philisophical discussion [Archive] - Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Abridged Series

HolyShadow

07-27-2009, 06:56 PM

I'm of the opinion that Jesus is a made up entity. I haven't done the research to offer anything more than my personal opinion, but I think that he more than likely never existed.

However, I've heard many people claim to have proof that Jesus was in fact an actual person. Assuming they are correct, I think that the stories about Jesus were embellished and only loosely based in fact. For instance, instead of feeding thousands of people with an infinite amount of food, maybe he just gave someone a loaf of bread. If I remember correctly, nothing was written about Jesus until several years after he died. Stories of his exploits could have easily been fabricated since no one who witnessed Jesus would have been alive.

I suppose he could just be a liar with a god complex or even a schizophrenic. No one really knows and I for one don't really care.
Jesus was real, and he was a revolutionary. He fought against the romans in order to allow pagan followers that convert to Judaism to become priests. The romans didn't want them to become priests for a few reasons, mostly related to how they didn't want half-breeds of sorts to be of the same social class as them.

Jesus was a hero to a large group of people. That's all. Now, could he have been sent by God? I honestly don't know, and I don't know the people that wrote the bible well enough to make that assumption. I don't trust what most books say, so I won't trust this one.

I believe there have been many prophets and that the reason Jesus was treated as a Messiah is because of the religious aspects of the time. They weren't strict believers of science. Heck, only recently have we began to shift to a more scientifically-based culture. In that case, people saw him as a Messiah x numbers of years after the fact because he was a hero. When people think hero, they think Hercules or Superman nowadays, not Jesus. They think of beating up the bad guys, not being kind to the people around us. So if we had a Jesus in the past 200 years, and we wrote stories about him, they would be stories about someone who walked in, beat up the bad guys, and made peoples' lives a whole lot better, even if the story is exaggerated.

That's why I say to Americans, George Washington is like Jesus. A true hero. The difference is, with a more science-based lifestyle taking hold of our society over the past x number of years, we don't call him a messiah. We just call him a hero. A hero is more scientific than a messiah. Of course, there's also Einstein, a sort of messiah in the scientific world. But we have another term for that, too: Genius.

There can be no messiah in a scientifically-based culture, and so, we look back to when messiahs and prophets were easily made: When the world was generally God-driven.

Now, is this wrong? I don't believe so. An important part of the world is learning from the past. If you don't do that, we'll end up in a relentless cycle of stupidity. However, at the same time, prolonging an exhausted style of "I hate you, you hate me" is ignorant and pointless. Simultaneously, you have to realize that not everyone will love or even accept each other. After all, these people that say that we should love each other obviously don't love people that hate them. For example, gays say we should all be equal and nice to each other, and we shouldn't hate each other for such ignorant reasons as sexual preferences. Yet at the same time, they hate people that say it's an affront to God because they've been taught a certain way and have a different belief system. In that case, both hate each other because they're different. That's all.

There's a lot of controversy on that subject because both sides want to be right, but that's the absolute truth. They both hate each other because they are different. Neither like to be compared to the other because each individual thinks they're different than anyone else. And they're right; they're unique: Just like everybody else.

Now, back to the original topic: Was Jesus real? Yes. Jesus is a common boys name. It's related to the name Joshua. In that case, there's a high chance that there was a man named Joshua with those particular ideals that Jesus had. It's probably also possible that he politically fought against the romans to some extent. The romans were big and bad at the time, so it's also a distinct possibility that they publically executed him. He could've had a large following; after all, he fought for a widely-believed cause. He was a bad boy and wanted equality. So is it possible that people went a little far in calling him a savior? No, it's not. Because he was a savior: To a select group of people.

I might have had a few-- or a lot-- of my facts skewed, but the gist of it is still generally right: Jesus was a rebel, and people exaggerated stories of him.

After all, if God really did think mankind could drive away sin by themselves, why would he send his son down to earth to die for their sins? It's illogical, and it's a plot hole. The bible has many of these.

Serial Ulyssicider

07-27-2009, 07:55 PM

Lets not get into the whole 'Plot Holes of Biblical (badum-tish) Proportions' thing on this thread though, that would be purely religious discussion, not philosophical.
Once again though, I do agree with SR's points above on Jesus.
I have no doubt that he did exist, just like I have no doubt that he had some very good PR people, although (this is just me writing and musing at the same time here) I am unsure of wheather he was the charismatic leader he appears to be when stripped of the general mystique. The whole 'Judas' situation, in fact, makes a lot more sense when you think of Jesus as a normal (ish, possibly quite extraordinary, or, like I said, maybe just with really good PR people) person who has been propelled into a position of almost limitless power over a large group of devoted people.
Actually, and this seems quite strange, but its the only ready example I could think of at the moment, in the creation of this underground christian group, Jesus may have 'done a Hitler'. As in, he might have joined this revolutionary group with some oppsition, then, by sheer value of character/deeds/ideas etc. he may have risen throughthe ranks, eclipsing the other party members in terms of fame, while leaving some of the original leaders bitter, or, if not bitter, at least completely alienated, with his 'son of god' stylings.
Relatively plausible, if slighlty OTT melodramatic...X3
Admittedly, it is quite hard to judge the views of the general population during that time, because they were in an almost 'transition' period. The Roman Empire was crumbling, cynicism abounded etc., but they were still on the tail end of Classical thinking, where, if it happened, and you saw it happen, and if someone else saw it happen, it must have been a God who did it.
So to announce yourself as the son of God, not the king of Gods, not any ordinary God, but the son of a 'super' God, a God that could do anything, be anywhere, know evrything, but was still in keeping with traditional Roman values and, most importantly, incorporated all the holidays and festivals under one banner, was quite a daring move, but not totally unreasonable and out there as it would be today...
Or, back to SR's post, you could just follow Monty Python's line of thinking about Jesus, and go on to say that "He's not the messaih! He's a very naughty boy!" :D
...
Also, before anyone objects to the above comment, you do realise that all of the members of Monty Python (minus Terry Gilliam) were all Oxford and Cambridge graduates?
Just because they're satirists does not make them dumb.

MrsSallyBakura

07-28-2009, 02:41 AM

If I remember correctly, nothing was written about Jesus until several years after he died. Stories of his exploits could have easily been fabricated since no one who witnessed Jesus would have been alive.

The Bible may not have been officially "complete" until the 300's, but that doesn't mean that people didn't start writing it in that century.

I know that this is a Catholic website, but I think there's enough detail in most of the columns for there to be someone to call the guy out if he got something wrong in his history.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm

So if by several years you mean about 20 years or so, then yeah, you'd probably be right. But remember that there are only 4 books written about Jesus' life that are considered part of Biblical Canon, and they're all fairly consistent with each other, I think it's safe to assume that the four people who wrote these books were around when Jesus existed, or at least in a similar situation like it.

I think that SU makes an interesting point in that Jesus claimed to be the "Son of God," which is very different from what others who want to be like God would call themselves.

Turtlicious

07-28-2009, 02:47 AM

...Ahh... the classic case of the humanity is a mistake spiel... People like this obviously weren't hugged enough as a child or just want attention... hmmm...

:objection:

I hug myself plenty

grimfang999

07-28-2009, 07:22 AM

well, my way of seeing it is similar to shining, but has links to religion and God an such

like shining said, Jesus was that times hero, he did exist and fought for equality. however, what people fail to see was how cunning Jesus was. this is not cunning in an evil way however, he did not actually lie. he claimed to be the son of God, knowing that would give him a grand title and would make people listen to him. this was not a lie. i think he looked at the story of creation (which was in the jewish beliefs) and interpreted God creating Adam and Eve to be the result as everyone was Gods children, and knew few people would see that.

now i am going to explore his reasons to why he went to the degree he went to as in being a martyr for his cause:

if i am not mistaken, stonings were common in those days, sometimes on the grounds for blasphemy, regardless of whether it was intensional or not, killing in Gods name. i think Jesus, having a strong religious and ethic morals and views had watched these in horror and disgust. this was one mere example, perhaps he saw that people were corrupted and hated each other too much.

the only thing i cannot figure out is if he was able to cure many people, walk on water, etc, how was he able to do it? the easiest thing to say was either they were stretched or entirely metaphorical. i remember a bible story of where there was a paralysed man who jesus said to him something like "i forgive you for you sins, now get up" and the man did so. this could be explained in several ways and maybe more:
1. it was made up by somebody to make jesus sound more impressive
2. he indeed had power and was able to heal
3. jesus had perhaps found an extremely rare herb which had gone extinct soon after which could heal any disease, this i dont think is likely but it has some potential
3. it was entirely metaphorical and the man had commited a terrable sin and could not forgive himself for it, and having been forgiven by the messiah felt like he had been cured of paralysis and could move on.

this could be said the same about the last supper.
1. God has told him what will happen and jesus informed what each of his diciples must do
2. Jesus alone had psychic abilities and could foresee the future
3. it was stretched to build more impressions on jesus being the messiah
4. it was a conspiracy planned out by Jesus, Judas, and peter i think, among some others, perhaps a few captains of the military, and the person with the clay pot which indicated where the last supper was held (sorry if i got somethings wrong there, i havent read the bible and only take what i can find). and it was all planned out to leave one of the last marks to make people believe he was the messiah. i would argue this as a necessary evil in order to attempt to stop or reduce hatred and corruption.

in conclusion, as far as i see it shining is correct, however the perspective taken was very narrow and didnt take the other side to any degree. in my eyes, even if he wasnt literally the almighty messiah, if everyone has a duty on earth perhaps that was what God intended him to do. At the same time, my more non-religious approach would show he was crafty and intellegent and knew how to get people to follow him, and the son of God claim was an interpretation of a text few people would realise to be spread and connected to everyone who believed. All i can say in that he was a great philosopher who wanted peace in the world.

we cannot prove that had did have any spiritual connections with God or even if God exists, but then i would say because we cannot prove he exist means that he must exist because God is entirely spiritual, and if we proved his existance, would that make him a physical entity, thus not being a or the God but a supreme race?

Fat1Fared

07-28-2009, 01:15 PM

MrsSallyBakura

07-28-2009, 03:40 PM

Grim that is lot of opinion hiding as fact and lot of assumptions, now though your alond these by all accounts, just be careful about how you present it

Anyway in my opinion, there wasn't a jesus, there was a fried mouse story, where a man or maybe even several man did some small things and these actions then grew with telling (like chinese whispers) until the orginal actions where completely forget and new ones had replaced it

IE, I believe instead of walking on water, he probably swim across a large lake, which was impressive, but after several years of telling, poeple had blown it out of all propousion

I take it nobody looked at the link I posted.

Now, what I want to know is how on Earth "swimming across a lake" translates to "walked on water" in merely a few decades. (were there even any lakes in Israel?) I mean think about it: I can understand "swimming across a lake" turning into "swimming down a river," since you're right in that the truth gets stretched via oral tradition sometimes, but that just seems to be way too much of a stretch to me. It just doesn't seem realistic.

Also the story about walking across water wouldn't make much sense if it turned him into swimming across a lake.

I know you were only giving an example, but to me it just sounds like you're purposefully blocking out all possibility of there being a God or Jesus Christ. You're making a lot of assumptions as well. Face it: We won't ever really concretely know what happened, at least not in a way that will satisfy everyone, unless we were there ourselves. And that's not happening anytime soon.

The link I posted shows that people started writing the New Testament not more than 20-some years after Jesus died. And who's to say that the 4 people who wrote the Gospels didn't start journaling or anything before that official time period? It's not like people were only telling the stories out loud. Writing systems existed at this time.

Fat1Fared

07-28-2009, 03:54 PM

I take it nobody looked at the link I posted.

Now, what I want to know is how on Earth "swimming across a lake" translates to "walked on water" in merely a few decades. (were there even any lakes in Israel?) I mean think about it: I can understand "swimming across a lake" turning into "swimming down a river," since you're right in that the truth gets stretched via oral tradition sometimes, but that just seems to be way too much of a stretch to me. It just doesn't seem realistic.

Also the story about walking across water wouldn't make much sense if it turned him into swimming across a lake.

I know you were only giving an example, but to me it just sounds like you're purposefully blocking out all possibility of there being a God or Jesus Christ. You're making a lot of assumptions as well. Face it: We won't ever really concretely know what happened, at least not in a way that will satisfy everyone, unless we were there ourselves. And that's not happening anytime soon.

The link I posted shows that people started writing the New Testament not more than 20-some years after Jesus died. And who's to say that the 4 people who wrote the Gospels didn't start journaling or anything before that official time period? It's not like people were only telling the stories out loud. Writing systems existed at this time.

Sally, I didn't see your post and merely replying to grims, that was an example and their is 6 lakes there and lots of very long rivers (PS also remember this was 2000 thousands years ago, a lot has changed in landscapes of earth in that time)

Also I think you are REALLY, REALLY, underestimating how much a story can change every time it is told (aspically in these times,) look at Jack the Ripper, in a matter of weeks, he went from killing 1 woman in his first week, to killing 12 according stories and rumours, in truth he only killed 5 all together

Or at the fall of the Russian Goverment and Rise of lenin, according to the story, their was massive raid and victory on the royal palance, intruth it was few man waking into an dead building

Or beleif, that thousands of witchs were burnt at stake, when infact, burnings where VERY RARE

Or the Star Wars Programe in Cold War

Or the likes of Billy the Kid and Rasputin, look at how their legends have grown,

To me, it isn't hard to make a legend and if there was a jesus, A REAL ONE, then for man of such importance, their would be lot more evidence for him than their is (If look, I said their may have been interesting men around, but legends are usually far from the true person, aspeically if those men, tried to make themselves legends)

I know you were only giving an example, but to me it just sounds like you're purposefully blocking out all possibility of there being a God or Jesus Christ. You're making a lot of assumptions as well. Face it: We won't ever really concretely know what happened, at least not in a way that will satisfy everyone, unless we were there ourselves. And that's not happening anytime soon.

I said this was opinion, nothing more, so don't make it out that I was saying this is fact, I never deal in facts, and as for purposefully trying to not believe in god, well I think believing a man was son of something which I don't believe exists and that he did things such as walking on water, is more foolish than not believing it, to me, his stories don't sound like anything more than legends same as fire breathing Dragons, yet if I did believe in fire breathing dragons I suspect you would (whether admit or not) think that was stupid, yet no more evidence for your thing than is mine, so lets not go down the old path of well your just refusing to believe, No I just simply looked at it and didn't feel it made sense, so decided not to believe and there nothing wrong with looking at something and deciding it isn't what says it is, spaically if no way for it to prove otherwise and so only have own subjective view of what makes sense to go on.

Read this:-

[COLUMBUS, Ohio ? About nine in 10 Americans heard the rumor that Barack Obama is a Muslim, making it possibly the most prevalent rumor of the 2008 presidential campaign, according to a nationwide survey.

However, only 22 percent of those surveyed said they actually believed that Obama is a Muslim.

The results can be viewed as both good and bad, according to R. Kelly Garrett, one of the leaders of the survey and assistant professor of communication at Ohio State University.

"On the one hand, only a fraction of the people who heard the rumor that Obama is a Muslim actually believed it," Garrett said.

But on the other hand, almost a quarter of Americans did believe it was true, even though everyone from the news media to John McCain himself was consistently saying the rumor was false."

Now, here is how it happens:-

Man 1 sees it and tells Man 2, who didn't:-

"I couldn't believe he swim across that lake, it only took him 2 hours"

Man 2 goes to Man 3

"Man, I saw it with my own eyes, he swim across that lake and took him less than 2 hours to do it"

Man 3 to Man 4

"I'm telling you, in 20minutes, I saw him swim across that lake"

Man 4 to Man 5

Yup, its true, I was there, he got across in 20 minutes, it was like he was walking across the water or something

Man 5 to Man 6

I will never forget the day I saw a man walk across that lake

(and thus our legend is born, and 20 years is longer time (aspeically in time, when most only lived to 30-35 and word of mouth had even more effect than does today, and still strong today) than may think, for poeple to forget/rebuild something,)

Finally "Just because it is written, doesn't make it true" :-Did you know the man who pulished and made Darwins theory famous, didn't even believe in it himself. That theory is now seen as undieing fact, yet the man who made it fact, didn't believe it, what does that tell you? all need is good PR man

this isn't saying their wasn't a man (or maybe even a group of men) behind those legends, just that as it natural way with these things, the legend is lot bigger and grander than truth

Turtlicious

07-28-2009, 06:02 PM

1 in 4 americans are mentally deficient

grimfang999

07-28-2009, 07:56 PM

personally fat i actually see more mistaken information in the source than spead rumours being strecthed, and the example you gave is through human stupidity. people lie to much, thats he problem. stories are bound to be stetched, but only idiots actually claim that they were there when they were not. jack the ripper and your other examples you gave were stretched to extremes thanks to the media, who has it as their job to overstretch things with little information they actually have. if the writers were indeed jesus' disciples, it is a first hand source, and recorded recently after the event, then is it not fair to say it is more reliable than a rumour? as far as we know the book was finally released presumably a few decades after jesus' death, yet how do we know it wasnt already written and they were having other issues?

also i didnt say any of my things in my view were fact, i actually said that they were possable explanations.

when i think of walking on water, i think of the dead sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea

israel is just to the west of it, isnt it it is fairly possable that that story was true to the degree of him standing on top of the lake in a very deep part, and as the story was spread the part about it being in the dead sea became an irrelevent detail to include, and so was forgotten about? just another possablity, not announcing it as fact

Turtlicious

07-29-2009, 02:29 AM

hmm people probably hallucinated things back thing they drank their own urine you know

grimfang999

07-29-2009, 07:02 AM

thats possable as well, except for the fact that urine is mostly water and so wouldnt cause you to hallucinate

Turtlicious

07-29-2009, 07:08 AM

they alsp ate moldy bread

grimfang999

07-29-2009, 07:10 AM

thats more of a reason i guess

Fat1Fared

07-29-2009, 08:34 AM

personally fat i actually see more mistaken information in the source than spead rumours being strecthed, and the example you gave is through human stupidity.

You see here is problem, you think that it is stupidity, it isn't, it is human nature, we naturally over stretch the truth when trying to prove a point,

people lie to much, thats he problem. stories are bound to be stetched, but only idiots actually claim that they were there when they were not.

No, they just believe it themselves and know only way to make others believe them, is to say they were wittness and even if it is stupid, doesn't stop poeple doing it

jack the ripper and your other examples you gave were stretched to extremes thanks to the media, who has it as their job to overstretch things with little information they actually have.

No, actually the police where just as bad as media in jack ripper case and though media light the match, the poeple fed the flames.

The fact is these are modern day examples I used, as with them it is easier to show what the more true story is (in the time we are on about, have no idea, but can make guesses best on human behaviour, as on whole our actions don't change as much as may think)

But if want an older example, without Media, what about King Arthor?
=What about Greek Legends and Gods

if the writers were indeed jesus' disciples, it is a first hand source, and recorded recently after the event, then is it not fair to say it is more reliable than a rumour? as far as we know the book was finally released presumably a few decades after jesus' death, yet how do we know it wasnt already written and they were having other issues?

1=Poeple lie and poeple love to be linked to something big
2=Like said, if these poeple are trying to make legend or prove point, just because they say they where doesn't mean were and even if were, just because they wrote down something, doesn't mean they were wrting what really happened (also how do we know how much of the bible's of today, differ from ogrinal, we already know that there are several stories missing and that over years and different translations things have changed or been translated wrong,)

also i didnt say any of my things in my view were fact, i actually said that they were possable explanations.

I know mate, don;t worry, just your writing style came off as if writing fact, and that can make poeple defensive on your points

when i think of walking on water, i think of the dead sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea

israel is just to the west of it, isnt it it is fairly possable that that story was true to the degree of him standing on top of the lake in a very deep part, and as the story was spread the part about it being in the dead sea became an irrelevent detail to include, and so was forgotten about? just another possablity, not announcing it as fact

If I read your point right, doesn't this prove my point more? (basically did something good, but by end legend over took fact,)

The Fact is, I don't believe the stories about jesus and know enough about humans, to know it isn't hard to trick a group of poeple into doing/believing something (look at poeple like Darren Brown) and that we make/have legends and stories, which little fact and lot of fiction to them:- (I mean do you believe that Englands Saint (a turkish man) really killed a dragon?)
=I mean if going to believe there was a Real Jesus, then why not believe in Fire breathing Dragons, Drakes and Griffins?

=Also, I like turtles Idea, they were hallucinating lol

killshot

07-29-2009, 02:06 PM

hmm people probably hallucinated things back thing they drank their own urine you know

If urine made you hallucinate, I could have saved a lot of money on acid. (joking)

Turtlicious

07-29-2009, 06:56 PM

i said moldy berad later I know fo ra FACT that makes you hallucinate

maisetofan

07-30-2009, 01:15 AM

Turtlicious

07-30-2009, 01:26 AM

1 in 4 people believe obama is muslim

EVEN THOUGH NOONE NOONE HAS SAID THAT HEIS AND EVEN JOHN MCCAIN HAS DENIED THESE RUMOURS

Fat1Fared

07-30-2009, 05:22 AM

hahaha lol turtle your picture of yourself is showing :eek:

Obama and the whole muslim thing, it screams media BS to me
yes his father and brother are according to an interview i saw with him on youtube but that does not make him one, nothing is set in stone with him

Mai, it is bull, (and not even media bull, most of media where reporting it was false) that is point, but it was bull people believed (25% of USA believed when even the media where reporting it as false, shows something and it isn't that Americans are dumb, just that it isn't hard to change truth)

HolyShadow

07-30-2009, 12:54 PM

...This conversation seems highly off-topic.

Aninamar

08-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Because we just keep talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence, moving from topic to topic, so that no one has the chance to interrupt us.

It's really quite hypnotic.

grimfang999

08-03-2009, 01:46 PM

it is true what he says. philosophy brings us to expand beyond the question and discuss other points in relation, perhaps so far as to it becoming not philosophy at all; but politics and real issues.

Xanadu

08-03-2009, 05:04 PM

Life has no meaning! 'Meaning' is only a human thought/creation; perhaps we don't actually serve any purpose in being here, but once we are, we live to attain the goal of survival. :O

like everything else
I don't believe in some all knowing god watching over me
nor do i believe we "go somewhere" when we die
we die and are dead, like everything else (most of which we eat)

like life is sacred, life is only sacred when we want it to be, we kill animals, plants, and other people
(some say human life is only sacred, which is also flawed because right now all over the world humans are killing eachother over money, black goop from the ground, invisible creators and invisible lines)
humans are strange creatures, and not that special

AsteriskRocks

08-03-2009, 05:54 PM

God isn't The Universe. The Universe is 21.

21 x 2 is the meaning to life...42

grimfang999

08-03-2009, 06:01 PM

and if E=MC^2 is 42, the universe is the wieght of an atom :V

AsteriskRocks

08-03-2009, 06:06 PM

and if E=MC^2 is 42, the universe is the wieght of an atom :V

Energy = Mass times speed of light in the vacuum...can't be 42 because not everything has the same exact mass.

grimfang999

08-03-2009, 06:10 PM

yes but 42/299,792,458 square rooted is 0.000000006 or something like that, probebly more than what an atom wieghs certainly be i cannot say what the measurement is in

Turtlicious

08-04-2009, 03:19 PM

Fat1Fared

08-04-2009, 06:00 PM

like everything else
I don't believe in some all knowing god watching over me
nor do i believe we "go somewhere" when we die
we die and are dead, like everything else (most of which we eat)

like life is sacred, life is only sacred when we want it to be, we kill animals, plants, and other people
(some say human life is only sacred, which is also flawed because right now all over the world humans are killing eachother over money, black goop from the ground, invisible creators and invisible lines)
humans are strange creatures, and not that special

Well lions kill others lions which pee too close to them, yet we don't criticise the lions for it,

I'm not saying humans are special or have deeper meaning to them, but we ain't that strange, in my opinion, then humans greatest failing, isn't that they go against nature (in that they are strange thing to natural world,) I think its that dispite having the ability to go against nature, we still follow it (we fight over land and resources, as does every other animal, from a mouse to a rhino, fighting in nature, is way to prove worth keeping alive, which means that maybe it isn't humans that are wrong after all, their just product of world which made them, which means if take subjective view humans are bad and strange, then infact it world and nature you think is bad and strange)

HolyShadow

08-04-2009, 07:03 PM

I'm reading a book, Mountains Upon Mountains.

Jesus, it's really restored my faith. This one line that read something like, "If you want proof that there's a God, look to where the impoverished and oppressed are fighting back for their life."

It made me think that places like that get that bad because humans make it that way. It's humans that blame God for it getting that bad. It's not God that makes it that bad. It's an arrogant thought to blame God on problems that other humans caused. I understand that it's hard to believe that other humans see in the first person and have a life just like you, and have the ability to make choices that influence others just like you, but that's just the way it is. Every problem caused now is a result of choice somewhere earlier down the line.

Now, in a conversation I had with Zairak several months ago, this means that there's no free will; cause and effect dictates our lives. It's true. You can't stop the flow of cause and effect, but you can divert it for people to have a better future. Why blame God for horrible things? It's lazy and pointless. If you want to make a damn difference, then make a damn difference. Go to places where the children are naught but skin and bones and provide food, shelter, and medical care. At the very least, raise awareness of it.

Another line in it went something like, "Scholars are more likely to shun the idea of a God, but God is there in the hearts of people who lead lives in horrid conditions. They need that God in order to survive day by day."

