are simply thoughts. They mean absolutely nothing. Why would someone say that someone can stand in location A, but if they stand in location B, they deserve to be shot at and their family raped? Especially if location B is 100 times better than location A. It just seems mean and unnecessary. Do you think that because location B is where you were born they have less of a right to stand there? Are you just some 5 year old saying, "Yeah? WELL I WROTE MY NAME ON IT SO ITS MINE!"?

I am not for maiming them all.... XD

But I just don't think it is right for them to BE here, no matter what the reason. There was a lot of strife in Europe too when people started to immigrate here. And they still did it legally. And don't give me that crap about it being a right to jump the border. That doesn't fly with me at all. They want to come here, I have no problem with that at all. But do it right. Do you think it is as easy to get over the border and STAY there if any American tried that to get to Mexico or Canada? Hell no it isn't. They will deport your ass right away. Border Control is needed. It keeps the country itself safer in general, dispite what people are claiming. By checking people who are entering we find out about their backrounds, their health, their affiliations, etc. All of which keep us all in this country safer. It is important.

And do you want to know another reason why it is helpful to come in legally? Because it can filter out diseases easily into the environment that we live in. Why do you think Tuberculosis is significantly lower here in the States especially when compared to the rest of the world (and Mexico specifically)? That is only one example really, there are more. The more people coming in illegally, the less people that are being checked for these diseases, and the more it spreads.

[Fat1Fared]

Ogra

There is only an escape rout because our Borders are shit. Shit, our Border Patrolman can't even shot at drug dealers illegally smuggling drugs in the country (without killing him as well and shooting him in a non-mortally wounded area) without going to jail and the illeagal drug dealing getting money out of it.

Oh god, not more drug dealer stories, please mate live in real world, this isn't some stupid cop show, this is real life.

It is a serious issue here in the USA. We have over MILLIONS of illegal Immigrants here already and that 550,000 number a year is a lot if you just count both mixed immigration. We average over 500,000 yearly just illegal (that is down from 800,000 a couple years ago...)

And remember, for every job an illegal immigrant has, that is one less job for a civilian of the country.

Well mate, it does like a said cause some SMALL problems, but on whole like Oath, said solves for you, hell of lot more, do you really think your Government cares that much, no as it knows, they solves problems and give your government a scapegoat for its own mistakes

Also in Country of 125Million, is 550,000 really that big, no it isn't, as you find, have a 200,000 leaving each year as well.

Oh and lets not forget, that your birthrate of about 5million masks that a lot more

Yes. Except our immigrants that came in and built the United States came in through the front door.

well suppose if you consider, invasion and mass murderer, coming through front door yer, however mate, you will find it was millions of illegal immigrants, who built the USA for richer poeple who claimed the land

And remember, for every job an illegal immigrant has, that is one less job for a civilian of the country.

Read tatters statement and that will answer it quite well, (don't believe very stereotype your told by prongrandra

As for your heritage, be careful with that, whole countries have changed their histories to be more socially acceptable (england included) and many families in USA changed their heritage, aspically after war of independance, in order to be seen as more acceptable

[darkarcher]

Fared keep in mind that illegal immigration is a much bigger concern in America, so not everything is the same as where you are.

Also, in America drug dealers really are a big deal, not just some fictional blame-catcher.

[Fat1Fared]

Dark, that is a lie, it is a lie the whole western world is told, (that they have worlds biggest illegal immigration problem) it is merer moral panic and political puff, which governments use. Anyone who looks beyond media stories will know it is wrong, I was actually talking about it from an American point of view,

Immigration, both legal and Illegal is made out to be a big problem, as the poeple involved are in socially weak position to defend themselves, and so easy scapegoats, however governments won't do anything more than basic limiting on these things because they can use the illegal immigrates, not only as scapegoats, but cheap labor to plug whole your industrial gaps......etc

Now let me give you a funny example from England (just to show how much we use them) The Home secretaries office (basically guy in charge of kicking them out) had 7 illegal immigrates working in the office as cheap cleaning safe <DOH>

And before you say, it is worse for you, UK has same amount of illegal immigration as you, and were a smaller county, so in truth we should be more worried,

As for drug dealers, 1 not all your drug dealers are illegal immigrates and is different problem altogether.