I don't care if you believe in a physical being with omnipotent power or a simple thought that's truly intended to give hope to people; there is a God. Our believing makes God real. Why else would (Some type of) God be on our minds for thousands and thousands of years? We give life to God, and we should be thankful that He's there in our hour of need.

grimfang999

08-04-2009, 07:14 PM

finally someone who has come round to see the truth. we cannot blame God because it is our own choices that caused them to suffer, regardless of if we want them to or not. God clearly cannot work inside the physical world on his own, unless he can but he releases his energy slowly to guide the fabrics of time and space. this is why only we are to blame for our own problems. of course they may come a time where the barrier limiting Gods power is shattered, and that may be called the time of judgement.

if you look away from God, you are blinding yourself even more than a religious fanatic. accept there is a God or Gods, but not to the degree of obsession, and see the world in perfect balance

you know i always notice its these extremely obvious things that people fail to grasp

Ishikawa Oshro

08-04-2009, 07:49 PM

ugh yous start this long freakin debate in my absence
I wish all A very painfull death by a splintered bat

grimfang999

08-04-2009, 07:51 PM

you can still say your view :V

killshot

08-04-2009, 08:55 PM

if you look away from God, you are blinding yourself even more than a religious fanatic. accept there is a God or Gods, but not to the degree of obsession, and see the world in perfect balance

Where the hell did this come from? You guys were just talking about how people, not god/gods are the cause of things, but then you go and pull this shit out of your ass. You said yourself that people are what determine what goes on in the world so why would you immediately contradict yourself and attribute things to God?

you know i always notice its these extremely obvious things that people fail to grasp

What the...how do I...this is...wow...

It's like this sentence was purposefully engineered to piss me off.

HolyShadow

08-04-2009, 08:58 PM

You guys? I don't care for them.

It seems that in order to weaken my point, you're trying to act like we're one entity. Incorrect. Try again.

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 04:54 AM

I'm reading a book, Mountains Upon Mountains.

Jesus, it's really restored my faith. This one line that read something like, "If you want proof that there's a God, look to where the impoverished and oppressed are fighting back for their life."

I think that is most insulting thing I have ever read, so if a, he God makes everything and so all "injustices" and unfairness's were made by him (more on this later) but we cannot blame him for this, however he can still take credit for the one thing poeple have, these poeple go through shit everyday, die everyday, lose everything everday, but still fight on and then some poeple (not god, here, but poeple) who live in nice places away from this go, "Isn't god great for helping them live through shit he gives them"

Screw him, when I was watching things no child should have to see (which I'm not going into on internet, so believe it or don't,) God didn't give me the strength to get through that, I did mself, I was one who did it and I was one who came out the other side (the poeple who helped me, were myself and several other humans)

And I know that I have far from worse life ever, just by chance of birth place, so I know that the poeple who have gone through lot worse than me, deverse far more respect than that.

To me, the ONE great thing, the ONE redeeding quality almost all humans have, is our ability to fight to surivive, it is something we hardly give up, and so ether God has to accept that if he is one who gave us that, then he gave us ALL our qualities, "good and bad" or he has to accept that humans made this themselves and he does bugger all, WE fight to survive, that is our gift and I'm not letting god take that from us.

It made me think that places like that get that bad because humans make it that way. It's humans that blame God for it getting that bad. It's not God that makes it that bad. It's an arrogant thought to blame God on problems that other humans caused. I understand that it's hard to believe that other humans see in the first person and have a life just like you, and have the ability to make choices that influence others just like you, but that's just the way it is. Every problem caused now is a result of choice somewhere earlier down the line.

So to you, No one is to blame? Whether it is you or someone else, cannot blame reaction.

Anyway, onto god, well if God is real, then God is to blame or God didn't what he said he did, now I think God must be a pretty childish person if he is way humans see him, because he is quiet willing to take credit for good things, (must be gods work,) however the second something bad happens, God quickly says "I was against from start" hmmm, sorry god, ether you take credit for both or you take no credit at all!!!
=Now like you say, god created us, then it is god's falt, because he made us how we are, he made the world how it is, this was his choice to play with life and so our actions are nothing more than an exstration of his actions, our choices are his choices, we are him, so at end of the line, the book stoppes with god, because we are gods mistakes and so if god wants to take credit for our creation and say he is a fully holy creatre, then he must take responability for it (which he isn't) his only other choice is to say he didn't do all he did and so therefore, he isn't god, but lest puts blame back with us.
(I don't believe in god, so I cannot blame, but I would sure as hell blame him if did ^_-, He choose to make us, he choose to make murderers, he choose to make rapists, they were his choices and until god takes responability for himself, how can we (nothing more than extriation of him) take responability for anthing, thats bad parenting)

this to me, is what proves cannot be a god to be honest, if we look past fact that just looks like an old legend poeple cling onto, as have nothing left to cling onto, and it is nothing more than trying to give meaning to the meaningless (in a way, that dog runs after its own tail) god simply cannot exist, as to be a god is to be the ultimate perfect being, and nothing can be perfect, as perfect is in eye of the beholder, so what I see as god, you see as devil, what I see as devil, you see as god) therefore god cannot ever exist, because the idea of a god is impossible, now we could have a creator, but that isn't a god, I mean humans have creatre life, are we now gods? (not to me) I doubt we have creator, but it isn't impossible, a god on other hand is. You see, for god to perfect he would in my eyes have to admit to his mistakes, which he doesn't, therefore I just killed god (hmmm)

Saying:- "Give me perfection, and I will give you god"

Now, in a conversation I had with Zairak several months ago, this means that there's no free will; cause and effect dictates our lives. It's true. You can't stop the flow of cause and effect, but you can divert it for people to have a better future. Why blame God for horrible things? It's lazy and pointless. If you want to make a damn difference, then make a damn difference. Go to places where the children are naught but skin and bones and provide food, shelter, and medical care. At the very least, raise awareness of it.

Not that lazy, infact takes lot of effort ^_^
-but on serious side, poeple like to blame others for their mistakes (god seems to be included in this group, which would explain a lot) so if going to blame someone else, blame the big guy on top and fact is holy, I know you have not had great life, but it could have been a lot worse and if were born in county where your parsents were murderer, your two older sidlings died from aids and you at age of 12 are looking after 10 other sidlings, wouldn't you ask why god had forsaken you to such a life? (God is meant to be justice, yet in his idea of justice, the injust win)

Another line in it went something like, "Scholars are more likely to shun the idea of a God, but God is there in the hearts of people who lead lives in horrid conditions. They need that God in order to survive day by day."

I don't care if you believe in a physical being with omnipotent power or a simple thought that's truly intended to give hope to people; there is a God. Our believing makes God real. Why else would (Some type of) God be on our minds for thousands and thousands of years? We give life to God, and we should be thankful that He's there in our hour of need.

With first bit, it has some truth, god gives meaning to meaningless for poeple

As for second, in my opinion, it is half right, yes when you believe in something, but it has no phyiscal force, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as I thought is a real thing, however that doesn't mean that it is, anymore that a thought, (so the thought of a god is real, making a form of god real, but it isn't god you believe in)
=but with second part holy, well the belief and love of fire breathing dragons, Sun-Men and Ghosts have been in thoughts of humans for Millions of years too, doesn't make them real, God is story which to cling onto, nothing more, to me

Fenrir502

08-05-2009, 06:07 AM

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 06:28 AM

I believe Holy was saying that God made everything, and that injustice and unfairness were peoples work.

yes, but if god made everything, that means he made the injustice and infairness (he needs to take responablilty for himself, for once)

And in that bit he was saying, that god is what gives poeple strenght they need to live, way for god to take credit for good and pass the book with bad

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 06:59 AM

Where the hell did this come from? You guys were just talking about how people, not god/gods are the cause of things, but then you go and pull this shit out of your ass. You said yourself that people are what determine what goes on in the world so why would you immediately contradict yourself and attribute things to God?

i was just saying a point that bias to one side blinds you as much as the other, i had moved on to a different point saying to consider the possablities of both sides rather than just one. i was just pointing that out because shining if i remember correctly has never believed in God (unless im wrong) as far as i have known him. because of this breakthrough he can now begin to analyse the Gods debate with more of a balanced perspective.

i was also bringing up if God does exist as an allpowerful being (maybe not omnipotent just extremely powerful) then why does he not use his power in the world. perhaps i didnt explain it very well and i obvious got carried away from what we were discussing. later on i may copy and paste a discussion i had with niknnik the other day, i was making quite good and interesting points there
What the...how do I...this is...wow...

It's like this sentence was purposefully engineered to piss me off.

sorry there friend its just i always see things when looking at a topic which links the opposite sides in such a clear way that it is surprising nobody (that i know of who looks at philosophy) has even noticed or acknowledged that they know it. its not meant to be an insult, just a statement. in philosophy people do tend to try and find out the most complicated areas with often huge bias and seem to always fail to grasp the easy solution of co-existance which stands out when i look at it.

Ishikawa Oshro

08-05-2009, 11:17 AM

yes, but if god made everything, that means he made the injustice and infairness (he needs to take responablilty for himself, for once)

And in that bit he was saying, that god is what gives poeple strenght they need to live, way for god to take credit for good and pass the book with bad

So if you give birth to a kid. And you intend and raise him to be a well matured young man. But he becomes the total opposite. Is that your fault or his choice.

From shinings point of view GOD has given man a choice. He has created. He dosent raise us.

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 11:26 AM

agreed with ishi. God may have created those feelings, but then the emotion we thhink of as evil have their purposes. pain tells us something is bad for us (even if it was accidental pain, like you trip over), sorrow allows compassion which in turn allows stronger unity between others. its all a balance. it is a mans choice if we want to hurt someone else, or become superior to another.

like i said, God cannot, for one reason or another, entirely commit his power into this universe and change things immediately, and so he cannot correct the wrongs which exist through our choices. its up to us to work for him to remove the poverty and injustice in the world.

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 01:38 PM

I love Don Rosa's take on the whole evil oppressors.
They say that wealthy people like the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are sinful because they accumulated fortunes by exploiting the poor. I feel that everybody should be able to rise as high as they can or want to, provided they don't kill anybody or actually oppress other people on the way up. A little exploitation is something you come by in nature. We see it in the pecking order of animals?everybody has to be exploited or to exploit someone else to a certain extent. I don't resent those things.
The question might be: which is the "certain extent" that draws the line.
(Due to the fact I hit the "Quick Reply" button accidentally, I need to make it stay there until I think how to change my thoughts into words.)
EDIT:
OK.
From what I've theorized from the Bible and that one episode of Star Trek, evil lurks within the hearts of men and it comes in many aspects. Everyone is at least a little bit evil. However, it's still the part of our humanity and it can't be rid of. Since I have problems with limescale, rust, ground in dirt and summarizing my thoughts, I will just say:
Being an atheist doesn't forbid you from being the shepherd. And a Christian also can do nasty things. If there's God, I believe he knew full well about our evil qualities when he created them. Because some of them are key to self perfection. How good is a leader when he is too weak to give orders? And sometimes ruthlessness and other aspects of evilness are even advocated. Although if I'd be Lot's daughter, I'd cut the bastard's dick off.
If there is no God, then if we see selfishness as evil, then we can just trace it to the humble beginnings where personal survival was very important. In those cases, the "evil" selfishness allowed the strongest to survive.
Besides, evil is a VERY subjective matter. Imagine you have a horde of slaves and a family. Your slaves despite you for making your life miserable, thinking you're an evil jerk. For your children, you are doing good, because the money out of the labor funds their well-being and education, so their life standard is better and they don't have to sunk into slavery. And face it, none of us want to be enslaved. Some of us that are lucky enough to live the lives where we have internet and there isn't AIDS rampaging around should cherish it rather than waste it on senseless altruism.
Besides, here's a little analogy: "If a lion catches an antelope, he has the right to eat her. If the antelope is fast and smart enough to outrun the lion, she's the right to live."

like i said, God cannot, for one reason or another, entirely commit his power into this universe and change things immediately, and so he cannot correct the wrongs which exist through our choices. its up to us to work for him to remove the poverty and injustice in the world.

Because he's Haruhi and he didn't realize his powers yet. And Kyon doesn't seem to give a crap about oppressed blacks. (Just like 95% of us. I mean, c'mon. How many of you feel depressed every day about the situation of poverty people?... Or maybe that's just me.)

killshot

08-05-2009, 02:05 PM

You guys? I don't care for them.

It seems that in order to weaken my point, you're trying to act like we're one entity. Incorrect. Try again.

I was responding to grimfang and since he was essentially agreeing with you, I thought I would credit you both with the argument. I wasn't even attacking your point, I was referring to grimfang agreeing with you and then jumping to an off the wall conclusion. And since when does "you guys" (plural) imply that you are a singular entity?

What I don't like about the "God made everything beautiful and humans screwed it up" argument is that it spits in the face of human accomplishment. Humans may be imperfect, but that doesn't mean we are incapable of doing anything without a god. I don't care if you believe a god made the world, but gods don't really have a place in it now. We have arrived at this point in our society because of the efforts of man and the accumulation of knowledge. If you realize that humans are the problem, then shouldn't you also realize that we are also the solution?

Grimfang:
...the easy solution of co-existance...

"There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken

Just because your solution makes everyone happy, that doesn't make it correct. I for one am more concerned with what is true, not with what people want to be true.

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 02:06 PM

So if you give birth to a kid. And you intend and raise him to be a well matured young man. But he becomes the total opposite. Is that your fault or his choice.

From shinings point of view GOD has given man a choice. He has created. He dosent raise us.

Yes, if my children became a murderer, I would have to take some responiabitliy for it,

but that is moot point anyway, as if god is god then there is difference between ME and GOD:-

1=God CREATRES us, that is different to giving birth to us
2=God is meant to creatre us the way we are, therefore our personality are intentual, my babies would just be a reaction to world around him (well unless god made him as he is)
3=God Made the world as well as us, I just made the baby
4=If god gives us our good side, he gave us our bad one as well

Seems to me like everyone makes all these excuses for gods mistakes, and yet if god is god, he wouldn't need these at all.

Killshot that is my thought as well (why can he make all good things and us make all the bad things, when I look at a peice of beautiful art, I don't see gods work, I see man's greatest)

like i said, God cannot, for one reason or another, entirely commit his power into this universe and change things immediately, and so he cannot correct the wrongs which exist through our choices. its up to us to work for him to remove the poverty and injustice in the world.

still sounds like he is exonerating himself of all responability again

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 02:22 PM

still sounds like he is exonerating himself of all responability again

I like this theory: When God created the world (assuming he did), he already set everything in stone. All the laws of physics, the Big Bang (although I'm not a big fan of the theory, I stick to what's deemed the most plausible) and then he figured that breaking the rules for a good reason can also lead to breaking the rules for bad reasons. Hence why he operated only on whatever rules he already created.

That's why Samuel Vimes is God.
It would explain a lot. If you catch a deadly illness, it's the illness that might kill you. Not God. If it's cured, it's the deed of people operating within the God's established rules.
And we already know what happens to Gods that break the rules. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Yagami)

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 02:31 PM

I was responding to grimfang and since he was essentially agreeing with you, I thought I would credit you both with the argument. I wasn't even attacking your point, I was referring to grimfang agreeing with you and then jumping to an off the wall conclusion. And since when does "you guys" (plural) imply that you are a singular entity?

yeah sorry i do go off topic sometimes

Grimfang:

"There is always an easy solution to every problem - neat, plausible, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken

Just because your solution makes everyone happy, that doesn't make it correct. I for one am more concerned with what is true, not with what people want to be true.

in philosophy, is there a true right and wrong? the whole point of philosophy is to discuss the unknown and difficult-to-solve problems which cannot be explained through science or anything else to the degree of garantee. for example, "red shift" we know is there for a fact, and from that we have come to the theory of "the big bang". on the surface the big bang theory it does make sense, but because we were not there to see it actually happen, we cannot know. that is why even now we discuss how the universe came to be and what part did God play in it.

lets say if i come up with a new theory which is, as you said, "neat and plausable", people who disagree, even if it does take their side into account, will pick holes in it which will have to be explained further, until it reaches the point where the questions become inpossable to answer such as "why did God do this?". you could probebly give an answer but you cannot make it certain because seeing God is an omnipotent and unique being from humanity he may have different emotions or intentions to what we know of or even think of. answers like this we can only give with our limited knowledge as humans, thus no philosophy can be true until it is shown otherwise.

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 02:54 PM

you could probebly give an answer but you cannot make it certain because seeing God is an omnipotent and unique being from humanity he may have different emotions or intentions to what we know of or even think of.

God being a perfect being can't have emotions. Especially negative ones. He's omnipotent, maybe, but unique?
:objection:
This statement clearly reveals a contradiction. We were made to be like the God, if the whole Bible is to be believed. Since Bible is the only evidence that applies to this case, I call bullshit on the witness statement!
answers like this we can only give with our limited knowledge as humans, thus no philosophy can be true until it is shown otherwise.
http://blog.enterpriseitplanet.com/green/blog/blogpost_img/picard_facepalm.jpg
Which has been already said over nine thousand times now and is such a threadkiller, because it defies any point of further discussion.

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 03:14 PM

God being a perfect being can't have emotions. Especially negative ones. He's omnipotent, maybe, but unique?
:objection:
This statement clearly reveals a contradiction. We were made to be like the God, if the whole Bible is to be believed. Since Bible is the only evidence that applies to this case, I call bullshit on the witness statement!

erm... the bible never said God lacked a sense of emotion. matter of fact it sometimes seems he has a sense of humour. the truth is, a perfect being would have every emotion, because beings must have emotion to be alive, otherwise he would be monotonous and the universe would be monocrome.

of course, you say we were meant to be like God, and it did say "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". i agree with you there, God is a spirit, he has no physical form. however "make man in our image" does not always mean that we look like him, but thats how we pictured us in his mind. "after our likeness" may be free will and intellegence, because God clearly has that if he is truely almighy and powerful.

http://blog.enterpriseitplanet.com/green/blog/blogpost_img/picard_facepalm.jpg
Which has been already said over nine thousand times now and is such a threadkiller, because it defies any point of further discussion.[/QUOTE]

actually i meant it in the way that while nothing can be proved, we might as well try to figure out the answer, its a step forward to understanding instead of suddenly getting the answer so immediately nobody can believe it. and it answers the problems science cannot to the best of our abilities, until we can advance on these ideas no further

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 03:37 PM

erm... the bible never said God lacked a sense of emotion. matter of fact it sometimes seems he has a sense of humour.
1: Which is why the existence of God can be objected if he really does feel emotions.
2: "Seems."
the truth is, a perfect being would have every emotion, because beings must have emotion to be alive, otherwise he would be monotonous and the universe would be monocrome.
If he was jealous, mad, or other such stuff, he would be just a simple being that is only above all of us and not an omnipotent being. It's like you made a city out of LEGOs and then proceeded to tell them: "HAHA! I'm MORE powerful THAN YOU! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!" and started crushing them to plastic.

See, emotion is, all in all, a weakness. There's a reason why a chainsaw is perfect for cutting down trees - because it won't feel pity for them. Who's better leader? Erratic person who gives in to emotions easily or a level headed man who abides by the rules? I remember my first crush, and let me tell you this - having a ton of trash in your mind about all those feelings for other person and what not is in no way a step for perfection. (Because of this, I spent time sitting on a bed doing nothing in depression rather than perfect my skill in StarCraft! AND NOW I SUCK!!!!! And you have no way of understanding, you're too shallow to understand what it means for your 48 Hydralisks to die in a storm because your skills aren't worth ANYTHING! KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!)

The world from the beginning is monochrome and monotonous. It's we, the peeeeeeple, that make it more colorful. But only in our perceptions.
The rules of the universe have to be strict. They have to be LAWS. If God was a chaotic being with emotions, "logic" wouldn't exist.

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 03:45 PM

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 03:50 PM

Aim, that is one of things I said, though I don't think god being emotionless good ether, the idea of a god is impossible because he cannot be what he is meant to be, which means all he can be, is someone older and stronger than us, but that doesn't make him god or right
doesn't make him god or right
right
Having emotions when you're God is just a shitty trait.
You might destroy the world,
Or make people shit with bricks
And sometimes if you're bored
You can shepherd total dicks!
A PIRATE I WAS MEANT TO BE! TRIM THE SAILS AND ROAM THE SEA!

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 04:03 PM

1: Which is why the existence of God can be objected if he really does feel emotions.
2: "Seems."

1. not entirely, ill explain further down
2. i said seems only through some experiences, even though they may not be Gid

If he was jealous, mad, or other such stuff, he would be just a simple being that is only above all of us and not an omnipotent being. It's like you made a city out of LEGOs and then proceeded to tell them: "HAHA! I'm MORE powerful THAN YOU! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!" and started crushing them to plastic.

what you fail to grasp is the strength of emotions. look at a mother and father, if their child was in danger, or even not in danger for that matter, their instinct would be to protect them no matter the cost. likewise, we are Gods children, and he protects us like a father should. LEGO, on the other hand while you built it it is not alive, and so there is no point for compassion. living beings and toys are completely different. you wouldnt stomp on a baby as you would lego would you? of course you wouldnt unless you had no soul.

See, emotion is, all in all, a weakness. There's a reason why a chainsaw is perfect for cutting down trees - because it won't feel pity for them. Who's better leader? Erratic person who gives in to emotions easily or a level headed man who abides by the rules? I remember my first crush, and let me tell you this - having a ton of trash in your mind about all those feelings for other person and what not is in no way a step for perfection. (Because of this, I spent time sitting on a bed doing nothing in depression rather than perfect my skill in StarCraft! AND NOW I SUCK!!!!!)

i understand, but theres a solution to that: FILL YOUR MIND WITH OTHER INTERESTS, YOU CAN STILL THINK ABOUT YOUR CRUSH, A GREAT DEAL, BUT IT WONT HURT AS MUCH OR AT ALL IF YOU KEEP YOUR MIND OCCUPIED.

with the leader business, they need a mix of each. Look at Obama, he shows a great deal of emotion and compassion and understanding, while being intellegent and knowing whats best. Look at what Obama has done in his few few months in the office, hes getting sociallist health care introduced, hes opened up peace negociations for isreal, amoung other things. once more there needs to be a balance of things rather than one extreme or the other.

The world from the beginning is monochrome and monotonous. It's we, the peeeeeeple, that make it more colorful. But only in our perceptions.
The rules of the universe have to be strict. They have to be LAWS. If God was a chaotic being with emotions, "logic" wouldn't exist.

look at me. i am a 15 year old boy with an excellent intellect for his age, and yet im also extremely emotional. my logic is balanced with emotion, and i can see clearly both sides. everything must be in a balance for there to be reasoning. i agree, there had to be strict laws for there to be life. if gravity did not exist then we would float out into space and suffocate. if the speed of light was faster it would incinerate us with a radiation overdose. if everything was endothermic we would all be dead.

theres logic, now here comes emotion. you have never looked at the world for its true beauty have you? humans towns and citys have made the world monocrome, for grey is a corperate colour. have you ever been to the countryside? seen life inhabiting there? watched the sunset from your window and admired the beauty of it? if you havent, you are a sad, sad man. there are many colours in the world, that means it is not monocrome. and the beauty of the world may be repeatitive, but its the kind of repeatition which you would want to see again and again. only a God with emotion would make a world of such beauty, otherwise the whole world would be uniform, which it is not

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 04:29 PM

with the leader business, they need a mix of each. Look at Obama, he shows a great deal of emotion and compassion and understanding, while being intellegent and knowing whats best. Look at what Obama has done in his few few months in the office, hes getting sociallist health care introduced, hes opened up peace negociations for isreal, amoung other things. once more there needs to be a balance of things rather than one extreme or the other.
Comparing Obama to God. Priceless.
And what do I see? I see him introducing the shittiest form of socialism into America. I don't want to turn this into a political thread.

look at me. i am a 15 year old boy with an excellent intellect for his age

Funny, I'm the same age, my ego is inflated to the boot that I believe I can impersonate Gregory House (AND THAT'S A HIGH EGO LEVEL), and yet I never thought of myself like that. I've always thought that it's the other people that are idiots.

theres logic, now here comes emotion. you have never looked at the world for its true beauty have you? humans towns and citys have made the world monocrome, for grey is a corperate colour. have you ever been to the countryside? seen life inhabiting there?

Who the hell do you think I am? I'm a Pole. Which means I grew up with white bears (I have a pet polar bear called "Volodia". And he's really cute!) and I have a picture of Stalin on my wall. Also, I drink lots of vodka. And we recently came up with the idea of masturbate-a-thons with friends in the middle of a cornfield, because our shaman recently confirmed that it helps the plants to grow.

All of the countryside beauty and whatnot is BULL, irrelevant to the discussion! It's beautiful, right. But because we PERCEIVE it as so. God has little to do with it. He made things as they look like, and most of the time they look like this because they work while doing it. Take butterflies, for example. Their stunning beauty isn't because God likes to fap over shiny colours. It's a thing that helps them survive in this world.

I propose you look out of the window in a good, dramatic moment (Lord Havelock Vetinari once didn't follow this rule and he got a huge disappointment out of it. It made a man like Vetinari slip up. IT'S DANGEROUS.). And see life out in the street. Where people meet. Where they converse and something inside them is fulfilled in every conversation. Where they socialize. Sure, a shop building could possibly be sprinkled with some beautiful shit all over it, but why should the owner bother if it doesn't serve anything and he wastes money this way?

And why are you taking art out of the equation? If you have no appreciation for true works of civilization like literature, art and music, then sorry, you're more deep in the emotional shit that's escapist fantasy than me.

You know why I don't admire the beauty of the sun outside anymore? Because I don't have anyone to consume this feeling with and it just feels shallow. Unfulfilling. The only feeling I get from having a walk in the farmlands and forests in a little city where my grandmother lives is misery and melancholy, because I have some grasp on reality rather than give in to some "romantic" bullshit. And I also don't opinionate on people because of their view on the world. It might shock you, but I'm not a basement dweller with no friends who lives in a Fallout Vault and has never seen the world outside.
i understand, but theres a solution to that: FILL YOUR MIND WITH OTHER INTERESTS, YOU CAN STILL THINK ABOUT YOUR CRUSH, A GREAT DEAL, BUT IT WONT HURT AS MUCH OR AT ALL IF YOU KEEP YOUR MIND OCCUPIED.

Ever tried it yourself? You don't even read my posts. If I was strong enough, I'd be a successful StarCraft player, socialize with that girl or bury myself in books. But no. One little emotion, and I wallowed myself in a misanthropic self-pity.

what you fail to grasp is the strength of emotions. look at a mother and father, if their child was in danger, their instinct would be to protect them no matter the cost.

INSTINCT. Every mother and father does that, even in animal world, with some notable exceptions that I'm not bothered to show. It's your BABY, for Kerrigan's sake.

The thing with LEGOs is that for the whole universe we're just like those LEGOs. You'd think someone in the galaxy million light years away would even bother if we'd be blown up by something? No. The same way you squish a bug accidentally and you don't give a crap about it. The same way you get all sad about the situation of people in poverty in Africa and you forget about it the next day.

LEGO, on the other hand while you built it it is not alive, and so there is no point for compassion. living beings and toys are completely different. you wouldnt stomp on a baby as you would lego would you? of course you wouldnt unless you had no soul.

No point for compassion? I'm sorry, but you just contradicted yourself. You don't show compassion to your creations, they're probably not worth familiarizing yourself with them. Or they are simply tools, not art. And creating LEGOs can be a form of art if done properly.

And if you stomp on a baby... and what if you step on an ant? Or kill a fly? Do you have no soul if you do so?

Evil is objective. If you believe otherwise, I have a bridge to sell you to Terabithia.

Ishikawa Oshro

08-05-2009, 04:36 PM

Yes, if my children became a murderer, I would have to take some responiabitliy for it,

but that is moot point anyway, as if god is god then there is difference between ME and GOD:-

1=God CREATRES us, that is different to giving birth to us
2=God is meant to creatre us the way we are, therefore our personality are intentual, my babies would just be a reaction to world around him (well unless god made him as he is)
3=God Made the world as well as us, I just made the baby
4=If god gives us our good side, he gave us our bad one as well

Seems to me like everyone makes all these excuses for gods mistakes, and yet if god is god, he wouldn't need these at all.

Its not as moot point. From the religious persons point of view God can and has changed things on a whim. But when he created humans it was in the design that he wanted them to freely worship him. Forced love is totally different from the genuine thing. So God gave humans freedom. Which we realize is a mistake.

The argument here isent why GOD dosent stop bad people, Its evident from the religious mans point of view why he dosent stop evil things from happening that humans do. Its the thought of why did God allow the serpent to beguile the woman??? Why did GOD allow the "Devil" to roam earth???

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 05:23 PM

The argument here isent why GOD dosent stop bad people, Its evident from the religious mans point of view why he dosent stop evil things from happening that humans do. Its the thought of why did God allow the serpent to beguile the woman??? Why did GOD allow the "Devil" to roam earth???

Because it's a Xanatos Gambit for the sole purpose of making people question their belief and therefore, through the crisis of faith, truly become one with their entity of choice.

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 05:24 PM

Its not as moot point. From the religious persons point of view God can and has changed things on a whim. But when he created humans it was in the design that he wanted them to freely worship him. Forced love is totally different from the genuine thing. So God gave humans freedom. Which we realize is a mistake.

The argument here isent why GOD dosent stop bad people, Its evident from the religious mans point of view why he dosent stop evil things from happening that humans do. Its the thought of why did God allow the serpent to beguile the woman??? Why did GOD allow the "Devil" to roam earth???

Simple the Devil tricked him, and he had a total cry about whole thing (PS if read up on the devil, may find lot of misunderstanding about him, and the idea of the ulgy horned guy, who gets blamed for all evil, in same way god gets all credit for all good, is just one view and stertpyre, anyway the devil isn't what on about here)

First, I never bort up love and can poeple stop doing that, I couldn't care less if he loves me, it's another moot, point we are given to appease us,

don't worry, though life is crap, god loves you, and if you don't compain about it, may even get some great afterlife, so its all ok <honest>
=I mean even if he does love us, is Love without anything done about it, real love, I can easily say I love someone one, but if don't help them or do anything about this love, it is ether not real or so pointless, may as well not be real

The point is, if god is our creator then, he made us the way we are, which means, he must take responiablilty for us and our actions (If I make a robot, with 100% logic and killer weapons, then let it do what it wants, with things gave it, the results are my results (good or bad)
=So lets say, it then goes and kills 100 random poeple, is it the robot at fault or me?????????
=it doesn't matter I may not have meant for it to do that, it still did, (god is same thing, and if you are willing to worship a god which exonerating himself of all responability and gives you nothing, be my guest, but don't expect to get anything for it)

The road to hell is parved with those dead by good intentions#

That means, that just because I didn't mean for result (may have wanted a good result at heart) doesn't mean I say bad result isn't my fault,
=I read a book, where man goes back in time to kill hilter, when he gets back to his own time, the world is nuked wasteland, because of it,

-Now for second point, the reason god does nothing is because doesn't exist, however if does, then the reason is simple, he doesn't see it as his responiablity and so the question isn't why does god not stop evil (he probalby doesn;t even have same view of evil as us) its why does he not see evil as his responability, when he made it? (speically, when he is so willing to take credit for good things we do (massive self condritation, that poeple are willing to take
God=responable for all good
Man=Responable for everthing else ??????)

I mean don't you find it tragic, that the greatest things we do, we are so willing to give credit to another for, rather than being proud of ourselves for change (and the person we give credit, then makes us blame ourselves for all the bad things we do,)

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 05:26 PM

Comparing Obama to God. Priceless.
And what do I see? I see him introducing the shittiest form of socialism into America. I don't want to turn this into a political thread.

you misunderstood, you said who would be better as a leader, and i said a mix between the two, which is what Obama is

Funny, I'm the same age, my ego is inflated to the boot that I believe I can impersonate Gregory House (AND THAT'S A HIGH EGO LEVEL), and yet I never thought of myself like that. I've always thought that it's the other people that are idiots.

im actually quite a modest person myself, we stand on similar ground on this bit here, we both agree that how people act is foolish. this is the only place i am arrogant, on intellect level.

Who the hell do you think I am? I'm a Pole. Which means I grew up with white bears (I have a pet polar bear called "Volodia". And he's really cute!) and I have a picture of Stalin on my wall. Also, I drink lots of vodka. And we recently came up with the idea of masturbate-a-thons with friends in the middle of a cornfield, because our shaman recently confirmed that it helps the plants to grow.

All of the countryside beauty and whatnot is BULL, irrelevant to the discussion! It's beautiful, right. But because we PERCEIVE it as so. God has little to do with it. He made things as they look like, and most of the time they look like this because they work while doing it. Take butterflies, for example. Their stunning beauty isn't because God likes to fap over shiny colours. It's a thing that helps them survive in this world.

of course, they work like it, and its the best way for it. however think of an alternative. if everything was in monocrome, a moth would be the same colour as anything else to camoflarge. in any situation of a planet with life, any solution could occur. and while the beauty is there for necessity inn animals, it still does not mean it was not made from emotion. to make creatures with ways to survive in itself is a form of compassion.

I propose you look out of the window in a good, dramatic moment (Lord Havelock Vetinari once didn't follow this rule and he got a huge disappointment out of it. It made a man like Vetinari slip up. IT'S DANGEROUS.). And see life out in the street. Where people meet. Where they converse and something inside them is fulfilled in every conversation. Where they socialize. The fact that something is

theres no people outside, its night, but indeed out there it is beautiful with the moon in the sky. even in broad daylight, however, the streets of the London outskirts have no trust between others whatsoever, people go about their own business, refusing to converse with each other and always feeling like they are going to get murdered at any point. the only people that do converse are friends, family, and shop assistants. i cannot argue on this point seeing as the modern British culture is almost pure scum is the London sub-urbs aside from some areas. and funnily enough? i live in one of the better areas. that something within them that is fulfilled however is the desire to talk, to fulfill someones sociality. what relelvence does that have?

You know why I don't admire the beauty of the sun outside anymore? Because I don't have anyone to consume this feeling with and it just feels shallow. Unfulfilling. The only feeling I get from having a walk in the farmlands and forests in a little city where my grandmother lives is misery and melancholy, because I have some grasp on reality rather than give in to some "romantic" bullshit. And I also don't opinionate on people because of their view on the world. It might shock you, but I'm not a basement dweller with no friends who lives in a Fallout Vault and has never seen the world outside.

i like your comparison. it just seems you have lost every sense of emotion or at least feel bitter towards them.
i understand that you are lonely, and i say you are not alone in that either. however, you seem to let your bitterness get ahead of you. once more you must have a balance of these. you can live in a fantasy land of romance and adventure and hope it comes true, but then you still have to face the fact that it may not always turn out that way and prepare yourself for the alternatives. i do understand your bitter loneliness which causes sorrow because all the emotions are bottle up inside you. im not going to force you to change, but i will advice you to see the good in things. indeed, when i see beauty it fills me up with a kinda of melancholy myself, but i actually find it quite pleasent and take the time to think and dream.

Ever tried it yourself? You don't even read my posts. If I was strong enough, I'd be a successful StarCraft player, socialize with that girl or bury myself in books. But no. One little emotion, and I wallowed myself in a misanthropic self-pity.

actually, im doing that right now, i have been for many months now. 80% of my time my thoughts are on her. if she does not love you, you can still think about her, but accept it and move on. the longing has never stopped me from driving onwards. while its good to have emotions you must be able to control them and feel the good of each to fully understand.

INSTINCT. Every mother and father does that, even in animal world, with some notable exceptions that I'm not bothered to show. It's your BABY, for Kerrigan's sake.

and that instinct generates rage, defiance, love and desire. like i said, we are Gods children, as is every living animal. and even if he doesnt have any enemies to face, he will still want his children to be safe and will love them however they turn out to be (aside from the ones which do wrong, and perhaps he wont do anything to him is because his power could destroy others, i believe he restricted his power to save us when he started to make life, perhaps even the universe, to stop it from getting destroyed.

The thing with LEGOs is that for the whole universe we're just like those LEGOs. You'd think someone in the galaxy million light years away would even bother if we'd be blown up by something? No. The same way you squish a bug accidentally and you don't give a crap about it. The same way you get all sad about the situation of people in poverty in Africa and you forget about it the next day.

No point for compassion? I'm sorry, but you just contradicted yourself. You don't show compassion to your creations, they're probably not worth familiarizing yourself with them. Or they are simply tools, not art. And creating LEGOs can be a form of art if done properly.

you didnt listen, LEGO is not alive, we are. on the short term, you will feel protection for a MODEL city with MODEL people in it. its a piece of plastic. you may want to keep it, because it holds memories, and achievements, but soon you will want to break it up and make something new. think of the earth like a cradle, and the universe like a large house. because he created this universe for his CHILDREN to be in, who are ALIVE, that makes him equivilent to a parent and he would protect his children, and he worked for 14 BILLION years to make his children a house to live and grow up in safety.

And if you stomp on a baby... and what if you step on an ant? Or kill a fly? Do you have no soul if you do so?

that depends on if it was by accident, and if you feel sorry for it afterwards. i mean, im guilty of this, i do not kill flys, i frieghten them away. i catch spiders and move them outside. the only thing i would directly kill would be a mosquito, because it is a threat to me and most of the time it wakes me up by buzzing in my ear. but even when and kill i kill it, i still think about it with pity for the life it is about to lose and how it was only doing what it was born to do. i feel guilt from hurting anything even when necessary, it does not make it right but it shows i am not completely soleless. if, on the otherhand, you did kill it intentionally, being old enough to know it is wrong, and didnt care, that could make you evil. in human eyes, and insect is worthless, but if you were to kill a puppy or cat you would be considered soulless.

with there it comes down to necessity (like to feed your family or others, etc) or accidents

Evil is objective. If you believe otherwise, I have a bridge to sell you to Terabithia.

and that is the flaw of mankind, people choose to do wrong in the world. fools, each of them. i do not like passing judgement on them but i have to because they force me to. if only i could make them see, then the world would be better. but i cant. even so, this does not come relevent to the debate, ignore it

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 05:41 PM

Simple the Devil tricked him, and he had a total cry about whole thing (PS if read up on the devil, may find lot of misunderstanding about him, and the idea of the ulgy horned guy, who gets blamed for all evil, in same way god gets all credit for all good, is just one view and stertpyre, anyway the devil isn't what on about here)

yeah i know that

The point is, if god is our creator then, he made us the way we are, which means we means he must take responiablilty for us and our actions (If I make a robot, with 100% logic and killer weapons, then let it do what it wants, with things gave it.
=it then goes kills 100 random poeple, is it the robot at fault or me????????? it doesn't matter I may not have meant for it to do that, it still did, (god is same thing, and if you are willing to worship a god which exonerating himself of all responability and gives you nothing, be my guest, but don't expect to get anything for it)

the difference is, unless you built the robot with emotions that humans have, it would feel compassion and stop itself

The road to hell is parved with those dead by good intentions#

That means, that just because I didn't mean for result (may have wanted a good result at heart) doesn't mean I say bad result isn't my fault,
=I read a book, where man goes back in time to kill hilter, when he gets back to his own time, the world is nuked wasteland, because of it,

ironicly i reached that same conclusion that if WWII did not happen it may have been worse, which is why it needed to happen. it then makes Hitler a necessary evil.

Now for second point, the reason god does nothing is because doesn't exist, however if does, then the reason is simple, he doesn't see it as his responiablity and so the question isn't why does god not stop evil (he probalby doesn;t even have same view of evil as us) its why does he not see evil as his responability, when he may it? (speically, when he is so willing to take credit for good things we do (massive self condritation, that poeple are willing to take)

saying that he does have the same view as us, like i said maybe he cannot use his power in the physical realm, perhaps he put a limit on himself to protect us, or maybe he can only manipulate things within reason. he cannot go against what he has already made, and to get rid of evil he has to either turn back time, which would destroy everything he worked for, or wipe out humanity completely, for we all have done evil. since he clearly isnt willing to do either, its only reasonable to say he is as helpless in stopping evil as us, dispite him being incrediablly powerful

I mean don't you find it tragic, that the greatest things we do, we are so willing to give credit to another for, rather than being proud of ourselves for change (and the person we give credit, then makes us blame ourselves for all the bad things we do,)

we hardly give credit to God, we thank him for watching over us and bringing us to existance, but yes we did make some great work

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 05:57 PM

yeah i know that

indeed

the difference is, unless you built the robot with emotions that humans have, it would feel compassion and stop itself

One=the point isn't whether he kills or not ot how hr kills or even why he kills, the point is, his actions are my responability(good or bad)
Two=He could also have emotion and that is what drives him to kill (as we do) He may have no emotion and that stops him killing, it doesn't matter, fact is, he has chance of killing and if does, it is my fault he does

ironicly i reached that same conclusion that if WWII did not happen it may have been worse, which is why it needed to happen. it then makes Hitler a necessary evil.

Indeed, I would go into this, but off topic, so just indeed

saying that he does have the same view as us, like i said maybe he cannot use his power in the physical realm, perhaps he put a limit on himself to protect us, or maybe he can only manipulate things within reason. he cannot go against what he has already made, and to get rid of evil he has to either turn back time, which would destroy everything he worked for, or wipe out humanity completely, for we all have done evil. since he clearly isnt willing to do either, its only reasonable to say he is as helpless in stopping evil as us, dispite him being incrediablly powerful

Then he isn't a god:-(if was, these things wouldn't count to him)
=And ether if is true, fact doesn't change, he made us, therefore he must take responability for us (good and bad)
PS as for this bit, go into the book section and read my book, badly written, but on about gods, and you may find it little interesting

we hardly give credit to God, we thank him for watching over us and bringing us to existance, but yes we did make some great work[/QUOTE]

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 06:03 PM

One=the point isn't whether he kills or not ot how hr kills or even why he kills, the point is, his actions are my responability(good or bad)
Two=He could also have emotion and that is what drives him to kill (as we do) He may have no emotion and that stops him killing, it doesn't matter, fact is, he has chance of killing and if does, it is my fault he does

i know, im just saying if it had a built in sense of compassion it might have stopped. the only way it would go on a rampage like that is is if someone angered it extremely

Indeed, I would go into this, but off topic, so just indeed

no, go ahead, if its about alternative possabilities in time or the universe, feel free to move to it when you wish

Then he isn't a god:-(if was, these things wouldn't count to him)
=And ether if is true, fact doesn't change, he made us, therefore he must take responability for us (good and bad)
PS as for this bit, go into the book section and read my book, badly written, but on about gods, and you may find it little interesting

im saying that he limited himself to protect us, its possable. and of course, he should take responsability of our action- to a necessary degree

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 06:07 PM

i know, im just saying if it had a built in sense of compassion it might have stopped. the only way it would go on a rampage like that is is if someone angered it extremely

Couldn't god do same

no, go ahead, if its about alternative possabilities in time or the universe, feel free to move to it when you wish

maybe in it bit, but would say you would like the book (by Mr Fry)

im saying that he limited himself to protect us, its possable. and of course, he should take responsability of our action- to a necessary degree

So I'm right, ether he is at fault or he isn't what says he is (ether way, he fails as a god)

Aninamar

08-05-2009, 06:13 PM

you misunderstood, you said who would be better as a leader, and i said a mix between the two, which is what Obama is

Which was exactly my point all along. It came from that episode of Star Trek where Kirk was split into two Kirks - the good side, but it was weak and without confidence, and the evil side - confident, but erratic and ruthless. The mix of the two makes leaders. You don't read my posts. And I don't see Obama as a strong leader. More like someone who was elected because people saw it like this: "You don't vote for Obama, then you're racist". He has very little experience with what he does having only about 100 days in the Senate when he became a candidate (although my data might not be the most accurate). I don't foreshadow anything good out of his presidency - I'd rather see the world capitalize on the peace mission in Iraq and Afghanistan - Obama just wants to do good for everyone, looks at the world through pink glasses - but IT'S NOT THE POLITICAL THREAD. If you touch the subject of Obama again, I WILL SHOOT YOU. Let's move on...

of course, they work like it, and its the best way for it. however think of an alternative. if everything was in monocrome, a moth would be the same colour as anything else to camoflarge. in any situation of a planet with life, any solution could occur. and while the beauty is there for necessity inn animals, it still does not mean it was not made from emotion. to make creatures with ways to survive in itself is a form of compassion.

You do realize you fail biology forever? There's a reason why we don't have green skin - because we don't have chloroplasts. We also don't have fangs, because we don't need them. Evolution thing. If a moth doesn't camouflage itself, it's not because the world is monochromatic, it's because the moth doesn't need to camouflage. It's hard enough to even catch the bugger.

to make creatures with ways to survive in itself is a form of compassion.
No, it's to ensure they, oh I don't know, DON'T DIE the second they face their problems? Evolution. We wouldn't have anything going for us if we didn't have the power to create things within the set laws of physics. A lion would be just a sissy without his claws and speed. An antilope wouldn't survive without the survival instinct that even Rincewind would surely admire.

theres no people outside, its night, but indeed out there it is beautiful with the moon in the sky. even in broad daylight, however, the streets of the London outskirts have no trust between others whatsoever, people go about their own business, refusing to converse with each other and always feeling like they are going to get murdered at any point. the only people that do converse are friends, family, and shop assistants. i cannot argue on this point seeing as the modern British culture is almost pure scum is the London sub-urbs aside from some areas. and funnily enough? i live in one of the better areas. that something within them that is fulfilled however is the desire to talk, to fulfill someones sociality. what relelvence does that have?

Sad thing I didn't think of the art and literature argument (found in my now edited post above) until after I clicked "Reply", otherwise you wouldn't have missed the point. (Although I guess I'm overestimating you a little right now.)

And it has a lot of relevance. Contact with other people brings fulfillment to life. And life has to be fulfilled with something. Otherwise you're a human wreck like me. I'd have a good hearty conversation with a friend any day over a walk under the sun.
The fact that we can have this little world of ourselves is wonderful. That we create working societies. How many friends would many people have if it weren't for a bar or a church near your home?
i like your comparison. it just seems you have lost every sense of emotion or at least feel bitter towards them.

No. "It appears you have that Monk ability that allows you to jump as far as you want, but for you, it applies to conclusions." I'm also a human being. I feel emotions. The fact that I have little empathy towards people doesn't hinder this one. Maybe I'm not quite as emotional as certain other people, but that doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard.
i understand that you are lonely, and i say you are not alone in that either. Lemme also write some more shit that any normal person already knows and act as if I'm a spiritual guide through a life of a person I've never met LOL!

Yeah, you failed that one.

and that instinct generates rage, defiance, love and desire. like i said, we are Gods children, as is every living animal. and even if he doesnt have any enemies to face, he will still want his children to be safe and will love them however they turn out to be (aside from the ones which do wrong, and perhaps he wont do anything to him is because his power could destroy others, i believe he restricted his power to save us when he started to make life, perhaps even the universe, to stop it from getting destroyed.

1: And where the hell did you take the latter half of this info from? It makes no sense.
2: But it's an instinct. It doesn't convince me in anything. Sure, we know a human parent has very deep emotions for his human children. But it's rather obvious why he does? I'd think if you had to go through all the trouble that is childbirth, you'd not dismiss it so easily. After all, it's your next of kin. And it's your instinct to preserve your children. Gay people don't want to adopt children because they love all children, they do so because they wish to have this bond.

you didnt listen, LEGO is not alive, we are. on the short term, you will feel protection for a MODEL city with MODEL people in it. its a piece of plastic. you may want to keep it, because it holds memories, and achievements, but soon you will want to break it up and make something new. think of the earth like a cradle, and the universe like a large house. because he created this universe for his CHILDREN to be in, who are ALIVE, that makes him equivilent to a parent and he would protect his children, and he worked for 14 BILLION years to make his children a house to live and grow up in safety.

No, it's you who didn't listen. I pointed out the irrelevance of our singular beings in the face of the world. And the irrelevance of this world in face of the UNIVERSE.
If God had emotions, many things wouldn't make sense, and we would have more God's interventions in those times than, oh I don't know... NONE at all.
And you have emotions. You create your little LEGO world. Your world doesn't have to make sense. But you can give yourself to it. It's what ART is about.
Maybe the comparison with LEGO was bad. Would you scrap a beautiful painting? A great work of literature? A wonderful piece of music? A LEGO castle you spent your lifetime building? Why not? Answer yourself.

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 06:14 PM

Couldn't god do same

he did, just alot of humans dont use their brains enough, a robot would do much better and is easier to reprogram to have more compassion than anger

maybe in it bit, but would say you would like the book (by Mr Fry)

yeah ill have to read it sometime, i want to finish reading the puzzle of evil and puzzle of ethics first

So I'm right, ether he is at fault or he isn't what says he is (ether way, he fails as a god)

i wouldnt say he failed at being a God. maybe he intended it to happen, making it that he is not an entirely good God, but perhaps he is good with that if he knew that the alternative was worse, perhaps why hitler die kill millions of jews and such, and if that didnt happen, like in the book, the world would be worse off. or maybe we are an experiment of sorts in which he watches to see what will happen. this is not to say he is not to blame, but perhaps it was intended, or maybe not, who knows?

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 06:40 PM

You do realize you fail biology forever? There's a reason why we don't have green skin - because we don't have chloroplasts. We also don't have fangs, because we don't need them. Evolution thing. If a moth doesn't camouflage itself, it's not because the world is monochromatic, it's because the moth doesn't need to camouflage. It's hard enough to even catch the bugger.

No, it's to ensure they, oh I don't know, DON'T DIE the second they face their problems? Evolution. We wouldn't have anything going for us if we didn't have the power to create things within the set laws of physics. A lion would be just a sissy without his claws and speed. An antilope wouldn't survive without the survival instinct that even Rincewind would surely admire.

of course, i knew about the biology, but even then you can look at it that God guided them there, my point is things are often beautiful, regardless if it is for their survival or not

Sad thing I didn't think of the art and literature argument (found in my now edited post above) until after I clicked "Reply", otherwise you wouldn't have missed the point. (Although I guess I'm overestimating you a little right now.)

maybe, but perhaps you are not making your points clear.

And it has a lot of relevance. Contact with other people brings fulfillment to life. And life has to be fulfilled with something. Otherwise you're a human wreck like me. I'd have a good hearty conversation with a friend any day over a walk under the sun.
The fact that we can have this little world of ourselves is wonderful. That we create working societies. How many friends would many people have if it weren't for a bar or a church near your home?

well... in my area... none, most people in my area are muslim or athiest, and i dont think they go to church. bars, enough i guess, for the people who drink that is

No. "It appears you have that Monk ability that allows you to jump as far as you want, but for you, it applies to conclusions." I'm also a human being. I feel emotions. The fact that I have little empathy towards people doesn't hinder this one. Maybe I'm not quite as emotional as certain other people, but that doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard.