2 In england drug dealing is major problem as well, which has nothing to do with illegal immigration (plus your ones buyying products, they sell, if we didn't buy, they wouldn't sell)

36% of british, admit to using illegal drugs, so there you go , (and that is ones admitting it)

[darkarcher]

Dark, that is a lie, it is a lie the whole western world is told, (that they have worlds biggest illegal immigration problem) it is merer moral panic and political puff, which governments use. Anyone who looks beyond media stories will know it is wrong, I was actually talking about it from an American point of view,

Immigration, both legal and Illegal is made out to be a big problem, as the poeple involved are in socially weak position to defend themselves, and so easy scapegoats, however governments won't do anything more than basic limiting on these things because they can use the illegal immigrates, not only as scapegoats, but cheap labor to plug whole your industrial gaps......etc

Now let me give you a funny example from England (just to show how much we use them) The Home secretaries office (basically guy in charge of kicking them out) had 7 illegal immigrates working in the office as cheap cleaning safe <DOH>

And before you say, it is worse for you, UK has same amount of illegal immigration as you, and were a smaller county, so in truth we should be more worried,

As for drug dealers, 1 not all your drug dealers are illegal immigrates and is different problem altogether.

2 In england drug dealing is major problem as well, which has nothing to do with illegal immigration (plus your ones buyying products, they sell, if we didn't buy, they wouldn't sell)

36% of british, admit to using illegal drugs, so there you go , (and that is ones admitting it)

You seem to have gotten the wrong idea from my previous post. I was merely stating that it's harder than you think to draw parallels between the UK and America due to geography. I was not attempting to make any statements as to the degree of illegal immigration or its perceived effects on society.

I only spoke about drug trading because you brought it up first. And yes, there is a substantial amount of drug trafficking across the American border in both directions, although that in no way means that immigrants are responsible for it.

[Fat1Fared]

ok, fair enough, well nothing to say more to say there then, other than it wasn't me, who bort up drug dealers, it was Ogra, as he keeps bringing them up, and I was saying they are not point here

[Aerodynamic]

The whole Europeans-Indians argument is completely pointless and irrelevant. There were no immigration laws back then to break anyway, the Indians shouldn't of gotten their asses beaten or sell land for a bead, and this would've been a third world country if the Europeans did not come.

[HolyShadow]

The whole Europeans-Indians argument is completely pointless and irrelevant. There were no immigration laws back then to break anyway, the Indians shouldn't of gotten their asses beaten or sell land for a bead, and this would've been a third world country if the Europeans did not come.
And you probably wouldn't exist. Hmm... maybe it WOULD have been a better world, then.

[HolyShadow]

That wold be true... Damn you and your good points on that aspect. XD
Of course, I have to wonder if the Minum Wage itself didn't mess with everything to begin with... How much cheaper would everything be without minimum wage in general? And a lot more people would have jobs... Just something to think about.

And I hope it doesn't turn into "everyone will be working for only a $1 an hour!!1!" crap. Because before Minimum Wage there were plenty of people still owning and buying cars, appliances, etc. and still working for pay in order to live in the environment they were living in.There are different business owners now. Do you really think these greedy businessmen won't force a situation in which would make them the most money while giving out as little as they can? That's the way they'll be.


As for your other point (That I didn't quote...), do you really think that immigrants are the reason for every single illness? I'm pretty sure it's our own immunity problems that are to blame. I mean, it's almost like saying that homosexuality causes AIDS/HIV. It makes no sense.

[Kanariya674]

The whole Europeans-Indians argument is completely pointless and irrelevant. There were no immigration laws back then to break anyway, the Indians shouldn't of gotten their asses beaten or sell land for a bead, and this would've been a third world country if the Europeans did not come.

..So basically, the Indians 'should of fought harder, those wussies?'

And fight they did, but they were still beaten. I don't think it's right to assume this would be a third world country if the Europeans wouldn't have come. You make the Europeans sound like heroes.

Honestly guys though, the argument about Native Americans having this land..yeah, it's true, it wasn't ours first. But look at us today - many civilizations were based on slaughter and conquest, and coincidentally here we are with several great nations. We all have pretty bad pasts, America definitely because we preach of 'equality' when we founded on pushing natives out, but it's too late now.

[HeartRyou]

I'm not clear on what's being discussed. :/
Immigration in the US and in Europe are completely different issues. When we talk about illegal immigrants in the US are we speaking of strictly Mexicans?

I think the Mexican-US immigration problem is a form of racism. There are many illegal immigrants besides Mexicans, many are very well educated and contribute to society. Getting refugee status isn't as easy as Americans like to believe it is.

And honestly, illegal immigrants do the work that no Americans want to do.

[Kanariya674]

I think the Mexican-US immigration problem is a form of racism. There are many illegal immigrants besides Mexicans, many are very well educated and contribute to society. Getting refugee status isn't as easy as Americans like to believe it is.

And honestly, illegal immigrants do the work that no Americans want to do.

Thank you.

[Orga777]

Oh god, not more drug dealer stories, please mate live in real world, this isn't some stupid cop show, this is real life.