Yeah, you failed that one.

you really dont have to be rude, this isnt an argument its a debate. if you want to continue wallowing in your own misery go ahead

1: And where the hell did you take the latter half of this info from? It makes no sense.
2: But it's an instinct. It doesn't convince me in anything. Sure, we know a human parent has very deep emotions for his human children. But it's rather obvious why he does? I'd think if you had to go through all the trouble that is childbirth, you'd not dismiss it so easily. After all, it's your next of kin. And it's your instinct to preserve your children. Gay people don't want to adopt children because they love all children, they do so because they wish to have this bond.

and if God created the universe to this point over several billion years to get us here? i dont think he would dismiss this as easily either.

No, it's you who didn't listen. I pointed out the irrelevance of our singular beings in the face of the world. And the irrelevance of this world in face of the UNIVERSE.
If God had emotions, many things wouldn't make sense, and we would have more God's interventions in those times than, oh I don't know... NONE at all.
And you have emotions. You create your little LEGO world. Your world doesn't have to make sense. But you can give yourself to it. It's what ART is about.
Maybe the comparison with LEGO was bad. Would you scrap a beautiful painting? A great work of literature? A wonderful piece of music? A LEGO castle you spent your lifetime building? Why not? Answer yourself.

of course you wouldnt scrap art, but then thats a different situation.

of course the size of the universe says we are inadequate on our small planet, but we still have yet to meet life forms from another planet, and if we never do after searching the whole universe, what does that say?

ok im stopping this debate right hire i tire of this and it isnt going anywhere, and it seems my opponent is too rude to have a good and fun debate with.

Fat1Fared

08-05-2009, 06:42 PM

he did, just alot of humans dont use their brains enough, a robot would do much better and is easier to reprogram to have more compassion than anger

very judgmental grim and very wrong:-I mean, just taken all worlds problems and boxed them, if it was that simple, would we still be talking about it now, would I have to spend 60,000 grandand 7 years of my life, paying a uni to teach me about it, would there even be the problem, stupidity isn;t root of all evil, that is stupid, making the nuke took hell of lot of brain power, doesn't mean it is right or stupid
(Its like that misquotion, money is root of all evil, no it isn't)

yeah ill have to read it sometime, i want to finish reading the puzzle of evil and puzzle of ethics first

unless, your actually on about a book, good luck with that one, sent me post card when done; 0.o (I'm joking with you)

i wouldnt say he failed at being a God. maybe he intended it to happen, making it that he is not an entirely good God, but perhaps he is good with that if he knew that the alternative was worse, perhaps why hitler die kill millions of jews and such, and if that didnt happen, like in the book, the world would be worse off. or maybe we are an experiment of sorts in which he watches to see what will happen. this is not to say he is not to blame,
but perhaps it was intended, or maybe not, who knows?

Cause he did, if real god, he would be perfect and know everything and....etc and so none of this would apply, (he wouldn't even need to experiment, he should already know answers,) So if he what your saying, then it means he isn't real god, and all he can be at BEST is a creature which is older and smarter than us, but that doesn't make he is always right and his opinon is more valid than mine, in same way, someone who is 65 with IQ of 145 isn't always right and more vaild (opinion wise) than someone who is 12 with IQ of 20 (and it deff doesn't make him god or perfect being)

Therefore God cannot be real, (at best we have pale pretender (though more likely nothing all,) who you are so Disparate to keep on his golden throne of fictitious luminosity, that you are now vainly saying, that he may have meant for all these mistakes all along, in some vain attempt to validate his apathetic nature and massive misjudgements, (come on, am I only one who finds the agrument, he meant to mess up, a little weak))

grimfang999

08-05-2009, 06:47 PM

very judgmental grim and very wrong:-Way to make all worlds problems and box them, if it was that simple, would we still be talking about it now, would I have to spend 60,000 grand paying a uni to teach me about, would there even be the problem, stupidity isn;t root of all evil, that is stupid, making the nuke took hell of lot of brain power,
(Its like that misquotion, money is root of all evil, no it isn't)

i said alot of mankind, not all, there are many great people, its just its seems a not great deal of people do

unless, your actually on about a book, good luck with that one, sent me post card when dont; 0.o

they are books yes

Cause he did, if real god, he would be perfect and know everything and....etc and so none of this would appeal, which means if he isn't real god, all he can be at BEST is a creature which is older and smarter than us, but that doesn't make he is always right and his opinon is more valid than mine, in same way, someone who is 65 with IQ of 145 isn't always right and more vaild (opinion wise) than someone who is 12 with IQ of 20

Therefore God cannot be real, (at best we have pale pretender (though more likely nothing all,) who you are so Disparate to keep on his golden throne of fictitious luminosity, that you are now vainly saying, that he may have meant for your these mistakes all long, in some vain attempt to validate his apathetic nature and massive misjudgements, (come on, am I only one who finds the agurment, he meant to mess up, a little weak))

ill argue this some other time when my brain is working better, its tired and im tired

HolyShadow

08-05-2009, 07:31 PM

I think that is most insulting thing I have ever read, so if a, he God makes everything and so all "injustices" and unfairness's were made by him (more on this later) but we cannot blame him for this, however he can still take credit for the one thing poeple have, these poeple go through shit everyday, die everyday, lose everything everday, but still fight on and then some poeple (not god, here, but poeple) who live in nice places away from this go, "Isn't god great for helping them live through shit he gives them"

Screw him, when I was watching things no child should have to see (which I'm not going into on internet, so believe it or don't,) God didn't give me the strength to get through that, I did mself, I was one who did it and I was one who came out the other side (the poeple who helped me, were myself and several other humans)

And I know that I have far from worse life ever, just by chance of birth place, so I know that the poeple who have gone through lot worse than me, deverse far more respect than that.

To me, the ONE great thing, the ONE redeeding quality almost all humans have, is our ability to fight to surivive, it is something we hardly give up, and so ether God has to accept that if he is one who gave us that, then he gave us ALL our qualities, "good and bad" or he has to accept that humans made this themselves and he does bugger all, WE fight to survive, that is our gift and I'm not letting god take that from us.

So to you, No one is to blame? Whether it is you or someone else, cannot blame reaction.

Anyway, onto god, well if God is real, then God is to blame or God didn't what he said he did, now I think God must be a pretty childish person if he is way humans see him, because he is quiet willing to take credit for good things, (must be gods work,) however the second something bad happens, God quickly says "I was against from start" hmmm, sorry god, ether you take credit for both or you take no credit at all!!!
=Now like you say, god created us, then it is god's falt, because he made us how we are, he made the world how it is, this was his choice to play with life and so our actions are nothing more than an exstration of his actions, our choices are his choices, we are him, so at end of the line, the book stoppes with god, because we are gods mistakes and so if god wants to take credit for our creation and say he is a fully holy creatre, then he must take responability for it (which he isn't) his only other choice is to say he didn't do all he did and so therefore, he isn't god, but lest puts blame back with us.
(I don't believe in god, so I cannot blame, but I would sure as hell blame him if did ^_-, He choose to make us, he choose to make murderers, he choose to make rapists, they were his choices and until god takes responability for himself, how can we (nothing more than extriation of him) take responability for anthing, thats bad parenting)

this to me, is what proves cannot be a god to be honest, if we look past fact that just looks like an old legend poeple cling onto, as have nothing left to cling onto, and it is nothing more than trying to give meaning to the meaningless (in a way, that dog runs after its own tail) god simply cannot exist, as to be a god is to be the ultimate perfect being, and nothing can be perfect, as perfect is in eye of the beholder, so what I see as god, you see as devil, what I see as devil, you see as god) therefore god cannot ever exist, because the idea of a god is impossible, now we could have a creator, but that isn't a god, I mean humans have creatre life, are we now gods? (not to me) I doubt we have creator, but it isn't impossible, a god on other hand is. You see, for god to perfect he would in my eyes have to admit to his mistakes, which he doesn't, therefore I just killed god (hmmm)

Saying:- "Give me perfection, and I will give you god"

Not that lazy, infact takes lot of effort ^_^
-but on serious side, poeple like to blame others for their mistakes (god seems to be included in this group, which would explain a lot) so if going to blame someone else, blame the big guy on top and fact is holy, I know you have not had great life, but it could have been a lot worse and if were born in county where your parsents were murderer, your two older sidlings died from aids and you at age of 12 are looking after 10 other sidlings, wouldn't you ask why god had forsaken you to such a life? (God is meant to be justice, yet in his idea of justice, the injust win)

With first bit, it has some truth, god gives meaning to meaningless for poeple

As for second, in my opinion, it is half right, yes when you believe in something, but it has no phyiscal force, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as I thought is a real thing, however that doesn't mean that it is, anymore that a thought, (so the thought of a god is real, making a form of god real, but it isn't god you believe in)
=but with second part holy, well the belief and love of fire breathing dragons, Sun-Men and Ghosts have been in thoughts of humans for Millions of years too, doesn't make them real, God is story which to cling onto, nothing more, to me
What are you even arguing?

God is in the minds of the people fighting for their lives. I don't really fucking care what you think. Go to a person an inch from death and tell them, "There's no afterlife and your life sucked! I hope you die painfully!" and they'll reach out and choke you.

These people need the idea of God in order to fight back. You can choose whether or not to believe. I don't care. But don't you dare try to make an argument that it's the fault of a being that might not even exist. I never said that God made the good things. It's humans that make the bad, and nowadays, there's barely any good. If there is good, it's just self-proclaimed.

The red cross association was going to SUE the team that made earthbound for using a red coss on the hospitals in the game. They would've probably lost, but damn. The red cross association isn't all good then.

Humans make everything that's good bad. School! A great idea! And then they install fucking fingerprint scanners as a total invasion of privacy. Privacy! Good, until the fucking terrorists plead the fifth and people die because of it. The patriot act! Good until some racist cops tase a midde-eastern man because he's a tiny bit noncompliant. Nationalities! Good to have pride in... until the KKK fucking beat you to death. Death! Wonderful in decreasing the population until a murderer comes along and kills your whole damn family. Family! Good, until you realize your parents shoot up all the time and eventually overdose because of drugs. Drugs! They used to be plants which helped the environment... until we decided to make some fairly harmless ones illegal in order to keep a monopoly going on other sources of wood. Wood! Useful until we start using it to accent certain guns to kill each other. War! Useful in... what exactly? Nothing~~

Humans made the idea of nuclear war, and there were several decades of fear all over the damn world between the US and Russia. The reason? Mainly because the leaders of each country refused to back down. This was caused by humans for the sole purpose of perpetuating and instilling fear to the other group of people because they don't agree with each other in IDEAS.

Now, this'll probably get argued because of the sheer stupidity of, "Well, if I don't argue, he'll be right, and if he's right, I'm wrong! I can't be wrong, I'm the main character!" But regardless of that, I'll try connecing it to my original point: Humans cause the good, and the good is always corrupted by the bad. The humans cause the bad corruption, so there's no true good in the world toward other human beings. Everything has ulterior motives. Because of that, there are several groups of people that are impoverished and fighting every single day to survive. A lot of them need religion, and need God in order to believe that there's hope.

Your life must be grand. That's the reason you don't believe in God. You keep talking about how smart you people are, yet you refuse to open your mind to the simple thought of, "Well, maybe an omnipotent being following someone around, telling them everything will be alright is a GOOD thing to people that deal with the reality of death every single day." Go to areas like that and ask them if they believe in God. A good lot will say yes, and that they also believe in medicine. God is confidence given to people that need it. If you don't need it, don't try to convince others that there's no God and to just give up living. That's rude and simply wrong. And instead of accepting that, there's a good chance one of you will bring something up about how we define wrong. Humans have corrupted that too, but with the good comes the bad, and the only way to define what's good and bad is indeed to base it on the collective thoughts of all beings in your group and in other groups. Humans have been fighting for right since the beginning of our existence. Hope is good and goodness is hope. Hope can be truth or a lie, but damnit, hope is flawed perfection, comma.

Xanadu

08-05-2009, 11:35 PM

if god is perfect why does he get so mad?

Fat1Fared

08-06-2009, 05:19 AM

First holy, if you don't want poeple to disagree with you, never state your opinion, as no matter what you put, someone will disagree with you and in course you stating your opinion, your disagreeing with them in first place, so if you have the right state your opinion, then they have right to disagree with it, as you disagreed with them in first place, (I know several poeple on this site who have different views, that would like to talk about, but don't state it as don't like to debate, nothing wrong with that,)

What are you even arguing?

Simple if read it, as put it million times, so this can be last time I put it now, as if no understands it after this, then never will:-

0=I don't believe in god, but if there is a god, then.......
1=If god made good, then he made evil as well
2=If god made evil by mistake, he isn't god, as god's don't make mistakes, gods make plans that we don't understand ^_-(this leads onto 3)
3=This means he ether made evil on purpose or it was an mistaken by-product of his creations (first way means who worship a god who made your life crap on purpose, the second means he isn't a god:-4=BOTH mean that it is his fault)

God is in the minds of the people fighting for their lives. I don't really fucking care what you think. Go to a person an inch from death and tell them, "There's no afterlife and your life sucked! I hope you die painfully!" and they'll reach out and choke you.

Doubt it, he is seconds away from death, and lets face it, if he needs some Fabricated afterlife to deal with his own mortially, that isn't my fault:-If it were me, I would get annoyed by all this god talk, and everlasting life, whats so wrong with nothingness

These people need the idea of God in order to fight back. You can choose whether or not to believe. I don't care. But don't you dare try to make an argument that it's the fault of a being that might not even exist. I never said that God made the good things. It's humans that make the bad, and nowadays, there's barely any good. If there is good, it's just self-proclaimed.

Now, first I'm not going to say that religion hasn't done good things in past and inspired poeple to fight evil (Look at Remro or Soviet Poland) however that doesn't mean you need a god to do it
=Look at the picture of the Man Infront of a Tank from tienem square, that has become the symbol of resisting evil and it wasn't done by religious man or even a powerful one, it was just a normal everyday joe, who didn't believe in god (well if the man china killed was him) who showed what a man can do
=Infact their are many cases where religion has stopped poeple rebelling, as it appreases them with it ideas on death

The red cross association was going to SUE the team that made earthbound for using a red coss on the hospitals in the game. They would've probably lost, but damn. The red cross association isn't all good then.

what does this prove? (that an ogrinzation made to help poeple does bad things as well, so it is the humans which do that yes, but god made the humans have their senses of what to do, he made the humans willing to do this act, we didn't do that ourselves, well unless willing to admit isn't a god in first place)

Humans make everything that's good bad. School! A great idea! And then they install fucking fingerprint scanners as a total invasion of privacy. Privacy! Good, until the fucking terrorists plead the fifth and people die because of it. The patriot act! Good until some racist cops tase a midde-eastern man because he's a tiny bit noncompliant. Nationalities! Good to have pride in... until the KKK fucking beat you to death. Death! Wonderful in decreasing the population until a murderer comes along and kills your whole damn family. Family! Good, until you realize your parents shoot up all the time and eventually overdose because of drugs. Drugs! They used to be plants which helped the environment... until we decided to make some fairly harmless ones illegal in order to keep a monopoly going on other sources of wood. Wood! Useful until we start using it to accent certain guns to kill each other. War! Useful in... what exactly? Nothing~~

Same as above, if humans made it bad (as to look at your examples indepth, would be too far off topic to have any point) and god made us with ability to make it bad, then god is still at fault, if he hadn't give us that ability then it wouldn't happen (this isn't debating if it was on purpose or not, that doesn't matter in anyway, other than to weaken his goddy position)

Humans made the idea of nuclear war, and there were several decades of fear all over the damn world between the US and Russia. The reason? Mainly because the leaders of each country refused to back down. This was caused by humans for the sole purpose of perpetuating and instilling fear to the other group of people because they don't agree with each other in IDEAS.

Actually, the whole thing was done to stop war, they made it so that both sides were to scared to fight, now may sound like insane plan, but it worked, so maybe the nuke was good thing then?(PS there was lot of backing down as well, if each side didn't back down, then it would have been very hot war)

Now, this'll probably get argued because of the sheer stupidity of, "Well, if I don't argue, he'll be right, and if he's right, I'm wrong! I can't be wrong, I'm the main character!" But regardless of that, I'll try connecing it to my original point: Humans cause the good, and the good is always corrupted by the bad. The humans cause the bad corruption, so there's no true good in the world toward other human beings. Everything has ulterior motives. Because of that, there are several groups of people that are impoverished and fighting every single day to survive. A lot of them need religion, and need God in order to believe that there's hope.

No holy, like I have said in the past, their isn't any such thing as 100% answer, so this is simply you put down your view and me putting mine, if don't like that, don't post your view:-
=Yes the humans are direct cause, but whether he meant for it or not, he caused the bad in us (who knows he may not even see it as bad, I mean we are talking here as if bad is objective point, which isn't) so he is still the one at center of it
=Ether god did cause us to be like this or he didn't, he cannot actually be god if he keeps taking the side, I made the good, you made the bad.

Your life must be grand. That's the reason you don't believe in God. You keep talking about how smart you people are, yet you refuse to open your mind to the simple thought of, "Well, maybe an omnipotent being following someone around, telling them everything will be alright is a GOOD thing to people that deal with the reality of death every single day." Go to areas like that and ask them if they believe in God. A good lot will say yes, and that they also believe in medicine. God is confidence given to people that need it. If you don't need it, don't try to convince others that there's no God and to just give up living. That's rude and simply wrong. And instead of accepting that, there's a good chance one of you will bring something up about how we define wrong. Humans have corrupted that too, but with the good comes the bad, and the only way to define what's good and bad is indeed to base it on the collective thoughts of all beings in your group and in other groups. Humans have been fighting for right since the beginning of our existence. Hope is good and goodness is hope. Hope can be truth or a lie, but damnit, hope is flawed perfection, comma.

At the minute my life is actually pretty good, but it took 17 years to get there, life is rarely perfect, but unlike lot of poeple, I can accept that, as I know it could be lot worse as well, but that is moot point, as if I was born in say Aferica and raised massively christain, my views probably would be different, however that wouldn't be me anymore anyway, so doesn't matter, this is who I am and this is what I believe right now (as may change, who knows)

=Yes I do believe poeple are smart, sure we can do dumb things, (specially in groups) but I also think we can do great things when set our minds to it (Lloyd Goerge started life in total provety, he ended his life as the most powerful man in Britsh Empire, who can be credited with making the plan which won WW1, and was one of forrunners for the acts which saved man poeple in provety, and he was far from a good Christian)

=Holy, you say I refuse to open my mind to idea of god, yet lets face who do you know, who thinks about the idea of god than me, (maybe Ish and sally, but cannot think of many) just I came to conclusion he doesn't exist and if he does, he cannot be what he says he is and so if he lies to get followers rules with apathy, he isn't worthy of my loyality anyway:-(I went to a RC school and one thing I found was that, I knew more about religion, and ideas of god than most of the Christains (mainly catholic) there)
=So maybe being open minded is looking at it deeply and coming to conclusion, if isn't then it is merely having no true view at all, and if it is that, then you holy are in the section with me and just about every other human, which leaves you in position of not being open minded ether (and lets face it, I never said I was open minded, or smart, infact being smart is really hard to judge to me, and I didn't say wanted to be open minded and to be open minded isn't to be smart anyway

=Now holy, why would you say that if there is no god, there is no reason to live, I think lots of reasons to live (infact holy, who was it, who made meaning of life thread and spent 3 pages trying to convince you, there is) I mean even if he does exist, he doesn't really give us a reason to live, unless you believe that a reason which has no actually meaning beyond a dog casing its own tail is reason

=And like said don't need god if surivive this world, you need yourself, if he find the strenght to get up and do something, don't give credit to god, pat yourself on the back for once

=And there is the irony in this, with last part, you say everything about humans is bad (even the good) and so if humans are causes of evil, god caused us to be that way, therefore still his fault
(PS no good and evil isn't set, but that doesn't matter, fact is, we are what we are and if god did make us, he made this way, meaning our actions are his fault and he cannot take that, then he shouldn't have made us in first place)

Xanadu he doesn't get mad, he merely has devine plan ^_-

Aninamar

08-06-2009, 06:04 AM

grimfang, let me summarize in a few points what the hell is wrong with you:
-you wimp out because I happen to have a rather more nailing, to the point way of expressing my opinion;
-you take what I am saying at face value without even stopping to consider what do I mean by saying this. I NEVER SAID people don't socialize outside of churches and bars. What I meant is: you can take volunteering, or sport club, or tons of other places done by MAN, not by NATURE, and you will find people there. If you don't know about a place where you could meet people, then either your hometown sucks or you're a shelled nolife with no imagination or desire to live with people. (Which wouldn't be surprising, mr. "My Intellect Is So Awesome For My Age".)
of course, i knew about the biology, but even then you can look at it that God guided them there, my point is things are often beautiful, regardless if it is for their survival or not
-You fail to READ MY GODDAMN POSTS. I'm saying all the time: They're only beautiful because WE PERCEIVE THEM AS SO! That's why what is beautiful is an individual's personal opinion. If the world was made any different, I'm sure we would learn to appreciate it just as well.
-The point of my comparison with LEGO has no bearing on the fact they don't live. But an omnipotent creator would not get taken by emotion and therefore created perfect world within the set rules. But we're humans. Our LEGO castles are merely works of art.
As for living beings vs toys...
What if we're merely toys in God's hands? How much of our free will is just cause and effect?
Here's a little summary: (If he exists) God can't have emotions. If he does, he's not omnipotent. If he does, he's just a much more powerful being than us, but in no way omnipotent. Obama ruins USA. God doesn't interfere within this world because he doesn't want to break the rules he set at the beginning of creation. I rest my case.

grimfang999

08-06-2009, 07:43 AM

meh, your partially right i guess, about wimping out, but i had my reasons, such as being exhausted and such, and dont forget when it comes to arguing about God, existance, emotion, whatever about him, the one arguing against is going to win because they are backing the science side which has more solid evidence than the side of God, which is mostly theoretical.

but now my minds thinking a little more clearly- not at its best, but to a reasonable degree- of course we percieve it as beautiful, but then do we percieve slime as beautiful? waste thrown into a bin which has gone rotten? if you percieved that as beautiful then people would say something is wrong with you. of course, then it comes down to what is true beauty, and then we would have to say that it is the universe which is true beauty itself, and that just brings as back to the beginning

well when you say about the LEGO point, this is the best world he could have made with the set rules to keep the ecosystem functioning. this doesnt really prove anything, except God is very practical. and if i have misunderstood your point then you just havent made it very clear.
just remember this though, art is a release of emotion. when and artist, poets or whatever form of art it is makes something, they usually use their emotions to form the image, theres at least one use of emotion and perhaps if the univere is Gods work of art, then he must have put emotion into making it as well, otherwise he would have no inspiration or desire to make it, it just wouldnt be. if this is irrelivent to your point, read above knowing i dont really care anymore, im getting kind of bored of that phrase

of course, we could be toys to him, but that would mean he either doesnt know what to do with them anymore, or is playing with our lives in such a subtle way we dont reallise. in addition, why wouldnt he have thrown us or stomped on us as a child would his toys? see above because im expecting the same responce, and once more, i dont care.

summery: if God exists, we can't PROVE that God has emotions, but then we can see that he could also very likely have emotions, and until we actually find him (if we ever do) we cannot actually know

Xanadu

08-06-2009, 01:11 PM

I worship the sun, which isn't sentient (to our knowledge)
"god" could live in the sun-you never know

HolyShadow

08-06-2009, 07:21 PM

Simple if read it, as put it million times, so this can be last time I put it now, as if no understands it after this, then never will:-

0=I don't believe in god, but if there is a god, then.......
1=If god made good, then he made evil as well
2=If god made evil by mistake, he isn't god, as god's don't make mistakes, gods make plans that we don't understand ^_-(this leads onto 3)
3=This means he ether made evil on purpose or it was an mistaken by-product of his creations (first way means who worship a god who made your life crap on purpose, the second means he isn't a god:-4=BOTH mean that it is his fault)

Gods can be killed. They have flaws. In fact, the serpent in the story of Adam and Eve was a pagan deity, I believe. A benevolent one. Christianity and such changed a benevolent pagan deity into a reference to Satan, the generally most hated being in Christian lore.

Christians are arrogant with their God... to think of something that's absolute perfection. It just sounds like... a dream. Ever heard of the akasha sword?

Doubt it, he is seconds away from death, and lets face it, if he needs some Fabricated afterlife to deal with his own mortially, that isn't my fault:-If it were me, I would get annoyed by all this god talk, and everlasting life, whats so wrong with nothingness

That's because you have no clue as to their suffering. Don't pretend that you know what you're talking about, because your opinion honestly has no place in my argument. In fact, I already accouted for people like you. You have no need for the idea of a God. The idea of, "Tomorrow will be better than today" is all they want, even if it's false. Hope is very important in adverse conditions with no chance in fighting back.

Now, first I'm not going to say that religion hasn't done good things in past and inspired poeple to fight evil (Look at Remro or Soviet Poland) however that doesn't mean you need a god to do it
=Look at the picture of the Man Infront of a Tank from tienem square, that has become the symbol of resisting evil and it wasn't done by religious man or even a powerful one, it was just a normal everyday joe, who didn't believe in god (well if the man china killed was him) who showed what a man can do
=Infact their are many cases where religion has stopped poeple rebelling, as it appreases them with it ideas on death

Or they couldn't rebel because they were starving and AIDS-infected. Ever think of that?

what does this prove? (that an ogrinzation made to help poeple does bad things as well, so it is the humans which do that yes, but god made the humans have their senses of what to do, he made the humans willing to do this act, we didn't do that ourselves, well unless willing to admit isn't a god in first place)

In order to make this argument, it would mean that you believe that God made humans. You use that as a base to disprove something I never said. Think before you speak.

Same as above, if humans made it bad (as to look at your examples indepth, would be too far off topic to have any point) and god made us with ability to make it bad, then god is still at fault, if he hadn't give us that ability then it wouldn't happen (this isn't debating if it was on purpose or not, that doesn't matter in anyway, other than to weaken his goddy position)

You're proving my point. You're taking the fault off of humans and blaming God. Blame yourself, human. And again, you're using the thought of, "God made humans with these traits" as a base to disprove it. I don't care whether an idea created by humans (Animals don't have souls, after all *Eyeroll*) made the humans or the humans made the idea made by humans (C wut i just did thar?).

Actually, the whole thing was done to stop war, they made it so that both sides were to scared to fight, now may sound like insane plan, but it worked, so maybe the nuke was good thing then?(PS there was lot of backing down as well, if each side didn't back down, then it would have been very hot war)

And if neither side backed down? Boom headshot. Then again, I've always said that "If" is pointless when referring to events that already passed. In our timeline, those ifs never happened... yet.

No holy, like I have said in the past, their isn't any such thing as 100% answer, so this is simply you put down your view and me putting mine, if don't like that, don't post your view:-
=Yes the humans are direct cause, but whether he meant for it or not, he caused the bad in us (who knows he may not even see it as bad, I mean we are talking here as if bad is objective point, which isn't) so he is still the one at center of it
=Ether god did cause us to be like this or he didn't, he cannot actually be god if he keeps taking the side, I made the good, you made the bad.

I never said God made the good or the bad. I said humans made the bad and blamed God for the bad, and humans made the good and thanked God for the good. I said humans made the good and corrupted it with the bad, blaming God. See how that works?

At the minute my life is actually pretty good, but it took 17 years to get there, life is rarely perfect, but unlike lot of poeple, I can accept that, as I know it could be lot worse as well, but that is moot point, as if I was born in say Aferica and raised massively christain, my views probably would be different, however that wouldn't be me anymore anyway, so doesn't matter, this is who I am and this is what I believe right now (as may change, who knows)

You're a rich person. You eat every day, you have fair medical treatments with problems, and most of all, you have access to a computer. You don't need God, so you fight against the idea of a literal God. I'm not making the argument of a literal God. I'm saying that I don't know if he's a physical being or an idea, but regardless of either, he has plenty of power. Infinite power. After all, he represents hope, the greatest feeling of all. Do you think most people who play a lottery expect to win? They don't buy a ticket. They buy hope-- hope that they'll win and their life will be better for it. Hope hands out millions every year. That, my friend, is real power.

=Yes I do believe poeple are smart, sure we can do dumb things, (specially in groups) but I also think we can do great things when set our minds to it (Lloyd Goerge started life in total provety, he ended his life as the most powerful man in Britsh Empire, who can be credited with making the plan which won WW1, and was one of forrunners for the acts which saved man poeple in provety, and he was far from a good Christian)

I don't see why that last part applies to... any of this, really. Not all atheists are bad people. Not all religious people are good. Both good and bad are loosely defined, too, so that doesn't help.

=Holy, you say I refuse to open my mind to idea of god, yet lets face who do you know, who thinks about the idea of god than me, (maybe Ish and sally, but cannot think of many) just I came to conclusion he doesn't exist and if he does, he cannot be what he says he is and so if he lies to get followers rules with apathy, he isn't worthy of my loyality anyway:-(I went to a RC school and one thing I found was that, I knew more about religion, and ideas of god than most of the Christains (mainly catholic) there)
=So maybe being open minded is looking at it deeply and coming to conclusion, if isn't then it is merely having no true view at all, and if it is that, then you holy are in the section with me and just about every other human, which leaves you in position of not being open minded ether (and lets face it, I never said I was open minded, or smart, infact being smart is really hard to judge to me, and I didn't say wanted to be open minded and to be open minded isn't to be smart anyway

=Now holy, why would you say that if there is no god, there is no reason to live, I think lots of reasons to live (infact holy, who was it, who made meaning of life thread and spent 3 pages trying to convince you, there is) I mean even if he does exist, he doesn't really give us a reason to live, unless you believe that a reason which has no actually meaning beyond a dog casing its own tail is reason

=And like said don't need god if surivive this world, you need yourself, if he find the strenght to get up and do something, don't give credit to god, pat yourself on the back for once

=And there is the irony in this, with last part, you say everything about humans is bad (even the good) and so if humans are causes of evil, god caused us to be that way, therefore still his fault
(PS no good and evil isn't set, but that doesn't matter, fact is, we are what we are and if god did make us, he made this way, meaning our actions are his fault and he cannot take that, then he shouldn't have made us in first place)

Xanadu he doesn't get mad, he merely has devine plan ^_-
Let me sum up my response in a few linesm, in no particular order:

God is powerful.

Life is worth living without a real God, but the idea fills people with hope, which is why God is important.

I'm glad you found hope elsewhere.

I hope you don't try to remove hope from people in order to instill your own brand of hope in them.

Why? Because then you'd be me. I hate me. I wouldn't want to hate you, too. Hate is a pointless feeling.

Turtlicious

08-07-2009, 03:43 AM

Gods can be killed. They have flaws. In fact, the serpent in the story of Adam and Eve was a pagan deity, I believe. A benevolent one. Christianity and such changed a benevolent pagan deity into a reference to Satan, the generally most hated being in Christian lore.

Christians are arrogant with their God... to think of something that's absolute perfection. It just sounds like... a dream. Ever heard of the akasha sword?

That's because you have no clue as to their suffering. Don't pretend that you know what you're talking about, because your opinion honestly has no place in my argument. In fact, I already accouted for people like you. You have no need for the idea of a God. The idea of, "Tomorrow will be better than today" is all they want, even if it's false. Hope is very important in adverse conditions with no chance in fighting back.

Or they couldn't rebel because they were starving and AIDS-infected. Ever think of that?

In order to make this argument, it would mean that you believe that God made humans. You use that as a base to disprove something I never said. Think before you speak.

You're proving my point. You're taking the fault off of humans and blaming God. Blame yourself, human. And again, you're using the thought of, "God made humans with these traits" as a base to disprove it. I don't care whether an idea created by humans (Animals don't have souls, after all *Eyeroll*) made the humans or the humans made the idea made by humans (C wut i just did thar?).

And if neither side backed down? Boom headshot. Then again, I've always said that "If" is pointless when referring to events that already passed. In our timeline, those ifs never happened... yet.

I never said God made the good or the bad. I said humans made the bad and blamed God for the bad, and humans made the good and thanked God for the good. I said humans made the good and corrupted it with the bad, blaming God. See how that works?

You're a rich person. You eat every day, you have fair medical treatments with problems, and most of all, you have access to a computer. You don't need God, so you fight against the idea of a literal God. I'm not making the argument of a literal God. I'm saying that I don't know if he's a physical being or an idea, but regardless of either, he has plenty of power. Infinite power. After all, he represents hope, the greatest feeling of all. Do you think most people who play a lottery expect to win? They don't buy a ticket. They buy hope-- hope that they'll win and their life will be better for it. Hope hands out millions every year. That, my friend, is real power.

I don't see why that last part applies to... any of this, really. Not all atheists are bad people. Not all religious people are good. Both good and bad are loosely defined, too, so that doesn't help.

Let me sum up my response in a few linesm, in no particular order:

God is powerful.

Life is worth living without a real God, but the idea fills people with hope, which is why God is important.

I'm glad you found hope elsewhere.

I hope you don't try to remove hope from people in order to instill your own brand of hope in them.

Why? Because then you'd be me. I hate me. I wouldn't want to hate you, too. Hate is a pointless feeling.

*ahem*

PWND

Aninamar

08-07-2009, 05:32 AM

*ahem*

PWND

*looks at it as being Turtlicious' only activity in this discussion*

*facepalms*

WE DON'T REMEMBER ASKING YOU A GOD DAMN THING!

DarthWario

08-07-2009, 05:43 AM

Although i'm a firm believer in all the scientific stuff like evolution, the big bang theory and such, I still believe in some form of a god. Because you don't go through 8 years of christianity without picking up something that niggles in the back of your head.
So, subconsciously I believe in a God that has no true place in the universe and really has no effect on my life in that I can justify talking to myself about the important things when i'm alone.
Hell, not even the christian version of a god. If I believed in the christian version of god, heaven and hell and such I wouldn't still be masturbating would I?

If anything, I just see that my spiritual journey hasn't ended yet and won't for a while. When my philisophical mind finally settles, it'll probably stray away from mainstream religious ideas.

Bakura136

08-10-2009, 02:22 AM

Humans restrict their life in a way they can understand even though thoses restrictions cause them to never obtain the full understanding that is existence. No-one will ever know at all the true point of everything, there is no logical explanation nor should there be. We base these "logical explanations" on many things we accept as what should be and shall be whilst the very dawn of creation was caused by a random bang. How can we trust that what we believe in is meant to be there and not a random occurence such as the big bang or such a random occurenc would happen. This conversation is endless there is no way you could possibly explain anything in this universe.

Bakura136

08-10-2009, 02:27 AM

Fenrir502

08-10-2009, 03:40 AM

Oh and a further note. Evolution and creation do NOT contradict each other. In the bible it said on the 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day etc. Whilst in the evolution theory it said stuff about 10'000 years or something like that. People think that it either took 7 days or 10'000 years. Why not both? A day was created by some stupid man that thought deadlines and dates were brilliant and called a day 24 hours. A day in the bible could mean 10'000 years. For example, on the first day (10'000 years) God said let there be light. On the second day (10'000 years) God said let there be earth etc. The human races' life is corrupted by all sorts of "facts" or "myths" and many other restrictions created by themeselves tha we blind ourselves from the truth and real explanations to the world.

Technically, a day is the name given to how long it takes for a planet to revolve on its axis once, on Earth it just happens to be twenty four hours. So in the regard that it's an invented measurement, you are incorrect. However, in the sense that it means little, you are correct, as it fails to specify a day on which planet so on and so forth.

grimfang999

08-10-2009, 05:00 AM

Oh and a further note. Evolution and creation do NOT contradict each other. In the bible it said on the 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day etc. Whilst in the evolution theory it said stuff about 10'000 years or something like that. People think that it either took 7 days or 10'000 years. Why not both? A day was created by some stupid man that thought deadlines and dates were brilliant and called a day 24 hours. A day in the bible could mean 10'000 years. For example, on the first day (10'000 years) God said let there be light. On the second day (10'000 years) God said let there be earth etc. The human races' life is corrupted by all sorts of "facts" or "myths" and many other restrictions created by themeselves tha we blind ourselves from the truth and real explanations to the world.

finally some who has reached the same conclusion as me!!!!

although seeing as the universe is 13.5-14 billion years old, thats 2 billion years in one of Gods days

of course, these are indefinate, seeing as we dont truely know how old the universe and earth are.

Jansson

08-10-2009, 05:09 AM

If there is a god and we were created in his image, why does murder and rape exist?

Gimme a reasonable answer to that and I'll convert to whatever religion you want me to!

grimfang999

08-10-2009, 05:48 AM

murder and rape are natural processes but formed into evil and unlawful attacks

murder is taking advantage of how when people run out of air or blood or whatever kills them. its taking the natural process originally planned out for the sake of keeping the populations down and to allow food for predators. the only thing is when God gave us free will we are slowly losing our sense of community and started killing each other for no apparent reason, whereas in the wild or tribes an animal or person would not dream of harming another of their race unless for a good reason, such as being invaded. however, then it wouldn't be called murder, it would be called either justice or wars.

rape is people taking advantage of free will too far, giving in to desires which should be controled in society. because we are sentient we should be allowed to be consented to sex. if only one side is, then it is wrong because the other is forced. even in nature, man is one of the few races which seek lifetime mates. if another was to do anything to another ones mate, they would be punished severely

Aninamar

08-10-2009, 07:45 AM

finally some who has reached the same conclusion as me!!!!
Why yes, I see now the glow of your intelligence. Because surely nobody has thought up the same idea before you. Have a cookie.
If there is a god and we were created in his image, why does murder and rape exist?
God doesn't exactly frown upon those things. After all, he murdered Onan. And when the Sodomites wanted to rape the angels, Lot thought it would be justified in his faith if he gave the Sodomites his daughters to rape instead. So you're going a little too far.

Fat1Fared

08-10-2009, 01:03 PM

finally some who has reached the same conclusion as me!!!!

although seeing as the universe is 13.5-14 billion years old, thats 2 billion years in one of Gods days

of course, these are indefinate, seeing as we dont truely know how old the universe and earth are.

Tech universe doesn't have static age, because as far as they can tell, it is still growing and further out are, newer it is (anyway)

Bakura, you see I know what your saying, but I "personally" think that, your giving answer to wrong question, I think personally, question need to ask is, does it really need god? (some would say yes, others like me, would say no, but that is actual question, I would look at (almost everyone can agree that god can be included in it, because God is very vade thing and meant to be Mr SuperMan (joke))

Anyway whether is actually needed or nature can handle itself is something far harder to question,
=Most Religious Poeple here bring in an agurment of, well its too perfect/hard/lucky, not to have maker, well if we ignore the fact, that if so unlikely to have not have creator, then what was able to make something that is able to make earth, (as if nature cannot make earth, surely god is even less likely to appear, but many religous poeple then bring up point of eturnity/god, so pointless route in end)
=So as just gone through that point, must then look at something else, Proability:- When look how big the universe is and how many millions of planets we know of (let alone ones don't) the chance isn't that small in truth. As though if we ONLY had 1 planet, which was alone in universe and it still just happened to work, then I would, yes it is amazing, but we have millions (maybe even billions) of them and so the chances are now actually, saying that it is unlikely to not have any planet appear which works, as did it so times
=:-look at it like roling a loaded dice, very unlikely to get a 6, however will get it, if role it enough times)

-Finally remember lot of other planets hold life, it is just very hardcore life

Aninamar

09-03-2009, 02:45 PM

YO DAWG

SO I HERD U LIKE DEBATES

SO WE PUT AN ARGUMENT INTO UR ARGUMENT SO YOU CAN RETORT WHILE U RETORT

Remember one thing: "If there was no evil in the world, nobody would appreciate good."

Insane

09-03-2009, 04:32 PM

If there is a god and we were created in his image, why does murder and rape exist?

Gimme a reasonable answer to that and I'll convert to whatever religion you want me to!
Because God gave the people of his creation free will to do as they wish.

Some people betrayed this freedom, and so, rape.

Insane

09-03-2009, 04:32 PM

Fat1Fared

09-03-2009, 04:57 PM

Because God gave the people of his creation free will to do as they wish.

Some people betrayed this freedom, and so, rape.

But rape isn't actually decided by free will alone, it is mostly controlled by natural desirer and most rapists hate themselves and have over whelming need to feel strong (most rape isn't even about sex, it is about making someone feel weak to make self stronger) and though easy to say, they can just choose not to rape, you can also choose not to eat tectonically, however every few poeple could actually do that, and this desirer is actually on fundermental level same kind of thing, so therefore isn't just about free will, it is about natural desirer and if it is natural, then it came with us, meaning god placed it in their from start, so to just past it off as man's free will is wrong, therefore naturally god must in some way approve of Rape (and even if we have choice, god made us with the idea of rape, therefore still comes from god)

The simple answers churches give us are never right because simple don't look at it indepth enough, now if is god, there maybe a actually be a reason that he gave us rape and even one which seems logical to point acceptabilily :confused: , but I can say I believe passing it off as merely free will being abused is wrong, as far too simple

-As for Bakura's point, answered that above, so no point going there again

Ishikawa Oshro

09-03-2009, 06:11 PM

The idea church gives is the fact that when god created us we had free will. The point is you cant argue with it. You could call it a cop out for an answer. You could question "why diddent god just destroy the devil". But even then. The churches answer to that is God said he died in the creation of the world. Meaning he knew what would happen and he has a plan for it.
The only question is why would god threaten to destroy those who opposed him in the eternal fires of hell? Why not stop the devil to begin with and have all humans live in harmony?????

But the answer to free will cannot be refuted. Only called a cop out

Fat1Fared

09-03-2009, 06:36 PM

edit

The idea church gives is the fact that when god created us we had free will. The point is you cant argue with it. You could call it a cop out for an answer. You could question "why diddent god just destroy the devil". But even then. The churches answer to that is God said he died in the creation of the world. Meaning he knew what would happen and he has a plan for it.
The only question is why would god threaten to destroy those who opposed him in the eternal fires of hell? Why not stop the devil to begin with and have all humans live in harmony?????

But the answer to free will cannot be refuted. Only called a cop out

free will as an complete force can be very easily refuted (and god giving us free will, 1 how do we know have free will and not just lie (just because being controlled doesn't mean know it) 2 Even if like me you don't believe mythical version of fate, doesn't mean we have free will (aspeically complete free will) as too many things which control our actions from natural deviser, to society to very simple fact we are sometimes controlled. But the main thing is, though for arguments sake, lets say we have pure choice and that god or anything else doesn't forcally effect our actions, even then free will isn't pure free will, because god created existence and the rules of existence IE Death (not many poeple choice to die, we just do) and so it is within these rules we can make a choice, however don't think that is it, because not only are some rules we have no choice in, there are rules that don't even exist as god decided not to make them, with these things which god could have made but didn't we again never get choice in it, so god forced that choice apon us. Ie what if Feererf existed, don't ask me what it is, it doesn't exist, but if it did exist we could interact with Feererf, however because god decided not to make feererf, we never got that choice, because god made it for us, so even here the idea of god and free conflict with one another, as though we maybe able to make choices of how to live within these rules, boundaries and items of existence we didn't get a choice on what those rules, boundaries and items are and we will never have a choice to go beyond those rules, boundaries and items of existence. Confused?
=Well Look at it like this, when someone places a mouse in a maze, the mouse maybe able to choose where to go within that maze, but didn't get a choice on if:-
1=even wanted to be there
2=how mazed looked and was built
3=how maze works and the natural rules, boundaries and items within it
4=if it can ever go beyond the boundaries and restrictions placed on it by the Maze

We humans are those mice, and existence is our maze which robs us of Free Will

Also god didn't make us with free will, the devil said no one would follow god without being forced, so god gave us free will to prove we would. And infact if look at it that way, if do have free will, then free will is nothing more than god trying to prove a point, which in itself is stupid because if god is to be believed, he is ultimate truth and shouldn't need to vindicate, adjudicate or justify himself to anyone, because what he believes is right, is right, which means if he shouldn't need to do that to prove a point, because point should already be proven. Put simply, If he makes everything, he makes truth, so why does he need to prove a point to anyone.

As for other questions well to me they never happened, but if they did, then they need better answers, however problem is then get old god works in mysterious ways. Well probably does doesn't make them right though or mean don't need answering. Finally I think better question is, if god is god...etc why did the devil and other angels need to challenge him (and cannot just be devil is meanless evil, as one god made him like that, two, the devil is far to complicated to be so easily passed off)
=Also why do WE need anything like what and though god is simple way of giving meaning to human life, if is god, if look at him in many ways his meaning is self contradicting one and removes any other small meaning we can find, as everything is already set in his place.

Finally the debate of whether we have free will or not wasn't my point, my point is that to mindlessly blame humans having free will, (and devil) for everything bad is A COP out as you said two far to simple and I think offensively degrading, to say that questions which need real answers are so cauliosly pasted aside with COP out answers and looked on apon as nothing more childish inconvenience which needs to be ignored is almost bad as answer given.
=Infact if I was to guess, I would say more logical reason we have things which can be seen as bad or evil, is because if everything is good and wasn't anything bad in existence there would be no need for god or heaven anyway,

Ishikawa Oshro

09-09-2009, 04:21 PM

free will as an complete force can be very easily refuted (and god giving us free will, 1 how do we know have free will and not just lie (just because being controlled doesn't mean know it) 2 Even if like me you don't believe mythical version of fate, doesn't mean we have free will (aspeically complete free will) as too many things which control our actions from natural deviser, to society to very simple fact we are sometimes controlled. But the main thing is, though for arguments sake, lets say we have pure choice and that god or anything else doesn't forcally effect our actions, even then free will isn't pure free will, because god created existence and the rules of existence IE Death (not many poeple choice to die, we just do) and so it is within these rules we can make a choice, however don't think that is it, because not only are some rules we have no choice in, there are rules that don't even exist as god decided not to make them, with these things which god could have made but didn't we again never get choice in it, so god forced that choice apon us. Ie what if Feererf existed, don't ask me what it is, it doesn't exist, but if it did exist we could interact with Feererf, however because god decided not to make feererf, we never got that choice, because god made it for us, so even here the idea of god and free conflict with one another, as though we maybe able to make choices of how to live within these rules, boundaries and items of existence we didn't get a choice on what those rules, boundaries and items are and we will never have a choice to go beyond those rules, boundaries and items of existence. Confused?
=Well Look at it like this, when someone places a mouse in a maze, the mouse maybe able to choose where to go within that maze, but didn't get a choice on if:-
1=even wanted to be there
2=how mazed looked and was built
3=how maze works and the natural rules, boundaries and items within it
4=if it can ever go beyond the boundaries and restrictions placed on it by the Maze

We humans are those mice, and existence is our maze which robs us of Free Will

Lolz. Free will is still in our hands. i dont know many who complain about being born. And yes there are those who do and say they wish they were never born but in reality they are only lies. I dont know anyone who is happy to accept death willingly. Those who commit suicide cant just do it on a whim. They have to work themselves up to it because detah is scary. You dont know whats beyond. So that cant really be argues because the fact of the matter is humans lie.

There are those who complain abouit being in a horrible time in our lives. Those are the ones I hate the most. Its not your circumstances that define you its you who defines them. You do nothing or you can try and do something. Not some half done crap either. I mean if your family is poor. you can complain you were born into poverty. Or you can become like so many others and make something of yourself.

I dont see why anyone complains about life. Life is a gift. Embrace it and live on.

Also god didn't make us with free will, the devil said no one would follow god without being forced, so god gave us free will to prove we would. And infact if look at it that way, if do have free will, then free will is nothing more than god trying to prove a point, which in itself is stupid because if god is to be believed, he is ultimate truth and shouldn't need to vindicate, adjudicate or justify himself to anyone, because what he believes is right, is right, which means if he shouldn't need to do that to prove a point, because point should already be proven. Put simply, If he makes everything, he makes truth, so why does he need to prove a point to anyone.

I dont know who told you that one hahaa. According to the christians god created humans for the sole purpose of living in harmony with him and acknodledging him for creating them with their own free will unlike the angels who dont have an option. The devil was banished and it would be retarded for God to try to prove himself. HES GOD. That story already dosent make any sense. Whoever told you it put them on a flaming cross.

As for other questions well to me they never happened, but if they did, then they need better answers, however problem is then get old god works in mysterious ways. Well probably does doesn't make them right though or mean don't need answering. Finally I think better question is, if god is god...etc why did the devil and other angels need to challenge him (and cannot just be devil is meanless evil, as one god made him like that, two, the devil is far to complicated to be so easily passed off)
=Also why do WE need anything like what and though god is simple way of giving meaning to human life, if is god, if look at him in many ways his meaning is self contradicting one and removes any other small meaning we can find, as everything is already set in his place.

Not really sure what you were trying to say but imma disect it. STOP GETTING DRUNK FARED XP!!!! devil was a beautifull angel and had the best vocals among his class of angels. God complimented him often on these things admiring what he had created. The devil got bigheaded and thought he deserved praise too. So he got some angels to praise him and god banished all of them for their insolence.

Finally the debate of whether we have free will or not wasn't my point, my point is that to mindlessly blame humans having free will, (and devil) for everything bad is A COP out as you said two far to simple and I think offensively degrading, to say that questions which need real answers are so cauliosly pasted aside with COP out answers and looked on apon as nothing more childish inconvenience which needs to be ignored is almost bad as answer given.
=Infact if I was to guess, I would say more logical reason we have things which can be seen as bad or evil, is because if everything is good and wasn't anything bad in existence there would be no need for god or heaven anyway,

I believe christiand biggest points come in these questions.
1) if angels were given no free will how was the devil able to disobey his programming?
2) Why does God create things to praise him? Makes him seem like a king dosent it?
3) Why does God choose???? He choose the jews as his people why??? He could have blessed any other people but yet he choose the jews. Meaning God actually discluded those other nations. Therefore meaning God actually choose the people he would destroy if what christians are to say is right.

Theres lots more questions and things that christians dont offer answers to. Those are the questions I wish to see answrered. And seek.

And yea. they are cop outs. The devil is not your "get out of life freee" excuse.
Humans make mistakes. Get over it.

grimfang999

09-09-2009, 04:35 PM

thank ishi. i have come accross some interesting information in a book called the puzzle of evil, and i shall say some of the reasoning from there tomorrow, i dont have much time left on the computer

Fat1Fared

09-09-2009, 05:52 PM

thank ishi. i have come accross some interesting information in a book called the puzzle of evil, and i shall say some of the reasoning from there tomorrow, i dont have much time left on the computer

Grim before you praise someone, actually make sure you read what both sides have put, as if you did look at the points being made you would see that Ish has once again not actually put anything to do with what I put, he has merely tried to give me questions which seem to be similar to point at hand, but in fact have nothing to do with my points or advancing our trian of thought. This will then force the conversation away from points he doesn't wish to answer, as I will now show. I'm not angry at Ish for this, as it is something most humans do when faced with a position, where cannot make answer want too, but refuse to admit this fact, in fact I have probably done it in past without even realising it

Lolz. Free will is still in our hands. i dont know many who complain about being born. And yes there are those who do and say they wish they were never born but in reality they are only lies. I dont know anyone who is happy to accept death willingly. Those who commit suicide cant just do it on a whim. They have to work themselves up to it because detah is scary. You dont know whats beyond. So that cant really be argues because the fact of the matter is humans lie.