Except, you know... that actually happened?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/19/bush-commutes-sentences-border-patrol-agents/

Well mate, it does like a said cause some SMALL problems, but on whole like Oath, said solves for you, hell of lot more, do you really think your Government cares that much, no as it knows, they solves problems and give your government a scapegoat for its own mistakes

No. I don't think the government cares. And it is a scapegoat that shouldn't exist as far as I am concerned. Because if Border Control was inforced AT ALL, then the morons in Congress will have nothing to bitch about and would actually have to do a real job.


Also in Country of 125Million, is 550,000 really that big, no it isn't, as you find, have a 200,000 leaving each year as well.

Oh and lets not forget, that your birthrate of about 5million masks that a lot more

It is a lot considering millions of American Taxpayers Dollars are going to support people that shouldn't be here and most definitely aren't paying taxes themselves (another problem with Illegals in the country).

you will find it was millions of illegal immigrants, who built the USA for richer poeple who claimed the land

Err... sorry if I don't buy that. Ellis Island ring a bell?

There are different business owners now. Do you really think these greedy businessmen won't force a situation in which would make them the most money while giving out as little as they can? That's the way they'll be.

Question... how are businessmen supposed to make money selling goods to everyone if no one has any money to buy the goods in question because everyone is underpayed?

As for your other point (That I didn't quote...), do you really think that immigrants are the reason for every single illness? I'm pretty sure it's our own immunity problems that are to blame. I mean, it's almost like saying that homosexuality causes AIDS/HIV. It makes no sense.

I didn't say it was the only cause. Just that it can spread faster if people aren't at least screened before coming into the country.

[HolyShadow]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/19/bush-commutes-sentences-border-patrol-agents/



http://www.foxnews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/19/bush-commutes-sentences-border-patrol-agents/)



foxnews (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/19/bush-commutes-sentences-border-patrol-agents/)



fox (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/19/bush-commutes-sentences-border-patrol-agents/)


I rest my case.

[Orga777]

I rest my case.

lolz... so I use an actual case and everyone discredits it because it is Foxnews I got the source.:thatface:

Fucking idiots... If you want I can go get another source if you want. There are plenty on the story of those two.

Oh, and last I checked, Fox may have an agenda and more bias to the Right, but it is still leauges better than CNN and BSNBC who would rather silence everyone on the Right.

[HolyShadow]

olz... so I use an actual case and everyone discredits it because it is Foxnews.:thatface:

Fucking idiots...
It was a joke, desupuff.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I think the Mexican-US immigration problem is a form of racism. There are many illegal immigrants besides Mexicans, many are very well educated and contribute to society. Getting refugee status isn't as easy as Americans like to believe it is.

This is true. I heard of a trial that happened in California against an immigrant of sorts (couldn't remember if he was legal or illegal) and they hired a Spanish translator, but the guy wasn't Mexican so he didn't understand a word of English or Spanish. They just assumed that he was Mexican.

And honestly, illegal immigrants do the work that no Americans want to do.

I think that this is more of a problem with our work ethic than anything, really. The minimum wage deal could be part of the problem as well, but I think if Americans didn't see it as a "dirt" job to be working the kind of jobs illegal immigrants do, then this problem wouldn't be as big.

I don't like the idea of there being illegal immigrants, and I don't believe they're above the law. But what practical way is there of dealing with this issue?

[DaJacksterN]

:V
There's no such thing as Illegal Immigrants. For you see, we don't even exist. We're all just dreaming that we exist.

....Are you a wizard?

[Tatterdemalion]

It is a lot considering millions of American Taxpayers Dollars are going to support people that shouldn't be here and most definitely aren't paying taxes themselves (another problem with Illegals in the country).

Yes, but keep in mind several things. First off, illegal immigrants who work off the books don't recieve many of the services our taxes go to pay, such as social security and the like. On top of that, illegal immigrants do menial jobs, and work for less money than American workers. As a result, because companies are able to pay much less for the grunt work, they make considerably more money, which overall makes it possible for them to pay more to the skilled workers, as well as making it possible for prices to be much lower than they would be if the labor was entirely done by documented American citizens.

Do I like it? No, because it's still exploitative, but at the same time you can't deny that it's positive for the economy. So the notion that somehow illegal aliens are taking away money from the American taxpayer is absurd, if anything by working for criminally lower wages they're saving money for the American citizen.

Err... sorry if I don't buy that. Ellis Island ring a bell?

Do you really think that everyone who came to America a hundred years ago was a European immigrant who came in through the front door? What about the Chinese, or the Japanese, who essentially built the West Coast, and the American railroad? They certainly didn't come here legally. And from the 1920s on America had a very strict quota system, restricting the immigration of people from Eastern and Southern Europe, even though this was around the time you had widespread military conflict and civil war in such countries. Laws against such immigration didn't prevent European refugees from fleeing to America, even though it was in many cases done illegally.