Part 1

Point 1=Yes there those who complain about being born and no you don't know they are lieing, they truly may not wish to have ever existed, you don't know all these poeple and even if did, you cannot make that judgment
Point 2=This actually has nothing to do with what I was sayying, my point is not actually about if we all wish to exist or not, it is about the fact we have no CHOICE in the matter, whether we agree with choose or not

Point 3=Again, you don't know all these poeple and even if did your not in a position to make such judgments on them
Point 4=Whether wish to or not, death is something which again is largly out of our control, so again proves pure free will wrong

Point 5=Now if follow this to its conclusion rather than agure over pointless side points which have no effect on this at all, it proves that there is many pit-falls and conflictions in some religious teaching about god and his control on us,

Point 6=Your right we don't know what great beyond is and this again proves my point, we go where god wants, not where our will takes us

Point 7=You have clearly ignored the complete second half of the point, to do with control through structure of reality and existence, through its bindings of feasibility and viability. Whether this is because you didn't understand it or didn't want to accept it, is something I cannot say.

There are those who complain abouit being in a horrible time in our lives. Those are the ones I hate the most. Its not your circumstances that define you its you who defines them. You do nothing or you can try and do something. Not some half done crap either. I mean if your family is poor. you can complain you were born into poverty. Or you can become like so many others and make something of yourself.

Part 2

Point 1=I agree personally that you shouldn't mindlessly complain about your life, but I must ask what you point does this make to this conversation on FREE WILL?

Point 2=Actually I would say that like most things, it is a mix of the 2 contasting points with your circumstance defining you and you defining it at same time. But unless you are trying to make a point that you have complete control over your own circumstances (Which is 80% wrong and part of what removes pure free will) again this is pointless thing to add to this converisation, as it effects this in no way other than to move away from points being made.

Point 3=It is wrong because though you can try to do many things (not anything,) it doesn't mean you will actually do it, as other humans wills may conflict yours (again removing pure free will) and so act to stop you and though it makes nice movies, to do somthing like break free of poverty is actually almost an impossible thing. Whether because you learn to be poor in the spiral of depression through negative soicalsation or simply because no matter what you do, you cannot get the break needed, IE may not be able to afford to go to uni. Maybe disabled meaning cannot do many jobs. Maybe...etc So again don't be so judgmental on these poeple and again this actually proves free will isn't pure and so goes onto help my side.

I dont see why anyone complains about life. Life is a gift. Embrace it and live on.

Point 4=One of those lovely religious quotes with no deeper thought or substance to it and that has no actual relevence to anything we are on about

I dont know who told you that one hahaa. According to the christians god created humans for the sole purpose of living in harmony with him and acknodledging him for creating them with their own free will unlike the angels who dont have an option. The devil was banished and it would be retarded for God to try to prove himself. HES GOD. That story already dosent make any sense. Whoever told you it put them on a flaming cross.

Again, your not actually answering my point, your just putting meaningless extrs's.

In fact you try to answer my question by asking it back to me

PS also it is one of accepted views on why we where given free will (the one I was tort in Roman Cathiolic School)

another thing to sometimes fail to remember ish is that religion itself hardly agree's on all stories, so just because you were tort a different story to rest, doesn't make it right or wrong, however we are getting off track again

Not really sure what you were trying to say but imma disect it. STOP GETTING DRUNK FARED XP!!!! devil was a beautifull angel and had the best vocals among his class of angels. God complimented him often on these things admiring what he had created. The devil got bigheaded and thought he deserved praise too. So he got some angels to praise him and god banished all of them for their insolence.

Part 3

Point 1=Again another story, which doesn't really move us along,

Point 2=Of course you don't understand, your life is centred around that meaning, which means you will never accept that there is a failing to it, not an an insult to you, just way humans [B]can act to such things

Point 3=Though you make this point yourself later on, that doesn't actually makes sense for number of reasons

Point 4=It still doesn't actually ask why he needed to do what he did, if god is what he is and how god let it happen

Point 5=It also shows god isn't what he is meant to be (divinie and Omnipotent (though that is impossib anyway)) and far from great guy made out to be (however this one is me going off target little bit, so make sure you know this is a side point

I believe christiand biggest points come in these questions.
1) if angels were given no free will how was the devil able to disobey his programming?
2) Why does God create things to praise him? Makes him seem like a king dosent it?
3) Why does God choose???? He choose the jews as his people why??? He could have blessed any other people but yet he choose the jews. Meaning God actually discluded those other nations. Therefore meaning God actually choose the people he would destroy if what christians are to say is right.

Theres lots more questions and things that christians dont offer answers to. Those are the questions I wish to see answrered. And seek.

Indeed, those maybe your questions, but what do they have to do with my questions, or the point I was making, other than prove you yourself realise their is flaws in your religion and the way it looks at how god is meant to effect us:-

And yea. they are cop outs. The devil is not your "get out of life freee" excuse.
Humans make mistakes. Get over it.

Part 4

This is the comment, which made my comments seem so angry, if you had bothered to read what I put, you would see I said the complete oppsite to this and so please Ish reread what I put and try to understand my comments and questions, rather than making pedantic points and asking side questions which have no effective link to anything we are on about

(=Now, if want to see my indepth points on humans and there actions, they are here, further back in this thread)

Black Mage

09-09-2009, 05:59 PM

Not too bad, Fat1Fare... although you seem a bit to focused on disproving the point rather than putting a much more understandable reason in its place.... but Im just glad to hear someone that doesnt through slang and insults out randomly. : )
Edit: Sorry, for a sec I thought This was the topic I started.

Ishikawa Oshro

09-09-2009, 06:36 PM

Part 1

Point 1=Yes there those who complain about being born and no you don't know they are lieing, they truly may not wish to have ever existed, you don't know all these poeple and even if did, you cannot make that judgment
Point 2=This actually has nothing to do with what I was sayying, my point is not actually about if we all wish to exist or not, it is about the fact we have no CHOICE in the matter, whether we agree with choose or not

show me someone who dosent scream for endless minutes working up there blood screaming "ILL DO IT" or contemplating the thought. EVERYONE values life to some extent. Emotions are the main reason they commit suicide. No sane person would kill themself. END.
And everyone enjoys certain days in their lives. Though they dont want to admit that there are days that WILL go wrong. Its inevitble. Emotions rise thus clouding reasonable though. Thus leading to misguided choices and decisions.

Point 4=Whether wish to or not, death is something which again is largly out of our control, so again proves pure free will wrong

O.O lolz. death is a part of life. GOD or not. Its in us. and youd have to understand from the christian view point it wasent gods intent for us to die. That was a punishment. So we got a priveladge if you would taken away from us.

Point 5=Now if follow this to its conclusion rather than agure over pointless side points which have no effect on this at all, it proves that there is many pit-falls and conflictions in some religious teaching about god and his control on us,

Agreed!!

Point 6=Your right we don't know what great beyond is and this again proves my point, we go where god wants, not where our will takes us

Now you taking it out of proportion. Our free will is defined the same as freedom. Freedom dosent exist without rules and regulations. Same as free will. Or else wed have chaos. Rules regulate this. Its something that is rather hard to argue for or against because if you argue f the rules then your for chaos which defeats the purpose god placed. If you argue for then people who dont understand the concept of regulations (IE protecting your rights) will argue thats total bull. freedom and free will must be regulated. Your free will exists in your boundary. In your dimension.

Point 7=You have clearly ignored the complete second half of the point, to do with control through structure of reality and existence, through its bindings of feasibility and viability. Whether this is because you didn't understand it or didn't want to accept it, is something I cannot say.

I diddent try to ignore it. I wasent sure what you were trying to say =/

Point 1=I agree personally that you shouldn't mindlessly complain about your life, but I must ask what you point does this make to this conversation on FREE WILL?

Point 2=Actually I would say that like most things, it is a mix of the 2 contasting points with your circumstance defining you and you defining it at same time. But unless you are trying to make a point that you have complete control over your own circumstances (Which is 80% wrong and part of what removes pure free will) again this is pointless thing to add to this converisation, as it effects this in no way other than to move away from points being made.

It goes perfectly though. Those who gripe about their horrible lives have te will to do something about them. They may have been born into bad circumstances but thats nit within their will to do anything about it. From there after they begin to define what happens to them. There are poor people who dont gripe and make the best of what theyve been born into. They make their circumstances into experiences that do amazing things.

Point 3=It is wrong because though you can try to do many things (not anything,) it doesn't mean you will actually do it, as other humans wills may conflict yours (again removing pure free will) and so act to stop you and though it makes nice movies, to do somthing like break free of poverty is actually almost an impossible thing. Whether because you learn to be poor in the spiral of depression through negative soicalsation or simply because no matter what you do, you cannot get the break needed, IE may not be able to afford to go to uni. Maybe disabled meaning cannot do many jobs. Maybe...etc So again don't be so judgmental on these poeple and again this actually proves free will isn't pure and so goes onto help my side.

Free will within your boundaries. You cant compare a prince and a fool and begin to say the freedoms they SHOULD have. Our world dosent give us that luxary. Though the fool can use what he has to do something about his situation. Life isent about being the richest. I dont know if your arguing a fantasy world but were talking realistic here. Im quite sure God figured this is the path humans would take., Thus free will within your boundaies. A city chum isent going to have the privelage of firing a nuke unless he becomes the presz or somehow builds one. Other than that its out of his league.

Again, your not actually answering my point, your just putting meaningless extrs's.

In fact you try to answer my question by asking it back to me [Bolded]

PS also it is one of accepted views on why we where given free will (the one I was tort in Roman Cathiolic School)

[ another thing to sometimes fail to remember ish is that religion itself hardly agree's on all stories, so just because you were tort a different story to rest, doesn't make it right or wrong, however we are getting off track again ]

Your running around now. im 75% positive hahah that you were speaking about christianity. which all i did was correct you. Nothing more nothing less. You had a misconception about christianity and i corrected it. Theres nothing to argue refute or say any more here. Its in the book.

Point 1=Again another story, which doesn't really move us along,

Point 2=Of course you don't understand, your life is centred around that meaning, which means you will never accept that there is a failing to it, not an an insult to you, just way humans can act to such things

Point 3=Though you make this point yourself later on, that doesn't actually makes sense for number of reasons

Point 4=It still doesn't actually ask why he needed to do what he did, if god is what he is and how god let it happen

The story was a correction of your previous misconception. All I did was give you the correct story of the devils betrayel and fall of the angels.

Lolz you have no idea how far off point 2 is. My life isetn centered around it. I leave the whole god thing as a major possibility. My role in the church is only to seek answers seeing as their god is the only one who really has a huge chance of being a REAL deity in my eyes. Off topic though.

Indeed, those maybe your questions, but what do they have to do with my questions, or the point I was making:-

just for lolz >.<!!!!

Part 4

This is the comment, which made my comments seem so angry, if you had bothered to read what I put, you would see I said the complete oppsite to this and so please Ish reread what I put and try to understand my comments and questions, rather than making pedantic points and asking side questions which have no effective link to anything we are on about

my point is that to mindlessly blame humans having free will, (and devil) for everything bad is A COP out as you said two far to simple and I think offensively degrading, to say that questions which need real answers are so cauliosly pasted aside with COP out answers and looked on apon as nothing more childish inconvenience which needs to be ignored is almost bad as answer given.

No offensive but according to what you typed thats exactly what you were saying. Your dyslexia may have caused you to forget a crucial word or two. re-read it again and youll see -_-

And i havent run around anything. All i have done is answer your questions and add some more of my own input into them.

Fat1Fared

09-09-2009, 07:34 PM

show me someone who dosent scream for endless minutes working up there blood screaming "ILL DO IT" or contemplating the thought. EVERYONE values life to some extent. Emotions are the main reason they commit suicide. No sane person would kill themself. END.

Oh what I lovely childish and pointless point, fact remains this is moot and even if isn't, you don't this, you just think know it (This is your opinion on these poeple Ish)

And everyone enjoys certain days in their lives. Though they dont want to admit that there are days that WILL go wrong. Its inevitble. Emotions rise thus clouding reasonable though. Thus leading to misguided choices and decisions.

I understood what said first time, but again must ask, what are you proving here, this has nothing to do with topic at hand

O.O lolz. death is a part of life. GOD or not. Its in us. and youd have to understand from the christian view point it wasent gods intent for us to die. That was a punishment. So we got a priveladge if you would taken away from us.

So, if it is punishment, well then we didn't choose it, Free will is removed, point PROVEN

If isn't, still something have little choice over, no free will Point PROVEN

Agreed!!

Indeed

Now you taking it out of proportion. Our free will is defined the same as freedom. Freedom dosent exist without rules and regulations. Same as free will. Or else wed have chaos. Rules regulate this. Its something that is rather hard to argue for or against because if you argue f the rules then your for chaos which defeats the purpose god placed. If you argue for then people who dont understand the concept of regulations (IE protecting your rights) will argue thats total bull. freedom and free will must be regulated. Your free will exists in your boundary. In your dimension.

Well this is actually a fair point about free will, however it doesn't remove the fact that god was one who set down those regulations and we have no free will in what are.

I diddent try to ignore it. I wasent sure what you were trying to say =/

Well if don't understand it now, no offense when say this, you probably won't ever understand it, kind of removing any point to this conversation.

It goes perfectly though. Those who gripe about their horrible lives have te will to do something about them. They may have been born into bad circumstances but thats nit within their will to do anything about it. From there after they begin to define what happens to them. There are poor people who dont gripe and make the best of what theyve been born into. They make their circumstances into experiences that do amazing things.

Again, I understand what you said (though disagree with it, but that is going to far off topic to for me to be brothered to go into) but it is still moot point unless you accept that you don't have free will in these things and this means I'm right

Free will within your boundaries. You cant compare a prince and a fool and begin to say the freedoms they SHOULD have. Our world dosent give us that luxary. Though the fool can use what he has to do something about his situation.

So then we need to change thousands of years of religious teaching to make sure it is right lol (PS yes you can compare prince and fool, because prince can be a fool, and I think this shows everything which is wrong with your view on world. You think everything is so simple and set. And that it is all black and white, where we can have this control don't because to have it removes reactionable effects in life and also removes makes it that have chocies don;t)

Life isent about being the richest. I dont know if your arguing a fantasy world but were talking realistic here. Im quite sure God figured this is the path humans would take., Thus free will within your boundaies. A city chum isent going to have the privelage of firing a nuke unless he becomes the presz or somehow builds one. Other than that its out of his league.

1=You are one defending something that you know cannot prove exists and so maybe you shouldn't talk to me about fantasy, aspecially as your one with judgmental view on poeple and their siturations, which far to simple to real (not meant to be offensive, but just a bit of very high pot to kettle moment)

2=Also you are now actually starting to agree with me, though we have choice, existence and situration remove free will and this means that free will isn't pure real thing:-
=Not saying no choice at all or that all about fate, as that too is too simple and to me wrong, but free will isn't answer ether.

Your running around now. im 75% positive hahah that you were speaking about christianity. which all i did was correct you. Nothing more nothing less. You had a misconception about christianity and i corrected it. Theres nothing to argue refute or say any more here. Its in the book.

The story was a correction of your previous misconception. All I did was give you the correct story of the devils betrayel and fall of the angels.

I'm not even going to bother going into this, as you have 100% belief in your views of religion, (forgeting that religion itself doesn't agree on all these points and stories.) that I cannot make any impact apon and it is actually still going off point, so we will leave this as one now.

No offensive but according to what you typed thats exactly what you were saying. Your dyslexia may have caused you to forget a crucial word or two. re-read it again and youll see -_-

And i havent run around anything. All i have done is answer your questions and add some more of my own input into them.

(and cannot just be devil is meanless evil (or behind all evil), as one god made him like that, two, the devil is far to complicated to be so easily passed off)

AND

Finally the debate of whether we have free will or not wasn't my point, my point is that to mindlessly blame humans having free will, (and devil) for everything bad is A COP out

AND

PS if read up on the devil, may find lot of misunderstanding about him, and the idea of the ulgy horned guy, who gets blamed for all evil,

I think these show, I was never blaming the devil or saying even that have no choice in life (which why said pure free will). But I was merely saying that to blame free will for all problems in world (as COP out to not blame god for anything) is just as stupid:- (because free will can be refuted and because god made us way we are)
=Also before blame my spelling, it offense, not offensive ^_-

Lolz you have no idea how far off point 2 is. My life isetn centered around it. I leave the whole god thing as a major possibility. My role in the church is only to seek answers seeing as their god is the only one who really has a huge chance of being a REAL deity in my eyes. Off topic though.

Actually, I will admit that was my mistake, I did actually miss a word, it was actually meant to say that you set your deeper and spiritual meanings of life around that meaning, so will not accept that has failings to it, (aspeically when told to you over internet)

Ishikawa Oshro

09-09-2009, 08:06 PM

Oh what I lovely childish and pointless point, fact remains this is moot and even if isn't, you don't this, you just think know it (This is your opinion on these poeple Ish)

The common link among people who kill themselves is the belief that suicide is the only solution to a set of overwhelming feelings. The attraction of suicide is that it will finally end these unbearable feelings. The tragedy of suicide is that intense emotional distress often blinds people to alternative solutions . . . yet other solutions are almost always available.
http://www.toddlertime.com/mh/general/suicide.htm

just because you implement a couple 3 syllable words dosent mean your proving your point fared. Suicide isent a logical thought. Its mainly caused from stress and pent up emotions. Not my thoughts. Its science.

I understood what said first time, but again must ask, what are you proving here, this has nothing to do with topic at hand

Im continuing to prove the point that you began about 4 posts ago about people complaining about life. If you diddent want to be born then just take your own life. Simple as that. Yet no one wants to do it. Quit your complaining then is all i have to say to them. Suicide isent rational. That was my point.

So, if it is punishment, well then we didn't choose it, Free will is removed, point PROVEN

If isn't, still something have little choice over, no free will Point PROVEN

We are paying the price that our ancestors made according to the bible. Not sure if I agree with it. All im doing is just stating facts. Not opinions. The bible states something about generational curses. Things that stay with every generation born. Theres nothing to argue here. im not even stating an opnion.

Well this is actually a fair point about free will, however it doesn't remove the fact that god was one who set down those regulations and we have no free will in what are.

Agreed

So then we need to change thousands of years of religious teaching to make sure it is right lol (PS yes you can compare prince and fool, because prince can be a fool, and I think this shows everything which is wrong with your view on world, you think everything is so simple and set. And it is black and white to you and that we can have this control/no reaction effects of life)

Religious teachings teach this. free will and freedom is regulated. Anyone who says otherwise is blind. If you can get penalized for something then a right has been taken away. Church binds people with rules taking away more freedoms. The church teaches that by giving up some of your freedoms life will be more enjoyable. Not what I teach its what they teach.
The fool prince comparison wasent in the logical sense but the social class sence. A prince has more libertys and freedoms than a mere fool aka the jester. prince can rule the castle by bloodline meanwhile the fool will USUALLY have to work there way to that.

1=You are one defending something that you know cannot prove exists and so maybe you shouldn't talk to me about fantasy, aspecially as your one with judgmental view on poeple and their siturations, which far to simple to real

2=Also you are now actually starting to agree with me, though we have choice, existence and situration remove free will and this means that free will isn't pure real thing

Actually as ive stated there still is proof that GOD exists but thats not for this forum. you explain miracles to me. Thats the main thing keeping me in church.

And I never said I was ever disagreeing with you. I only sought to correct and further elaborate on some of what you said. We all understand or to some aspect understand true freedom dosent exist. Or else wed be a lawless people. wed be nothing more than the animals we see outside. But thats a whole other topic on its own. I believe weve run through the free shin dig before.

I'm not even going to bother going into this, as you have 100% belief in your views of religion, (forgeting that religion itself doesn't agree on how points and stories within it.) that I cannot make any impact apon and it is actually still going off point.

its not that i have 100% belief in them. Its just there. you can argue the story the cat in the hat saying the cat was a dog. the author has it stated that its a cat therefore its a cat. Theres nothing more to say about it other than parodies which in themselves are fake.

(and cannot just be devil is meanless evil (or behind all evil), as one god made him like that, two, the devil is far to complicated to be so easily passed off)

AND

Finally the debate of whether we have free will or not wasn't my point, my point is that to mindlessly blame humans having free will, (and devil) for everything bad is A COP out

AND

PS if read up on the devil, may find lot of misunderstanding about him, and the idea of the ulgy horned guy, who gets blamed for all evil,

I think these show, I was never blaming the devil, I was merely saying that to blame free will for all problems in world (as COP out to not blame god for anything) is just as stupid:- (because free will can be refuted and because god made us way we are)
=Also before blame my spelling, it offense, not offensive ^_-

hmmmm. nothing more to add.

PegasusJCrawford

09-09-2009, 10:10 PM

I don't know why...i just CANNOT wrap my head around that there is a greater being up somewhere controlling everything. It just seems soooo unrealistic, I'm suposed to be Catholic but I can't call myself that anymore when I don't know how to believe in something that is faith based. It may sound ignorant, but need proof, I can't just have someone tell me to believe in something and not tell me why. I don't want to bash religion, I'm not that kind of person. I think its great that people have morals and that they have something to believe in, if it weren't for Christianity the world would be in a hell hole (it also causes a lot of problems but the pros weigh out the cons).

Maybe there is proof, maybe someone here can tell me if there is. (That wasn't supposed to be a smart-ass, sarcastic comment, I'm being very serious. If anyone has some sort of proof that God exists I'm very intrigued to know.)

HolyShadow

09-09-2009, 10:19 PM

Who needs proof?

It seems that believing in illogical things is very hard to do; the ultimate test, imo.

So to put it simply... if you can't believe without proof, you're not quite weak, but not close to being strong, either.

Aninamar

09-10-2009, 06:16 AM

F*ck you all.
I worship Joe Pesci, because he's a really nice guy.

Underling

09-10-2009, 06:21 AM

It seems that believing in illogical things is very hard to do; the ultimate test, imo.

It's called stupidity.

Fat1Fared

09-10-2009, 10:40 AM

http://www.toddlertime.com/mh/general/suicide.htm

just because you implement a couple 3 syllable words dosent mean your proving your point fared. Suicide isent a logical thought. Its mainly caused from stress and pent up emotions. Not my thoughts. Its science.

So you saying they may actually really wish to kill themselves and are not actually lying about it (lying being your words not mine,) which means I'm right there. But whether I'm right or your wrong ^_-, this is still a moot point, like I keep saying it doesn't matter if you agree with a choice which is forced on you or not, when we are on things like Free Will, what matters is the lack of choice in first place

Im continuing to prove the point that you began about 4 posts ago about people complaining about life. If you diddent want to be born then just take your own life. Simple as that. Yet no one wants to do it. Quit your complaining then is all i have to say to them. Suicide isent rational. That was my point.

S

We are paying the price that our ancestors made according to the bible. Not sure if I agree with it. All im doing is just stating facts. Not opinions. The bible states something about generational curses. Things that stay with every generation born. Theres nothing to argue here. im not even stating an opnion.

Agreed

Religious teachings teach this. free will and freedom is regulated. Anyone who says otherwise is blind. If you can get penalized for something then a right has been taken away. Church binds people with rules taking away more freedoms. The church teaches that by giving up some of your freedoms life will be more enjoyable. Not what I teach its what they teach.
The fool prince comparison wasent in the logical sense but the social class sence. A prince has more libertys and freedoms than a mere fool aka the jester. prince can rule the castle by bloodline meanwhile the fool will USUALLY have to work there way to that.

Actually as ive stated there still is proof that GOD exists but thats not for this forum. you explain miracles to me. Thats the main thing keeping me in church.

And I never said I was ever disagreeing with you. I only sought to correct and further elaborate on some of what you said. We all understand or to some aspect understand true freedom dosent exist. Or else wed be a lawless people. wed be nothing more than the animals we see outside. But thats a whole other topic on its own. I believe weve run through the free shin dig before.

its not that i have 100% belief in them. Its just there. you can argue the story the cat in the hat saying the cat was a dog. the author has it stated that its a cat therefore its a cat. Theres nothing more to say about it other than parodies which in themselves are fake.

hmmmm. nothing more to add.

I will sum this up in one line:- Fared your right lol ^_-

YAY ME

PS I don't which line was more amusing, holy's wind up or Underling's response

Aninamar

09-10-2009, 12:07 PM

PS I don't which line was more amusing, holy's wind up or Underling's response

I think the most amusing line is the line of logical on different line (http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/Abiogenocide/Mylineoflogical.jpg).

Sorry for the trolling, I'm in stitches.

Ishikawa Oshro

09-10-2009, 03:13 PM

So you saying they may actually really wish to kill themselves and are not actually lying about it (lying being your words not mine,) which means I'm right there. But whether I'm right or your wrong ^_-, this is still a moot point, like I keep saying it doesn't matter if you agree with a choice which is forced on you or not, when we are on things like Free Will, what matters is the lack of choice in first place

You dont have an opinion till your born. Once youre born and you can think of suicide do it. Dont complain that you had no say in being born cause you sure do have a say in getting yourself out. Your point is a mott point >.>

Whats to win fared. I was never really arguing anything. Just elaborating and further adding. If you mean you win as in Ishi took a whole day to reply then yes fared you utterly beat me.

Fat1Fared

09-10-2009, 03:17 PM

You dont have an opinion till your born. Once youre born and you can think of suicide do it. Dont complain that you had no say in being born cause you sure do have a say in getting yourself out. Your point is a moot point >.>

Whats to win fared. I was never really arguing anything. Just elaborating and further adding. If you mean you win as in Ishi took a whole day to reply then yes fared you utterly beat me.

I was joking with win part ^_-

PS but if heaven and hell exist, then we still exist even after death, meaning if we didn't want to exist, it was/is still forced on us, against our will and that still isn't the point, the point is not if we agree with choice made for us or not, the point is we don't have a choice in matter

And all of this leads back to my original point that the easy answers you get from things like church, like Free Will and devil being blame for evil...etc, when ask deep questions like why is their evil acts in world, simply cannot be right and this is part of what personally leads me to think that all the other already suspect sounding answers are simply wrong as well.

Ishikawa Oshro

09-10-2009, 03:36 PM

PS but if heaven and hell exist, then we still exist even after death, meaning if we didn't want to exist, it was/is still forced on us, against our will and that still isn't the point, the point is not if we agree with choice made for us or not, the point is we don't have a choice in matter

And all of this leads back to my original point that the easy answers you get from things like church, like Free Will and devil being blame for evil...etc, when ask deep questions like why is their evil acts in world, simply cannot be right and this is part of what personally leads me to think that all the other already suspect sounding answers are simply wrong as well.

The devil was only the gateway to evil. Humans are still evil beings. The bible says it itself. The devil cannot be to blame for 911, the holocaust, pearl harbor, columbine, katrina, the typhoon in east asia, the civil war in samalia, and plenty others. Bacteria cant be blamed on the devil and from what i know its not all the devils fault.

And Im Guessing thats what your trying to say. TAKE YOUR FILTHY WIN!!!! lolz

grimfang999

09-10-2009, 03:36 PM

I was joking with win part ^_-

PS but if heaven and hell exist, then we still exist even after death, meaning if we didn't want to exist, it was/is still forced on us, against our will and that still isn't the point, the point is not if we agree with choice made for us or not, the point is we don't have a choice in matter

of course, this is taking into the belief that souls are constantly born. if there is a finite amount of souls that have forever lived by God or Gods side and chose to be incarnated into flesh as humans, in the process having their memories erased until they reach spiritual form again and return to the spirit realm. if this is the case, then we did have the coice to be born and if our very existance has been eternal (if that is truely possable, even though in the life beyond it could very well be) then perhaps we willed ourselves to be then, the further into the thoughts of a spirit and the eternally lasting you go the more complex it is. but what im getting at is if we have the choice to be reincarnated then we wernt forced into life

however you are talking about if you willed not to exist. as a soul, perhaps you can, and a new soul is born, perhaps by will. personally if there is a heaven or hell the people who are trapped in hell for eternal damnation its not quite fair and if they redo their life that has given them to choice to return, but like you said then we have no free will in that case. so the way to conclude free will both as a human and soul is to adopt the ideas that:

i) reincarnation exists as a matter of choice, not as a forced cycle until you have reached perfection
ii) there is neither heaven or hell, but a single spirit realm where people exist with God or the Gods. perhaps the ones who are morally wrong are shunned from him or them and then have the choice of returning to Earth to learn better ways.
iii) there is a way for spirits to will themselves out of existance, or at least into an extreme sleep until they are ready to return, or maybe will their previous memories to go

this is a possability and gives a large amount of free will to each soul

Kipper

10-26-2009, 03:47 PM

grimfang999

10-26-2009, 03:58 PM

This sounds like a rather crazy idea because you reading this proves me wrong, but I've always thought of life as living in our own world and trying to make ourselves as important as we want.

In other words. I'm living in a totally different universe than you. In short, the world revolves around me, and your world revolves around you.

Take this for example. My grandmother died as healthy but had ALS, she was an amazing woman and would help anyone. God shouldn't of took her away, I considered this as a wake up call for me to shape up. So here's the question. Why would God take a amazing person's life for my benefit. It makes no sense.

Another point is the amount of ironic events I've experienced in my life, I saw this as the most plausible explanation.

Though I may have gotten into the crack a bit too much ^_^

it has a logic to it. i have a personal idea simlar to it, linking with perception of sight, sound and such, like i see and read things as it appears and everything follows that but to another it may appear to read to be seen differently but there is an established link between all life which connects to make sense of the different perceptions into something we can understand.

for example, i may read this statement as "the destruction of the human race will be lead by our own judgement", but as far as i know another may read it as "hushui sayuf ujyhg hsiyu aluihj aluheal". however, when you respond in your perception it will say the same thing as you see but the same thing in how i see.

but on your idea, yeah in a sense of perception and interconnecting universes. right from the bottom degree of thinking of yourself to quite litterally the world surrounds you but in a connected universe its focused on somewhere else.

Kipper

10-26-2009, 04:01 PM

Your idea is similar, and does makes sense, how did you come to think of this?

grimfang999

10-26-2009, 04:05 PM

Your idea is similar, and does makes sense, how did you come to think of this?

i actually have no idea, though of it years ago when i was like 10 or something, otherwise something i have always considered. i guess i was thinking of how the world would look like if i saw through someone elses eyes. i also used to watched Dexters labratory and there was an episode where dexter got himself lazer eye surgery and he saw the world as it really was. im assuming an infusion of that plus my seemingly lifelong philosophical mind (seriously even as a child i was apparently philosophical, like refering to morning as "the other side of the night" and such) came to that conclusion

HolyShadow

10-26-2009, 08:03 PM

You know, if we all worked together, we could write a book...

Kipper

10-27-2009, 05:13 AM

Quite the mixed up book ,but yeah.

Ishikawa Oshro

10-27-2009, 09:17 AM

the yugioh abridged forum guide to life and religon lolz

grimfang999

10-27-2009, 09:40 AM

sounds like a plan of some sort

Ishikawa Oshro

10-27-2009, 09:48 AM

its our secret plan to get the world to easily play
THE GAME

Cocyta

10-27-2009, 11:36 AM

Now I lost the Game!

grimfang999

10-27-2009, 12:25 PM

well i didnt lose the game because i lost the game only 5 mins before

Ishikawa Oshro

10-27-2009, 12:26 PM

gwahahaha you see one down only 395,450,543,000 people left to go

HolyShadow

10-27-2009, 04:03 PM

Well, I mean...

We could have a facilitator, like darkarcher, ask a political or philosophical question.

Each of us could prepare a long answer, and then we could record the two best opposing answers.

grimfang999

10-27-2009, 05:16 PM

fair enough and seems logical

Ishikawa Oshro

10-27-2009, 06:20 PM

that sounds like the debate game.
Except we dont square off 1v1

Aninamar

10-27-2009, 06:25 PM

omg faggots

HolyShadow

10-27-2009, 06:28 PM

Oh look. It's Glenn Beck. Glenn, why must you have TWO books?

Aninamar

10-27-2009, 06:30 PM

http://www.comixed.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/yodawgjimcarey.jpg

Fat1Fared

10-28-2009, 06:35 AM

it has a logic to it. i have a personal idea simlar to it, linking with perception of sight, sound and such, like i see and read things as it appears and everything follows that but to another it may appear to read to be seen differently but there is an established link between all life which connects to make sense of the different perceptions into something we can understand.

for example, i may read this statement as "the destruction of the human race will be lead by our own judgement", but as far as i know another may read it as "hushui sayuf ujyhg hsiyu aluihj aluheal". however, when you respond in your perception it will say the same thing as you see but the same thing in how i see.

but on your idea, yeah in a sense of perception and interconnecting universes. right from the bottom degree of thinking of yourself to quite litterally the world surrounds you but in a connected universe its focused on somewhere else.

you know there is more logical result, god doesn't exist and so death is in fact, just natural part of world and like all natural acts, it acts without senitent regard of deversing/undevrsing, right/wrong and moralistic/Intrinsic value

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 07:48 AM

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 07:57 AM

Even if God exists, that does not make death any less a natural part of the world.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 09:59 AM

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 10:23 AM

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 10:23 AM

agreed cocyta, if God does exiist then life after death is as natural as life.

and fat, the reason why i dont call myself an athiest is because religious beliefs are like political parties (but not in terms of control, otherwise that would be denouncing religion). on one wing there is the Athiests who claim nothing has a reason, God does not exist and there is no afterlife, and on the other the religious fanatics who live their life based on religion. the left wing of Athiesm is just giving up everything except what can be seen and the right wing of absolute religion commitence is giving up everything to the point of blindness. overall both are rather foolish

I for one am in the middle. i have no claims to any religion, but neither do i deny something beyond. i believe in spirits and a spirit realm for example, so that could make me spiritualist, though i search for proof and there seems to be various pieces of evidence from my family alone which can prove it. however, my beliefs are not settled there and consider the logistics behind physics and interconnections, thus combining science and supernatural undestandings to know.

in short, Absolute Athiesm and Absolute Religious blindness are both as foolish as each other in my eyes, because both reach a flawed result at the end. i might just be babbling, or am i saying something? your choice to see

you must npot understand religion. You dont need a GOD to believe in a religion.
How do you think scientology is considere da religion???

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

youve simply just made up one of your own. Its your thoughts and your beliefs. You dont have to join an existing religion to be called religious.

and yes you are babbling. if yout gonna believe i a religion or make your own up you might as well commit yourself to it dont you think??? Religion is a way of life. If your not following those religious mandates then you are a hypocrite. You say we dont talk to un religious people. But yet you make space to talk to nbc for your own religious gain O.O

And absolute athesism O.O. Lets not go there. To be athesist you have to be completly. Or else your considered semi religious. you cant be semi athesist cause if you believe in a little of something than you are semi faithfull to whatever you may believe in. Then youd be what we call a hypocrite of your faith. Cause you believe but do otherwise.

Its give or take. you cant take what you want and leave what you dont like.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 10:33 AM

Wait a second, I just said that death was a natural part of life whether or not a god or gods exist.

Personally, I believe that when a living entity dies, the energy of that entity is recycled.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed.

People used to believe that eating an animal granted a person the essence of that animal.
All living beings that consume other living creatures do gain a certain amount of metabolic energy.

From what research has been done, ghosts and other spirits consist of energy. For some reason, some entities become ghosts while others do not become them. Perhaps we might all become ghosts if not for the recycling of "spirit energy." What does this mean for the ghosts and spirits that do exist? Something keeps their energy from being recycled and used more constructively. Why? Well, many ghosts have had traumatic deaths, so perhaps this trauma keeps the energy tied to its present form. Other ghosts do not realize they are dead, and this also keeps their energy tied to its remembered form.

dont worry i was talking about something, im misinterpreting alot of things today

you must pot understand religion. You dont need a GOD to believe in a religion.
How do you think scientology is considere da religion???

forgive me, i was talking about religions which did have Gods, not the ones which dont

youve simply just made up one of your own. Its your thoughts and your beliefs. You dont have to join an existing religion to be called religious.

no spirituality is a real religion and it is fair enough, but yeah, i wouldnt say im completely either, im just trying to piece everything together

and yes you are babbling. if yout gonna believe i a religion or make your own up you might as well commit yourself to it dont you think??? Religion is a way of life. If your not following those religious mandates then you are a hypocrite. You say we dont talk to un religious people. But yet you make space to talk to nbc for your own religious gain O.O

i misworded it and have corrected it, i just dont like people who say there is nothing beyond just because it cant be proven.

And absolute athesism O.O. Lets not go there. To be athesist you have to be completly. Or else your considered semi religious. you cant be semi athesist cause if you believe in a little of something than you are semi faithfull to whatever you may believe in. Then youd be what we call a hypocrite of your faith. Cause you believe but do otherwise.

Its give or take. you cant take what you want and leave what you dont like.

i just want people to at least consider the possabilities without blinding themself absolutely to one thing thats all. ok that maybe my belief and im trying to force it upon people, but yeah.

sorry i tend to speak foolish much of the time without thinking things through. well thinking things through just in the wrong way or wording it wrong. just leave that and lets move on to something else

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 10:40 AM

no spirituality is a real religion and it is fair enough, but yeah, i wouldnt say im completely either, im just trying to piece everything together

Its a type of religion. All religions have their sub classification.
Your may be spirituality but in no way have you claimed to follow wiccan or old native american teachings.
You have also stated that these are my beliefs are not settled there and consider the logistics behind physics and interconnections, thus combining science and supernatural undestandings to know. your own beliefs. There not intewrtwined with another religion. You have come up with your idead whch is fine and dandy. Thats exactly what science does. Science studys all this just like you do. To find answers. Does that mean their religious??? Not in any way or form. Most scientist claim to be athesist so their minds arent biased on any one result or trying to find a certain result. It leaves the mind open for possibilities and proper thinking.
That may be why fared called you an athesist. You study but you dont act on your beliefs. Are you a hypocrite to your own beliefs. Or are they just your thoughts that you study???? (thus claiming you athesist lolz)

MrsSallyBakura

10-28-2009, 10:41 AM

you know there is more logical result, god doesn't exist and so death is in fact, just natural part of world and like all natural acts, it acts without senitent regard of deversing/undevrsing, right/wrong and moralistic/Intrinsic value

Your sentence would make the same point if you eliminated the part that I crossed off. Unless I'm misunderstanding here.

God is illogical? I guess all believers must be complete idiots who live through life based on how they're feeling and they never think about their faith. :tongue:

Have you ever met, or at least read any writings by a Christian philosopher?

Fat1Fared

10-28-2009, 10:44 AM

you must npot understand religion. You dont need a GOD to believe in a religion.
How do you think scientology is considere da religion???

This is true, Buddists also don't have a god

youve simply just made up one of your own. Its your thoughts and your beliefs. You dont have to join an existing religion to be called religious.

agreed again (this scary new feeling)

and yes you are babbling. if yout gonna believe i a religion or make your own up you might as well commit yourself to it dont you think??? Religion is a way of life. If your not following those religious mandates then you are a hypocrite. You say we dont talk to un religious people. But yet you make space to talk to nbc for your own religious gain O.O

Scarily enough, I agree here as well to point, religion may seem crazy to me, but poeple who take the middle road of, I believe in god, but accept the ideas behind him, this isn't to say, you can't accept god and reject religion at same time, but those who sor of say, I believe in god for sake of believing, and hedging my bets, but won't actually have beleif in a god, or what his existence would mean (even a small and personal one) make no sense as well

And absolute athesism O.O. Lets not go there. To be athesist you have to be completly. Or else your considered semi religious. you cant be semi athesist cause if you believe in a little of something than you are semi faithfull to whatever you may believe in. Then youd be what we call a hypocrite of your faith. Cause you believe but do otherwise.

well most athesists are actually angontic, (can't spell) where don't believe in god and cannot defeat to pointless and somewhat flawed agrument of can't prove that, but at same time, you basically do believe or you don't.

Its give or take. you cant take what you want and leave what you dont like.

think thats life

relevence? lol

you were using twisted logic to justifie how illogical death is when add in an @all loving god@

My point is, that makes more sense just accept god isn't part of it and this is most likely because he doesn't exist, as if he did exist and still wasn't part of it, brings up lot of questions in both religious belief and idea behind most gods

Wait a second, I just said that death was a natural part of life whether or not a god or gods exist.

Personally, I believe that when a living entity dies, the energy of that entity is recycled.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed.

People used to believe that eating an animal granted a person the essence of that animal.
All living beings that consume other living creatures do gain a certain amount of metabolic energy.

From what research has been done, ghosts and other spirits consist of energy. For some reason, some entities become ghosts while others do not become them. Perhaps we might all become ghosts if not for the recycling of "spirit energy." What does this mean for the ghosts and spirits that do exist? Something keeps their energy from being recycled and used more constructively. Why? Well, many ghosts have had traumatic deaths, so perhaps this trauma keeps the energy tied to its present form. Other ghosts do not realize they are dead, and this also keeps their energy tied to its remembered form.

we're more about poeple trying to rationality in death, to justifie a gods involvement, but on weith your point, well is evidence for ghosts, (all be it in substance evidence, but evidence enough to make them vaild thoery and therofore, this makes more sense to me than heaven/hell...etc)

Your sentence would make the same point if you eliminated the part that I crossed off. Unless I'm misunderstanding here.

God is illogical? I guess all believers must be complete idiots who live through life based on how they're feeling and they never think about their faith. :tongue:

Have you ever met, or at least read any writings by a Christian philosopher?

read part put at start to coc, fact is, if god does exist, then have 2 results here:-

1=He doesn't get involved in Death, making our view on him flawed and the idea's behind him double-standed (yet again)

2=He gets in involved in way which makes no sense to us, and still means that his way of thinking is flawed to us, making having faith in seem even less logical,

ether way death is sticky area for god

PS remember all believe is logical to person making it, the problem is, do you want to follow someone who logic is so different from own, makings his ideas so different from yours

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 10:48 AM

Your sentence would make the same point if you eliminated the part that I crossed off. Unless I'm misunderstanding here.

God is illogical? I guess all believers must be complete idiots who live through life based on how they're feeling and they never think about their faith. :tongue:

Have you ever met, or at least read any writings by a Christian philosopher?

sally fared is only stating his thoughts. which are very true to a degree. To someone whos never experienced what you call GOd we would have no idea what you were trying to say. to us your term of GOD is like my imaginery friend when I was 6. I swear he chucked a rock at me but thats neither here nor there.

GOD is your belief. If we took the time to read book someone threw at us that explained their experience with GOd or the supernatural I wouldent have enough free time to knock a knucle baby off here and there.

Anyone can write a good novel. Its quite easy. Throw some eye catching word here and there. throw a plot in. character advancement. Maby a sex scene to keep the men reading. And then you add a jaw dropping adventure and you have a novel ^_~

And your trapping yourself now lolz. you said all followers of god must be idiots to follow the faith. That is true. One of your churchs (possibly all religious) churchs are idiots who have followed nonsense. Wether it be the christians, wiccans, athesist, or something else. Someones wrong. And their followers fell into their trap of faith.

unless of course the religion thats right has a penalty game

MrsSallyBakura

10-28-2009, 10:49 AM

you were using twisted logic to justifie how illogical death is when add in an @all loving god@

Nobody's heard this one before...

This relates to my previous question that you missed since you were posting at the same time I was, but have you ever read anything by a Christian philosopher regarding the whole "There's suffering and death in the world" coexisting with an all-loving God bit? I'm not saying that if you have that you would entirely agree with it, but to say that it's illogical is undermining the education that these philosophers received. Just because they believe in God it doesn't mean that they're illogical or stupid.

MrsSallyBakura

10-28-2009, 10:54 AM

if god does exist, then have 2 results here:-

1=He doesn't get involved in Death, making our view on him flawed and the idea's behind him double-standed (yet again)

2=He gets in involved in way which makes no sense to us, and still means that his way of thinking is flawed to us, making having faith in seem even less logical,

ether way death is sticky area for god

Why are you limiting yourself to 2 options?

PS remember all believe is logical to person making it, the problem is, do you want to follow someone who logic is so different from own, makings his ideas so different from yours

I'm just asking because it gives perspective.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 11:03 AM

[quote]no spirituality is a real religion and it is fair enough, but yeah, i wouldnt say im completely either, im just trying to piece everything together

Its a type of religion. All religions have their sub classification.
Your may be spirituality but in no way have you claimed to follow wiccan or old native american teachings.

You have also stated that these are your own beliefs. There not intertwined with another religion. You have come up with your idea whch is fine and dandy. Thats exactly what science does. Science studys all this just like you do. To find answers. Does that mean their religious??? Not in any way or form. Most scientist claim to be athesist so their minds arent biased on any one result or trying to find a certain result. It leaves the mind open for possibilities and proper thinking.

its modern spirituallity which im closest to, my family seems to have become that as well, especially my aunt. in fact last weekend I was actually discussing my philosophical beliefs and surprisingly i had stumbled quite far into the ideas of spirituality with some links to christianity like the beliefs in God. so yes my beliefs are somewhat intertwined but enfused.

i know scientists are searching for answers and are athiests mostly for unbiased results, however there is a difference between searching for answers spiritually and physically. some athiests who are simply athiests just because they are, think proving something is physically there or functions a certain way disproves God or religion, which it doesnt really since they are different things. the questions "what is the point of it?" and "why is it there?" is where philosophy comes into it, and athiests just say there may be no reason whatever, it just is. and so the grounds are the same but looking at different sides; the provable and the possable, "how?" and "why?"

might of contradicted myself here not sure

That may be why fared called you an athesist. You study but you dont act on your beliefs. Are you a hypocrite to your own beliefs. Or are they just your thoughts that you study???? (thus claiming you athesist lolz)

who says i dont act on my beliefs? i simply just dont dicuss them much. i cannot be called an athiest because athiest quite literally is translated in "without God", just as monothiest is "one God" and polythiest is "multiple Gods". however i do believe there is supreme being, definately the creator of the universe at the bare minimum so that immediately takes me away from being an athiest.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 11:14 AM

you were using twisted logic to justifie how illogical death is when add in an @all loving god@

two different points my friend two different points. also who said God was related to death? he could have created it, does not mean he controls it. an inventor does not control all of his inventions, he just makes what it does

And your trapping yourself now lolz. you said all followers of god must be idiots to follow the faith. That is true. One of your churchs (possibly all religious) churchs are idiots who have followed nonsense. Wether it be the christians, wiccans, athesist, or something else. Someones wrong. And their followers fell into their trap of faith.

dude thats just harsh. they may not all be wrong. my mum believes this:

God is like a tree, and all religious paths are branches leading off of him.

it is not foolish to be part of religion, you said it yourself: its a path of life, and there may be no wrong way

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 11:23 AM

its modern spirituallity which im closest to, my family seems to have become that as well, especially my aunt. in fact last weekend I was actually discussing my philosophical beliefs and surprisingly i had stumbled quite far into the ideas of spirituality with some links to christianity like the beliefs in God. so yes my beliefs are somewhat intertwined but enfused.

Does your belief have a name other than your thoguhts?
Cause last I checked thoughts are made up (and made up dosent mean you can be right. Just means everything you say you are basing it off your experiences and your thoughs)
and if you never noticed. Christians believe in the spirit realm also. Its not a fresh or new concept -_-. Its old and well thought out. So far your ideas sound like hypocritical christian. Just you dont wantr to do the thing they call getting on your kneesand serving their GOD. And if im correct you did say you were homosexual which dosent help your cas emuch if not at all. you were once christian but probably ran away cause homosexuality cannot inherit heaven. therefore you have now made a spin off religion.
but your spin off religion is ending up back at its roots. christianity -_-

i know scientists are searching for answers and are athiests mostly for unbiased results, however there is a difference between searching for answers spiritually and physically. some athiests who are simply athiests just because they are, think proving something is physically there or functions a certain way disproves God or religion, which it doesnt really since they are different things. the questions "what is the point of it?" and "why is it there?" is where philosophy comes into it, and athiests just say there may be no reason whatever, it just is. and so the grounds are the same but looking at different sides; the provable and the possable, "how?" and "why?"

im not even gonna attempot to answer this. I have no idea what your trying to sya. something about science and athesist looking for physical answers and not spiritual>.>

who says i dont act on my beliefs? i simply just dont dicuss them much. i cannot be called an athiest because athiest quite literally is translated in "without God", just as monothiest is "one God" and polythiest is "multiple Gods". however i do believe there is supreme being, definately the creator of the universe at the bare minimum so that immediately takes me away from being an athiest.

From what ive heard your religion/beliefs is only your thoughts as form what youve said. and athesist is without GOD. But im sure athesis do the same you do. Question GOD and see if hes real or not. Your only considered religious if you partake in religious duties and are sold out to the idea. your concepts are only thoughts so far from what you said. there are no actions for you to prove you are religious.
I can say im brave all i want and boast of courages things. But if i dont do any im really doing injustice to what I say.
So far there are only words and no actions

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 11:28 AM

dude thats just harsh. they may not all be wrong. my mum believes this:

your naive. The only way no one is wrong is if they all change their ideals. Religion has sects with different ideas. GOd says if you are a adulterer you cannot go to heaven. My religion may say adulteres can go to heaven. someones gonna be a winner.

Are you trying to tell em satanist and christians will end up in the same place according to their logic??? they believe in TWO completly things. And satan and GOD are rivals in the faith. according to god satanist go to hell. According to satanist satan will deliever the from GOD. Either god is getting overthrown or satanist are going to hell.
If god and satan shake hands and call it even then ther efollowers still have it wrong. Because neither of their ideas were brought to fruition. a new one was made.

Fat1Fared

10-28-2009, 11:30 AM

Nobody's heard this one before...

And that acts as rebuttual because? (in fact the fact we're still saying it, means it is another those things which religion cannot answer and so fops off)

This relates to my previous question that you missed since you were posting at the same time I was, but have you ever read anything by a Christian philosopher regarding the whole "There's suffering and death in the world" coexisting with an all-loving God bit? I'm not saying that if you have that you would entirely agree with it, but to say that it's illogical is undermining the education that these philosophers received. Just because they believe in God it doesn't mean that they're illogical or stupid.

I'm just asking because it gives perspective.