So no, "illegal" immigration isn't a modern phenomenon at all, it's as much a part of our history as any other immigration, if not more so.

Question... how are businessmen supposed to make money selling goods to everyone if no one has any money to buy the goods in question because everyone is underpayed?

I can answer that. The goods are actually made in China, and other less developed countries, in sweatshops where workers work 14 hour days and are paid next to nothing. The parts are then sent to America, where they are assembled by American workers, who, when they have jobs, still get paid very little. The goods are then sold for much higher prices than they cost to make, however they're still relatively low by market standards, however at the same time they are of a poor quality, and don't last very long. This way, the workers are still able to afford the product, shoddy as it may be, even though they still don't necessarily have enough money to support themselves in every aspect of their lives. The business owners, on the other hand, make an excessive profit, because the difference between the price of the goods and the combined cost of labor and materials is so great.

Also, something else to consider, even keeping things within the country, there are multiple strata of society. That is to say, even if a working class consists of people who work in a factory who can't even afford the goods they help produce, there are still professionals, skilled workers, white collar workers, people in the service industry, and a whole host of other citizens who make more money, and can afford the goods.

You can't assume that the producer is always going to be the consumer. In an ideal world, perhaps, however in reality more often than not this is not the case.

[Fat1Fared]

The whole Europeans-Indians argument is completely pointless and irrelevant. There were no immigration laws back then to break anyway, the Indians shouldn't of gotten their asses beaten or sell land for a bead, and this would've been a third world country if the Europeans did not come.
Reply With Quote

1=So to you because they "COULD" have ended as a third world country, trying to destroy their way of life is ok???????

2=It does have point, and that point is, that all countries and social movements and social advance and soical.....etc COME FROM IMMIGRATION, and the earth my friend is only GETTING SMALLER.

Except, you know... that actually happened?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...patrol-agents/

Walks away very slowly, Whistling

No. I don't think the government cares. And it is a scapegoat that shouldn't exist as far as I am concerned. Because if Border Control was inforced AT ALL, then the morons in Congress will have nothing to bitch about and would actually have to do a real job.

It is a lot considering millions of American Taxpayers Dollars are going to support people that shouldn't be here and most definitely aren't paying taxes themselves (another problem with Illegals in the country).

There is a reason, I have done this together and Bolded Millions, you do know that 1 Billionaire, alone will pay around 15millions dollars in tax, so trust, few million is nothing to USA.

Now, I know you live in this nice prograndra filled world, where believe USA and government are defenders of Democracy....etc, but you want to know what a politican really is, (this is straight from mouth of real one) they are glorified accountants, nothing, they balance the books, if something is ecomonically "Viable" pretty much, no matter what it is, it is ok, if it is econmonically unenviable, bye-bye birdie

And that why, some laws get enforced, others don't

Immigration costs few million, so what, it brings BILLIONS, for reason already explained by my friend tatters, so no need for me to rewrite it all. And to add to this, it gives the Governments a GET-OUT-OF-JAIL-FREE card, every time there is problem. Its a bloody christmas present to them.

And before say, this politican said this or that, please remember they do lie, quite a lot

Lets take Iraq war, I was told by several Americans that was started by Twin Towers, so it wasn't for Oil and the ecomonic kick that war makes, then!!!!

I think is infact one of best examples, of economically viable action. War costs billions, makes Trillions, same thing, do the politicans care about the few Soldiers who get killed along way, no, their just low grade things, which if survived in truth would go on to be economically unenviable

Err... sorry if I don't buy that. Ellis Island ring a bell?

As JW, has said you don't need to buy it, it is true, they will be odd part made by few of orginal "LEGAL" (I put that in commers for reason) poeple, but on whole, no it isn't, even that railway, your so proud of, was built on back of illegal immigration

Question... how are businessmen supposed to make money selling goods to everyone if no one has any money to buy the goods in question because everyone is underpayed?

You really have no understanding of business, do you?

However again Tatters, has done good enough job answering this question, so no point me wasting time, putting same thing, just remember it isn't simple thing of Man builds something, for pay, then buys it.

I didn't say it was the only cause. Just that it can spread faster if people aren't at least screened before coming into the country.

I bet you blame immigration for the Iraq war as well, (I mean you blame it for everything else <facepalm>

Sally

I think that this is more of a problem with our work ethic than anything, really. The minimum wage deal could be part of the problem as well, but I think if Americans didn't see it as a "dirt" job to be working the kind of jobs illegal immigrants do, then this problem wouldn't be as big.

I don't like the idea of there being illegal immigrants, and I don't believe they're above the law. But what practical way is there of dealing with this issue?

Sally, you should love immigration, its like provety, it helps US keep our high standard of living, another one of those nasty, inconveniencing trues, most would rather not think of and so allow themselves to eat up the lies, as though I blame the governments for doing this, we are equally at fault, for allowing it, without charge

JS

There is no practical way of dealing with this issue, because for one, it's not an issue. What I don't get is how so many of you can point the finger at the immigrants and not the people who employ them.

Because, JS, as one english Minster once said:-

The serect to running, a good county is Progandra, Progandra, and Progandra

We may not have official politicans for it now, but that is in short, the way, the world is run,

Immigrates are socially weak, and easy scapegoats, who cannot afford to fight back from injustice, as:-

1=No money
2=Need to keep their heads low

I mean, really it is an uneven trade with them, but one they know still gives them more than what would have if didn't take it.

Businessman however, are also runners of country, so not going to blame themselves or their mates and they are ones who can easily defend themselves,

Leaving us in one of these lovely positions of:-

Those who know, don't care, those who care don't know

[HeartRyou]

It's true, citizens of a country are always willing to have "racially inferior" immigrants work for low wage until they decide that they are an inconvenience. Look at the Turks in Europe. Even Israel, another "democratic beacon." The Jews of the Indian subcontinent have been wanting Israeli citizenship for years. Why are there new supporters now? Because they want the Indians to replace the Palestinians, whom they consider a "security threat," as cheap labor. It's not just isolated to America.

[maisetofan]

get your facts right before posting racist yet again anti Semitic statements, honestly this site is rife with racism, in all forms, and i am not having a go at you heartryou i mean the users in general

i mean everyone loves the japanese and the anime/manga but its okay to dislike jews, american indians, arabs and other minorities

[HeartRyou]

get your facts right before posting racist yet again anti Semitic statements, honestly this site is rife with racism, in all forms, and i am not having a go at you heartryou i mean the users in general

i mean everyone loves the japanese and the anime/manga but its okay to dislike jews, american indians, arabs and other minorities

How was anything I said racist?

[maisetofan]

it was anti semitic

[DaJacksterN]

I still say we should set all illegal immigrants....on fire! :V

[Adam7]

Holy shit! I just came on this site to watch YGOTAS... Nah, only joking. Im quite surprised to see people actually taking immigration seriously. Especially on an anime fandub website! You guys should come to England and sort out our government, you'd do a better job than Gordon Brown

[HolyShadow]

it was anti semitic

Let's see...

It's true, citizens of a country are always willing to have "racially inferior" immigrants work for low wage until they decide that they are an inconvenience.

This person isn't calling them racially inferior. He's saying that those people call them racially inferior.


Look at the Turks in Europe. Even Israel, another "democratic beacon." The Jews of the Indian subcontinent have been wanting Israeli citizenship for years. Why are there new supporters now? Because they want the Indians to replace the Palestinians, whom they consider a "security threat," as cheap labor. It's not just isolated to America.I don't believe this specific person wants this and believes this. He's speaking from their perspective.

Simply stating a viewpoint based on what you think another wants in this manner may not be wise, but it's definitely not racist. After all, it has been said before that all christians hate homosexuals, and yet no one seems to think that's prejudiced at all except for the christians. Blacks call whites crackers all the time. That's not racist. Perez Hilton basically called Miss California a slut, and several people seem to think that's fine.

Face it. There's a lot of prejudiced people in this world that a tiny remark like that is more "Truth" and less "Prejudice."

[HeartRyou]

get your facts right before posting racist yet again anti Semitic statements, honestly this site is rife with racism, in all forms, and i am not having a go at you heartryou i mean the users in general

i mean everyone loves the japanese and the anime/manga but its okay to dislike jews, american indians, arabs and other minorities

If my facts are wrong then you should correct me. And stating facts is not anti-Semitic, it's being factual.

[IamMcDoob]

Well after reading through this thread I think it's safe to say that no matter what sources people try and post too back up what they are saying, people will still just shrug it off and claim it to be biased or unreliable.

So, how about for a change of pace, some personal experience?

I've been living in Glendale Arizona for just a hair under 14 years now. Having had to deal with these illegal vermin on a personal level for so long has given me the opinion that they are scum and should be treated as such. Having said that, I understand that not all of them are and that some actually do make a positive difference to this country blah blah blah. Well from my experience it's not enough to justify the negatives. I firmly believe we as a country could manage without these leeches. Everyone says they take the jobs no one wants and will work for next too nothing. Bullshit. I have three close friends who are in the window washing business. They're out there in the 100+ degree heat busting their asses to earn their living. And all those rumors you hear about them working for next to nothing are exactly that, rumors. The groups of them that loiter outside businesses looking for work are known too demand $10 an hour minimum. How many of you make $10 an hour at your job? hmm? And by the way, that $10 an hour is in cash, so it's non-taxable. Arizona is in terrible shape financially. Any tax dollar they can get is badly needed. Do these illegal pieces of shit care? No of course not. But when one of them attempts to cross the border and hurts themselves, they get taken to OUR hospitals where OUR tax dollars pay for their treatment. So nice of them too repay us.

I could go on all day but I wont. Bottom line, you can read what you want in the news but it's an entirely different situation in real life. Personally I'd love nothing more than too string a few of these scum up by the border as a warning to the rest of em. Fix your own god damn country if it is such a terrible place, don't come over here and drag us down with you.

Ok, rant over. I'm now braced for people to assault me as a person and call me a racist, uncaring prick, so go for it.

[HeartRyou]

Iam, you are aware that there are non-Mexican illegal immigrants as well, right?

[darkarcher]

Not to assault your views, but please clean up your post to not use degrading name-calling.

[IamMcDoob]

Yes, but I don't have any experience dealing with them, so I decided to skip over them since I would have nothing credible to say.

Edit: Sorry dark, I get a little fired up about this subject. I'll tone it down in the future.

[HolyShadow]

Bottom line, you can read what you want in the news but it's an entirely different situation in real life. Personally I'd love nothing more than too string a few of these scum up by the border as a warning to the rest of em. Fix your own god damn country if it is such a terrible place, don't come over here and drag us down with you.

Cuba.

Anyway, if they could fix it, don't you think they would? They don't want to break the law. They just have to in order to lead a better life.

It's amazing. This country is founded on freedom, yet we get so pissy when others want to be free too. We make it nigh-impossible to get here legally and then get pissed when they come here illegally.

[Tatterdemalion]

I have three close friends who are in the window washing business. They're out there in the 100+ degree heat busting their asses to earn their living.

So they're out there working and earning a living? If that's the case, and your friends are getting paid to work hard jobs, how is illegal immigration a problem? If they had lost their jobs to illegal immigrants, if they were all unemployed that would be one thing, but overall, how does the fact that your friends have hard jobs and are making money help your argument?

The groups of them that loiter outside businesses looking for work are known too demand $10 an hour minimum. How many of you make $10 an hour at your job? hmm?

You say not to believe news reports, which have actual research, figures, and statistical information, and instead to believe you, because you live in Arizona. So, my question to you, is how exactly do you know this? You clearly don't seem to be on very good terms with immigrants, so I doubt your illegal immigrant buddies told you...so what's your source? Do you hear this from people who work in various industries hiring the immigrants? Or is this the sort of thing that everyone knows, even though nobody knows how they know it?

See, this is what's been going on since pre-Revolutionary times, it's a system devised by the upper class to prevent the underclass from ever getting power, by pitting various members of the underclass against each other. That is to say, a white man works a shit job, gets bad pay, and overall works hard but struggles to get by and support himself. Now, if this was all there was to it, then over time these workers would start getting together and wondering why it is that their jobs and their lives are so bad, and would start demanding more from the powers that be.

So, to deal with this problem the "powers that be" find a scapegoat, and pitts different factions of the underclass against one another, in order to prevent them from ever uniting against the upper class. That is, if a white man works a shit job, gets bad pay, and overall struggles to make a living, but he sees a group of Mexicans working, he allows himself to believe that the Mexicans are responsible for his job being so bad. And this not only allows him to place the blame on something he can see, something tangible, but overall it allows him to channel his frustrations, and prevents any sort of revolutionary ideas getting into his head.

The same thing was going on in pre-Civil War times in the American southeast. Poor white farmers during this time didn't do very well economically. Why? Because of the plantation system, which held a giant monopoly on agriculture that shut out virtually everyone else. Now, the way that this was dealt with was by using racism to make Black slaves a scapegoat. That is to say, poor farmers blamed the slaves for taking away their business, and actually believed that slaves were out on the plantation living the high life, because, in all honesty, when you're poor and you see a group of people who are always employed, always have a place to live, and always have food, it seems pretty appealing. Were the slaves actually better off than white farmers? No, of course not. Who was really responsible? If anyone it was the plantation owners. But the myth of slaves being better off was enough to keep racism alive, keep the underclass pacified, and delay any sort of revolutionary action like, say for example, a Civil War.

It's the same thing today. Is the American working class doing well? No, not at all. But at the same time, is this because Mexican immigrants are living the high life, throwing around lots of cash, and getting a free ride in life? Not in the least.

It's easy to try to blame something you can see for your problems, but at the same time what you see is very rarely what you get. Things are tough, yes, but things are tough for everyone. If businesses stopped hiring illegal immigrants and started hiring nothing but American workers, would wages, employment and working conditions suddenly improve? It's an absurd fantasy. Working conditions have always been shit for the American worker, in times of illegal immigration, in cases of legal immigration, and in times with little to no immigration. And there have from time to time been scapegoats, such as Blacks, women, Europeans, Mexicans, and everyone else under the sun. But what it all comes down to is that no matter who's working, American businesses do as little as they can for their workers, and find the cheapest labor possible, whatever those workers' nationality, ethnicity, gender or legal status may be. And when cheap labor isn't cheap enough, then they cut costs somewhere else, namely, ironically enough, in the number of people they employ. Overall, things have been shit for the working class for the past 200 years, no matter how the workforce changes. So why should you think that all of a sudden if we got rid of illegal immigrants things would be better?

So who's really responsible here for things being bad? Is it the Mexican immigrants, who risk their lives to flee dire poverty, come to America and work difficult, dangerous jobs in which their safety is considered by no one, recieving virtually no aid or assistance from the government, their employers, or anyone else for that matter, and facing the likelihood of sudden deportation at any time? Or is it the businesses who avoid hiring American workers because with illegals they can cut corners, don't have to pay taxes (that's right, the businessed don't pay taxes), can overall save money, and don't have to worry about any sort of workers' rights, in order to make a considerable amount more money, which overall doesn't even benefit the consume so much as it benefits the company's white collar employees?

I've taken you this far, I'm not going to hold your hand the rest of the way. You can make the decision for yourself. Think what you will,

[darkarcher]

^^^

This post right up here by Tat seriously ends this thread.

*shrugs* I'm sure someone will want to disagree.

[Fat1Fared]

*shrugs* I'm sure someone will want to disagree.

Well, I feel I need to disagree here :D

LOL, no seriously, Tat has pretty much put the same as what I have put, only as always, I think he puts it better than me,

-Scapegoats and cheap labor

[HeartRyou]

Simply stating a viewpoint based on what you think another wants in this manner may not be wise, but it's definitely not racist.

Oh, and I forgot to counter that quote earlier but what I wrote was based on a direct quote from some Israeli hotshot. I didn't change the wording at all.

[caps]

to stop illegal immigration we should fly over mexico and drop a million tacos from an airplane so they will never want to leave. i have spoken. ;)

[Checkmate]

SO MANY QUOTES! what i would do if i was PRIME MINISTER (i is Canadian) about illegal immigration is nothing because i live in Canada and honestly no one really wants to come here =( but if we did have a lot of illegal immigrants that would be OK because the US has 10x more people than Canada does and Canada's bigger. we could use the company lol.

[Fat1Fared]

OK, know this is bit of nerco, but what do British on here think when Mss Scoltand (not a pun) the Attourny General was found to be hairing an illegal immrgient,

Now can we we accept that this isn't worse crime in world, but surely her position is unsavable, aspecially when we remember she pushed through the legisation which she actually breached and what does it say when one of heads of our legal state breaches the law and doesn't this show that goverments really don't care about illegal immgration (like I said from start)

[Lauren]

It's amazing. This country is founded on freedom, yet we get so pissy when others want to be free too. We make it nigh-impossible to get here legally and then get pissed when they come here illegally.

I just don't like that in my state, which heavily relies on tourism during the Spring and Summer months, I'm somewhat "required" to speak Spanish and I have been rudely spat at for not knowing it. :\

[Fat1Fared]

I just don't like that in my state, which heavily relies on tourism during the Spring and Summer months, I'm somewhat "required" to speak Spanish and I have been rudely spat at for not knowing it. :\

Well I cannot speak about the spitting and if that happened it is very sad and stupid, however that sort of thing can happen across the board sadly and doesn't mean all poeple of any ethic group are bad

but with the speaking spanish thing, ask yourself how many countries teach their people english in order to help with tourism or business and then you may feel better ^_^

=In hong kong, they are made to learn, Mandarian, Canterise, English and one other language by Law and if they fail at this they will struggle to get any form of work, this amazes me, when I think that I struggled to just learn Manderian, (and when consider that those are seen as 3 of hardest languages to learn, it becomes even more amazing)

I know you may feel unfair pressure, but what you are speaking of isn't that big a deal now days and lots of countries/work places expect you to know another language now, whether it is for tourism, buisness or just because looks good on their records

[Lauren]

I know you may feel unfair pressure, but what you are speaking of isn't that big a deal now days and lots of countries/work places expect you to know another language now, whether it is for tourism, buisness or just because looks good on their records

I don't feel under pressure. Lol. I'm not going to learn Spanish just because people automatically think I'll cater to their needs. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I went to France and made French people talk to me in English because I didn't "feel" like learning French. However, this is not my case. I'm probably never going to leave the United States, and if I do, I'll go to another English speaking country.

Not all careers require a second language. It looks good on resumes, sure, but how many Americans (refer to the Americans being dumb thread) do you really think want to learn Spanish, whether in school (because it is an easy language to learn compared to Mandarin, let's just say) or in the workplace? I doubt many people respect the Mexican culture other than the food in the United States anyway.

For the record, I am learning French. :wink:

[Fat1Fared]

I don't feel under pressure. Lol. I'm not going to learn Spanish just because people automatically think I'll cater to their needs. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I went to France and made French people talk to me in English because I didn't "feel" like learning French. However, this is not my case. I'm probably never going to leave the United States, and if I do, I'll go to another English speaking country.


Well why you would never want to leave USA so won't be hypocrite is something I couldn't understand, I have already been to 7 (9 if include wales and scotland) different countries and these are best times in my life and as long as I get accepted for Grant, I will be going on a 6 week course in Chinra at end of this year, then spend a further 2 weeks in Hong Kong, and I cannot wait, but I suppose this comes down to personal opinion and is going off track.

I think you are missing my point, the fact you said you are somewhat reqired to speak it shows you feel pressure, you just seem to want to openly reject that pressure which is different, however my point was that I don't think really is problem here and that this isn't actually a big thing in modern globalized world and you will find 9/10 jobs will want you to have second language (not real stat)

And infact is it that big a problem that you do cater to others needs? I mean learning some of another langauge to show respect to another cutlure and help with job prospects isn't that bad a thing to do, is it?


Not all careers require a second language. It looks good on resumes, sure, but how many Americans (refer to the Americans being dumb thread) do you really think want to learn Spanish, whether in school (because it is an easy language to learn compared to Mandarin, let's just say) or in the workplace? I doubt many people respect the Mexican culture other than the food in the United States anyway.

For the record, I am learning French. :wink:

Now going to sound condescending here, but anyway, the one thing I have noticed with my limited exp of United States citizens is that they have this view, if everyone else does something silly then I makes ok for me to do it as well o0

I mean just because 90% of US decides not respect another county, isn't a good defence for you doing it as well

I get people making fun of me all time because 2 of my best friends are Asian, would that stop me being friends with them and wanting to understand their culture more?

[Lauren]

And infact is it that big a problem that you do cater to others needs? I mean learning some of another langauge to show respect to another cutlure and help with job prospects isn't that bad a thing to do, is it?

Ask that to everyone in the United States. Lmfao. I understand that learning another language is showing respect to its culture, but if you didn't want to learn the language in the first place and you were "required" to, there's a good chance you'll have a negative view towards it. Not to say it couldn't be a positive view either, of course.

No, a lot of people have it set in their minds that their parents are supposed to do everything for them their entire life, that blaming other people for their own problems will make everything better, etc. Same thing goes for catering for people who don't respect the American culture and just want to live the "American Dream."

I mean just because 90% of US decides not respect another county, isn't a good defence for you doing it as well

Actually, I never said I didn't respect another country. I'm trying to talk away from my personal views into what the American people are generally used to hearing about illegal immigrants, hence they have less respect for other countries.

I get people making fun of me all time because 2 of my best friends are Asian, would that stop me being friends with them and wanting to understand their culture more?

I'm not sure where you're going there. xD

[Fat1Fared]

Ask that to everyone in the United States. Lmfao. I understand that learning another language is showing respect to its culture, but if you didn't want to learn the language in the first place and you were "required" to, there's a good chance you'll have a negative view towards it. Not to say it couldn't be a positive view either, of course.

No, a lot of people have it set in their minds that their parents are supposed to do everything for them their entire life, that blaming other people for their own problems will make everything better, etc. Same thing goes for catering for people who don't respect the American culture and just want to live the "American Dream."


I know what your saying and can see point making, but doesn't mean their reaction is good or positive one

with second statment, seems to be a negative point about 2 sets of poeple lol and very large generalisation

And with second set, I agree when another county should respect that county, but the poeple in that county will be expected to cater to you, to make want to go there, and nothing wrong with that, just good buisness. Maybe just US is used to being catered for, rather doing the catering (sorry that last bit was joke, couldn't resist)

Though I have to say, I think the that the poeple you will be on about will be as far from American Dream as can get


Actually, I never said I didn't respect another country. I'm trying to talk away from my personal views into what the American people are generally used to hearing about illegal immigrants, hence they have less respect for other countries.


Sorry misunderstood you there, however now going to onto illegal immigrants rather tourists, but again negative reactions from both groups is hardly positive way to go


I'm not sure where you're going there. xD

Just saying that though are small sections of my own cutlure that wish for me to reject other cutlures, I don't as think wrong to do that in this globalized world