Read several, but none in great detail, as most are like Bernard Haisch and try to twist or force our more human or accepted overall logic to fit the idea of god, (square pigs into round holes) which in my opinion proves this cannot be right answer,
=its much like what grim did, but on bigger level

[QUOTE=MrsSallyBakura;914970]Why are you limiting yourself to 2 options?

Those are two board statments, but doesn't stop their relence, the others all come out like twisting both idea of death and its links to god, or god and his links to death, to make them more acceptable and if have twist it, then means got wrong answer here (and this coming from person who doesn't even believe is totally right answer to everything)

Grim reread all I put, for answer to that

killshot

10-28-2009, 11:31 AM

I feel that I should say something here, but since this has become a bad grammar orgy, I have no idea where to start. I don't even know what anyone is talking about anymore.

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 11:35 AM

no spirituality is a real religion and it is fair enough, but yeah, I wouldn't say I'm completely either, I'm just trying to piece everything together

I just want people to at least consider the possibilities without blinding themselves absolutely to one thing that's all. OK, that's maybe my belief and I'm trying to force it upon people, but yeah.

Sorry, I tend to speak foolishly much of the time without thinking things through. Well, thinking things through just in the wrong way or wording it wrong... just leave that and let's move on to something else

It sounds to me like you're agnostic (http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm).

Well, most atheists are actually agnostics who don't believe in god and cannot defeat to pointless and somewhat flawed argument of can't prove that, but at same time, you basically do believe or you don't.

Atheism isn't quite the same as agnosticism. An atheist does not believe there is a god or gods. Agnostics either say there's no proof either way, or that they just don't know.

Atheism is certain. Agnosticism is not certain.

You know, there is more logical result, god doesn't exist and so death is in fact, just natural part of world and like all natural acts, it acts without sentient regard of deserving/undeserving, right/wrong and moralistic/intrinsic value

God is illogical? I guess all believers must be complete idiots who live through life based on how they're feeling and they never think about their faith. :tongue:

Have you ever met, or at least read any writings by a Christian philosopher?

1=He doesn't get involved in Death, making our view on him flawed and the ideas behind him double-standard (yet again)

2=He gets involved in way which makes no sense to us, and still means that his way of thinking is flawed to us, making having faith in seem even less logical,

either way death is sticky area for god

PS remember all believe it's logical to person making it, the problem is, do you want to follow someone whose logic is so different from own, making his ideas so different from yours

how illogical death is when one adds in an all-loving god

Perhaps the problem is the belief that god or the gods are loving.

Even if god or gods exist, that does not mean that he/she/it/they care about us, or that they are even aware of us.

Some ancient cultures believed that humanity was created to be the slaves of the gods.

But we can talk of more recent concepts...

In The Mysterious Stranger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Stranger), Mark Twain wrote a story about an angel that visited a small town. Since angels did not eat of the Forbidden Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, this angel would do things that seemed terrible to humans (because Adam and Eve did eat of that fruit), but were deemed as "no problem" to the angel. Why? Because God was OK with punishing evil harshly, unlike our ideas of "cruel and unusual punishment."

Or we could discuss the Cthulhu Mythos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos), the essence of which is that the entirety of humanity is insignificant on a cosmic scale. The "gods" are not aware of us until we make ourselves heard, or we are accidentally trod upon.

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 11:35 AM

!!!!!ew era gniklat tuoba SDIA

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 11:54 AM

Does your belief have a name other than your thoguhts?
Cause last I checked thoughts are made up (and made up dosent mean you can be right. Just means everything you say you are basing it off your experiences and your thoughs)
and if you never noticed. Christians believe in the spirit realm also. Its not a fresh or new concept -_-. Its old and well thought out. So far your ideas sound like hypocritical christian. Just you dont wantr to do the thing they call getting on your kneesand serving their GOD. And if im correct you did say you were homosexual which dosent help your cas emuch if not at all. you were once christian but probably ran away cause homosexuality cannot inherit heaven. therefore you have now made a spin off religion.
but your spin off religion is ending up back at its roots. christianity -_-

first off, WTF WHERE AND HOW THE HELL DID I SAY I WAS GAY???

second, yes christians do believe in a spirit realm as well. however there is differences. first of all they have heaven and hell, which is the traditional idea. i dont believe that, there is only one place which is the realm. heaven goes along the lines of eternal happiness, but eternal happiness could mean you have lost all reason which i dont think God would want, and hell is just ridiculous itself. mine is simply one realm.

From what ive heard your religion/beliefs is only your thoughts as form what youve said. and athesist is without GOD. But im sure athesis do the same you do. Question GOD and see if hes real or not. Your only considered religious if you partake in religious duties and are sold out to the idea. your concepts are only thoughts so far from what you said. there are no actions for you to prove you are religious.
I can say im brave all i want and boast of courages things. But if i dont do any im really doing injustice to what I say.
So far there are only words and no actions

all you know of me is by what ive said, you cant see me over the internet. but yet again since i do not belong to a religion how can i undertake religious duties? i simply follow moral code, admittdly the 10 commandments, so i guess you could say im partially christian, but not quite.

and yes athiests question God but the difference is they are trying to disprove him and im trying to prove. its about angle.

your naive. The only way no one is wrong is if they all change their ideals. Religion has sects with different ideas. GOd says if you are a adulterer you cannot go to heaven. My religion may say adulteres can go to heaven. someones gonna be a winner.

your naive. The only way no one is wrong is if they all change their ideals. Religion has sects with different ideas. GOd says if you are a adulterer you cannot go to heaven. My religion may say adulteres can go to heaven. someones gonna be a winner.

ok then, that was only a brief overview so i didnt include this: she believes it is all about faith. and besides, most religions, with God or not have the same aims and morals, aside from spoof religions. also, you call me naive when this is what my mum belives?it does ot mean i believe it, but it sounds fair enough

Are you trying to tell em satanist and christians will end up in the same place according to their logic??? they believe in TWO completly things. And satan and GOD are rivals in the faith. according to god satanist go to hell. According to satanist satan will deliever the from GOD. Either god is getting overthrown or satanist are going to hell.
If god and satan shake hands and call it even then ther efollowers still have it wrong. Because neither of their ideas were brought to fruition. a new one was made.

satanism is a difficult one indeed. but then there is the difference of good and evil, and im assuming she was considering the majority of religions with good intentions

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 12:04 PM

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 12:10 PM

first off, WTF WHERE AND HOW THE HELL DID I SAY I WAS GAY???

second, yes christians do believe in a spirit realm as well. however there is differences. first of all they have heaven and hell, which is the traditional idea. i dont believe that, there is only one place which is the realm. heaven goes along the lines of eternal happiness, but eternal happiness could mean you have lost all reason which i dont think God would want, and hell is just ridiculous itself. mine is simply one realm.

a while ago. I remember useless info. What can I say.

And are you saying your throwing out what the christians elieve is gods divine thoughts by making your own up O.O which i dont think God would want, and hell is just ridiculous itself. mine is simply one realm. Im not seeing the intertwining O.O
Yours is still off the ricktor scale

all you know of me is by what ive said, you cant see me over the internet. but yet again since i do not belong to a religion how can i undertake religious duties? i simply follow moral code, admittdly the 10 commandments, so i guess you could say im partially christian, but not quite.

and yes athiests question God but the difference is they are trying to disprove him and im trying to prove. its about angle.

Now your following a different religon. But I still claim you as a hypocrite. you cant be a half christian. The chirstians may accept you but GOD never will. If im correct in revelation he says if you are lukewarm or cold he will spew you out of his mouth(meaning you cant be half in and half out) If you have no moral codes then your religion is still only thoughts. actions speak louder than words. I dont think ive even heard of a religion where you dont act on your beliefs.

ok then, that was only a brief overview so i didnt include this: she believes it is all about faith. and besides, most religions, with God or not have the same aims and morals, aside from spoof religions. also, you call me naive when this is what my mum belives?it does ot mean i believe it, but it sounds fair enough

Lolz. Let me quote your words.
dude thats just harsh. they may not all be wrong. my mum believes this:

your words not mine. you said that they may not all be wrong. I only corrected you. theres no argument. Someones wrong and thats that. they may not all perish but someones mandates and codes and what nt were never needed and were made up. Unless of course your gonna tell me when I die ill see,alla,GOD,buddah,maby jesus, and a slew of others?????

satanism is a difficult one indeed. but then there is the difference of good and evil, and im assuming she was considering the majority of religions with good intentions

You ever hear the term what is evil to you is good to me and vise versa???
you claim christian and all the others are all good religions but you dont know. your not the all knowing fang (that sounds kinda kewl). Therefore you only have your man made perception of what is just and unjust.
satanist may be the answers to life inono and neither do you. There beliefs which are gambles.
Only a fool believes all religions will end up in the same place ACCORDING to their own teachings.
If what you say is true what would be the need of converting people to your faith???? *Come to my faith cause we have a big screen ^_^. Seems are teachings will end us in the exact same place as each other ^_^) Not

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 12:13 PM

It doesn't help that there appear to being three types of Satanists: the ones who just want to shock people, the ones who are doing it because they're evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz), and the ones who think Satan has just been getting a bad rap because he disobeyed God (they worship Satan for the power/ideal of individualism).

As for whether or not God and Satan are actually on different sides, some people believe that Satan acts on God's behalf by testing people.

Ugh that answer is as bad as the idea and birth of scientology.
The term satanist is used loosely.
In its core if you claim to be satanist you have an affilition with the man from the bible called lucifer. catst down for trying to oerthrow GOD. You join satan and make a pact or so they claim and satan will bestow you with a gift.
Fortune telling, fire, magic, w.e cooky gift they want.
though that seems very false because i dont see any witches on brooms or suoer villans with eye beams.

So Id go with the idea that he gives them some kind of power and promises a protection and happyness of somekind.

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 12:38 PM

The term satanist is used loosely.
In its core if you claim to be satanist you have an affiliation with the man from the bible called Lucifer cast down for trying to overthrow GOD. You join Satan and make a pact or so they claim and Satan will bestow you with a gift.
Fortune telling, fire, magic, w.e kooky gift they want.
though that seems very false because I don't see any witches on brooms or super villains with eye beams.

That's one type of Satanism, usually followed by the ones who want to shock people and the ones who are doing it because they're evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz).

These are the Satanists we hear the most about, because they're either celebrities (such as Marilyn Manson), or they've committed crimes (such as the animal mutilations we used to hear about all the time).

So I'd go with the idea that he gives them some kind of power and promises a protection and happiness of some kind.

This is the general idea of the official Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.com/), which was formed by those who believed in Satan as a spirit of individualism.

The Satanists who end up committing crimes do not usually join the Church of Satan. They tend to create lesser cults of their own, and these cults are not recognized by the Church of Satan.

In fact, all the known cases of Satanic crimes are linked to these lesser cults rather than to the Church of Satan.

Of course, mistaken ideas about the Church of Satan do occasionally lead people that are just interested in shocking others to join the actual Church.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 12:49 PM

a while ago. I remember useless info. What can I say.

well, whatever it was it was wrong, im straight

And are you saying your throwing out what the christians believe is gods divine thoughts by making your own up O.O Im not seeing the intertwining O.O
Yours is still off the ricktor scale

hey like i said i believe in god but my idea of the afterlife is different. what i said was only brief. a bit more detail is each soul has lived lives (choice re-incarnation) and when they return to the spirit form all their past life memories return and they can learn and reflect from their most recent life, then when they are ready be reborn once more. of course, this is only one of my ideas, i have a couple which work somewhat along the same lines but i only think of the ideas, its not entirely settled 100%

Now your following a different religon. But I still claim you as a hypocrite. you cant be a half christian. The chirstians may accept you but GOD never will. If im correct in revelation he says if you are lukewarm or cold he will spew you out of his mouth(meaning you cant be half in and half out) If you have no moral codes then your religion is still only thoughts. actions speak louder than words. I dont think ive even heard of a religion where you dont act on your beliefs.

while i think some of the things God said in the old testament is good, such as the 10 commandments, i believe that if this is the true word of God, then the parts of good were correct, but authorities could have corrupted the original copies to make God seem vengeful upon those who didn't believe. but then, i would need an untainted copy of the bible to prove that it is the word of God and that God is absolutely good.

i say im partially Christain because:

1. i believe in God, All-loving (though while powerful, not omnipotent, which is one part which makes me not christian)
2. i do actually follow the 10 commandments willingly and devoutedly to the best of my abilities.
3. if i were to choose a full religion it would be christian

your words not mine. you said that they may not all be wrong. I only corrected you. theres no argument. Someones wrong and thats that. they may not all perish but someones mandates and codes and what nt were never needed and were made up. Unless of course your gonna tell me when I die ill see,alla,GOD,buddah,maby jesus, and a slew of others?????

actually, if you consider it, every God in the entire history of religion is the same God, merely with different names. with polytheism, there is the father of the Gods, and below him the lesser Gods which could be compared to the heirarchy of archangels.

You ever hear the term what is evil to you is good to me and vise versa???
you claim christian and all the others are all good religions but you dont know. your not the all knowing fang (that sounds kinda kewl). Therefore you only have your man made perception of what is just and unjust.

indeed in one term there is no such thing as good and bad. yes man could have made right and wrong, or they could have learned it from God. however there does seem to be a built in moral code which each person in their right mind follows. this could have been resulting from cenuries of forced christian devotion or this could be instinctual. one proves its man, one could prove it is God or nature. Ethics is perhaps the most difficult topics in philosophy, especially when it comes down to the term there is no right and wrong.

If what you say is true what would be the need of converting people to your faith???? *Come to my faith cause we have a big screen ^_^. Seems are teachings will end us in the exact same place as each other ^_^) Not

well simple, not everyone believes what my mum, and perhaps i do. Christians believe they are the ones in Gods favour, same with most other religions. if they did believe the same as us then yes there would be no need. but they dont so they try to convert people in good intentions, even though the other may think otherwise. im not trying to convert anyone im pro-choice for all things until it gets down to causing suffering.

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 12:52 PM

That's one type of Satanism, usually followed by the ones who want to shock people and the ones who are doing it because they're evil.

These are the Satanists we hear the most about, because they're either celebrities (such as Marilyn Manson), or they've committed crimes (such as the animal mutilations we used to hear about all the time).

This is the general idea of the official Church of Satan, which was formed by those who believed in Satan as a spirit of individualism.

The Satanists who end up committing crimes do not usually join the Church of Satan. They tend to create lesser cults of their own, and these cults are not recognized by the Church of Satan.

In fact, all the known cases of Satanic crimes are linked to these lesser cults rather than to the Church of Satan.

Of course, mistaken ideas about the Church of Satan do occasionally lead people that are just interested in shocking others to join the actual Church.

lolz im guessing your just here to be the in detail man ^_~
elaborating further on the story as the plot thickens!!!

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 01:11 PM

hey like i said i believe in god but my idea of the afterlife is different. what i said was only brief. a bit more detail is each soul has lived lives (choice re-incarnation) and when they return to the spirit form all their past life memories return and they can learn and reflect from their most recent life, then when they are ready be reborn once more. of course, this is only one of my ideas, i have a couple which work somewhat along the same lines but i only think of the ideas, its not entirely settled 100%

Still ideas of your belief. nothing really to comment. You just posted some in depth details -_-

while i think some of the things God said in the old testament is good, such as the 10 commandments, i believe that if this is the true word of God, then the parts of good were correct, but authorities could have corrupted the original copies to make God seem vengeful upon those who didn't believe. but then, i would need an untainted copy of the bible to prove that it is the word of God and that God is absolutely good.

i say im partially Christain because:

1. i believe in God, All-loving (though while powerful, not omnipotent, which is one part which makes me not christian)
2. i do actually follow the 10 commandments willingly and devoutedly to the best of my abilities.
3. if i were to choose a full religion it would be christian

and you still proving the point. Your not part christian. This isent a nationality. you cant be made half buddah and 1/2 chrstian and catholic with a pinch of satanist. It dosent work that way. you must have missed revelatons or something. Or the part where you ripped the most important of the christians view of god away from him. hes supposed to be omnipotent or else you just have a man who is falliable and therefore is not worthy of being called a god. Hed just be a giant.
Grim stick with your idealogy and life life with it. Your obviously not made to follow (meaning throwing your preconcepted ideas into the garbage bin and picking up someone elses) another religion. You only nit pick. Take what you like and say you dont like this or that. your still a hypocrite ^_~

actually, if you consider it, every God in the entire history of religion is the same God, merely with different names. with polytheism, there is the father of the Gods, and below him the lesser Gods which could be compared to the heirarchy of archangels.

Ugh your logic befuttles me. Think about what you just said and think of all the different religions. Your as bad as an old man who dosent want to convert from an already dead religion.
Because you broadened the horizon im only choosing one.
In norse mythology the gods waged war on one another. this is obviously retarded. In other religions the gods co-exist with one another.
You put too much faith in religions. Pick one and stick with it. Or choose none.

indeed in one term there is no such thing as good and bad. yes man could have made right and wrong, or they could have learned it from God. however there does seem to be a built in moral code which each person in their right mind follows. this could have been resulting from cenuries of forced christian devotion or this could be instinctual. one proves its man, one could prove it is God or nature. Ethics is perhaps the most difficult topics in philosophy, especially when it comes down to the term there is no right and wrong.

lets call it dna. Its in the code to know right from wrong or at least have a conception of right form wrong. there are so many theories that i really dont wanna even go here.
the idea of right and wrong as defined by humans is defifined by humans. gods definition (aka the bible) are in the bible. read exodus and leviticus and tell me what YOU think of the old laws of god. The system of right and worng today is defined by humans with the christian bases being the root of it all. but all of that is being toppled over with new rulings and different laws being mandated into the court rooms.

well simple, not everyone believes what my mum, and perhaps i do. Christians believe they are the ones in Gods favour, same with most other religions. if they did believe the same as us then yes there would be no need. but they dont so they try to convert people in good intentions, even though the other may think otherwise. im not trying to convert anyone im pro-choice for all things until it gets down to causing suffering.

you sound like a very confused person. You ever hear of a religion called the baha faith. I suggest you look it up and join it. there basically religious hippies who believe that all ways lead to GOD and that all prophets of mainstream religion were sent by GOD to deliveer a message. that of course worked but not as well as GOD planned because there not united at all. =/

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 01:39 PM

and you still proving the point. Your not part christian. This isent a nationality. you cant be made half buddah and 1/2 chrstian and catholic with a pinch of satanist. It dosent work that way. you must have missed revelatons or something. Or the part where you ripped the most important of the christians view of god away from him. hes supposed to be omnipotent or else you just have a man who is falliable and therefore is not worthy of being called a god. Hed just be a giant.

now my issue is this: if he is omnipotent then why did he go through the whole process of creating the universe over 6 days and then need to rest? in our time, why 14 billion years? if his power in this realm was infinite he could of just made everything at once. i didnt mean he wasnt immortal or anything like that, but what i think is either his power is limited in the physical realm for either his own choice or just cant, or the alternative is his power can only work over time and through manipulation of the universe. both would remove the fact he is 100% omnipotent, aside from through his own choice, thus he still is incredably powerful but is limited himself.

Ugh your logic befuttles me. Think about what you just said and think of all the different religions. Your as bad as an old man who dosent want to convert from an already dead religion.
Because you broadened the horizon im only choosing one.
In norse mythology the gods waged war on one another. this is obviously retarded. In other religions the gods co-exist with one another.
You put too much faith in religions. Pick one and stick with it. Or choose none.

hey wasn't lucifer an archangel who rebeled against God? even in mainstream monotheism there is war in the heavens

the idea of right and wrong as defined by humans is defifined by humans. gods definition (aka the bible) are in the bible. read exodus and leviticus and tell me what YOU think of the old laws of god. The system of right and worng today is defined by humans with the christian bases being the root of it all. but all of that is being toppled over with new rulings and different laws being mandated into the court rooms.

will do then

you sound like a very confused person. You ever hear of a religion called the baha faith. I suggest you look it up and join it. there basically religious hippies who believe that all ways lead to GOD and that all prophets of mainstream religion were sent by GOD to deliveer a message. that of course worked but not as well as GOD planned because there not united at all. =/

well it does make sense and it seems like a good observation. in the old times it would have been rejected because of religious intoleance, and it would be more accepted now except for the uprising of athiets and the remaining bias of religion. it could be true, but uniting all the religions is extremely difficult

andd maybe i am confused, or am i just confused today? im confused about this :(

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 01:45 PM

now my issue is this: if he is omnipotent then why did he go through the whole process of creating the universe over 6 days and then need to rest? in our time, why 14 billion years? if his power in this realm was infinite he could of just made everything at once. i didnt mean he wasnt immortal or anything like that, but what i think is either his power is limited in the physical realm for either his own choice or just cant, or the alternative is his power can only work over time and through manipulation of the universe. both would remove the fact he is 100% omnipotent, aside from through his own choice, thus he still is incredably powerful but is limited himself.

Ill leave with this.
According to the bible god is omnipetent. meaning he knows it all. we only see the here and now. But what if he (the painter) sees the whole picture while we the people(aka brush strokes) only see strokes of paint??? You have no idea what the big picture may be and thats why christian religion lives on today.
You have no idea whats gonna happen in the end.
And that is also why it fails.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 02:08 PM

Ill leave with this.
According to the bible god is omnipetent. meaning he knows it all. we only see the here and now. But what if he (the painter) sees the whole picture while we the people(aka brush strokes) only see strokes of paint??? You have no idea what the big picture may be and thats why christian religion lives on today.
You have no idea whats gonna happen in the end.
And that is also why it fails.

i see, but i still dont see the power to do anything, it just seems to be emphasising my point of manipulating the universe over time, as an artist paints over time

darkarcher

10-28-2009, 02:41 PM

I feel that I should say something here, but since this has become a bad grammar orgy, I have no idea where to start. I don't even know what anyone is talking about anymore.

I'm with killshot. As much as I'd like to add input, there's hardly any structure in the conversation at the moment.

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 03:06 PM

I'm with killshot. As much as I'd like to add input, there's hardly any structure in the conversation at the moment.

What can we do to add coherence to the topic?

lolz I'm guessing you're just here to be the in detail man ^_~
elaborating further on the story as the plot thickens!!!

I want to make sure everything is clear.

uniting all the religions is extremely difficult

This is true.

Now my issue is this: if he is omnipotent then why did he go through the whole process of creating the universe over 6 days and then need to rest? In our time, why 14 billion years? If his power in this realm was infinite he could of just made everything at once. I didnt mean he wasn't immortal or anything like that, but what I think is either his power is limited in the physical realm for either his own choice or just can't, or the alternative is his power can only work over time and through manipulation of the universe. Both would remove the fact he is 100% omnipotent, aside from through his own choice, thus he still is incredably powerful but is limited himself.According to the bible, god knows it all. We only see the here and now. But what if he (the painter) sees the whole picture while we the people (aka brush strokes) only see strokes of paint?

I agree with the concept of God as a painter.

In Physics of the Impossible, I read about quantum retrocausality and how the movement of a single particle-wave moving backwards and forwards through time-space could have created everything with which we interact and think exists.

If God exists, this single particle-wave could be the paintbrush of our universe, and possibly others.

Going for a blast into the real past (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/292378_timeguy15.html)

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 03:16 PM

Going for a blast into the real past (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/292378_timeguy15.html)

interesting indeed, at least this guy seems to be going to attempt true time travel, just hope it does not cause anything destructive to happen

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 03:18 PM

It's the end of the 'verse as we know it, and I feel fine

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 03:24 PM

It's the end of the 'verse as we know it, and I feel fine

actually the chorus but whatever :P

Cocyta

10-28-2009, 03:31 PM

heheheh

"It's the End of the 'Verse As We Know It (and I Feel Fine)", a Firefly filk of R.E.M.'s "It's the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m4nLc-trRM)

Ishikawa Oshro

10-28-2009, 04:08 PM

just start where sally and fared left off lolz.
Grim and I happened to branch off

Fat1Fared

10-28-2009, 05:16 PM

I feel that I should say something here, but since this has become a bad grammar orgy, I have no idea where to start. I don't even know what anyone is talking about anymore.

I'm, sorry normally I like your points killshot, but this is just plain self-indulgence mate. So what, if not everyone has same level of grammatical skill as you, this doesn't mean you should look down on them and say there points ain't worth debating from self made high ground. Both me and Grim have dyslexia, so what, we try not to let it handicap us, but it does, this doesn't mean we need poeple to rub our face in it or that our points ain't valid, and if you still feel this is conversation is under your grand level of notice, then just don't comment, rather insulting those involved. This comment doesn't add any relevance to our debate here, in fact, it is closer to just adding a peice of tolling spam (not quite there, as more superciliousness, than tolling but sure you understand my point)

Atheism isn't quite the same as agnosticism. An atheist does not believe there is a god or gods. Agnostics either say there's no proof either way, or that they just don't know.

Atheism is certain. Agnosticism is not certain.

That is kind of what I said O_o, the point I was making is that many who call themselves Atheists would actually be considered agnostic in truth, because though their opinion is that there is no god, they know cannot prove it, so wouldn't call it fact or real answer

I would be atheist, because in answer to the you can't not prove comment, I say you cannot prove it ether and reason I cannot disprove it, is because cannot actually test something which isn't there and this is also why you cannot prove it, meaning this point in itself, (to me) removes god

Perhaps the problem is the belief that god or the gods are loving.

Even if god or gods exist, that does not mean that he/she/it/they care about us, or that they are even aware of us.

Now, I think the mistake you make here is that you believe this is what I believe god is, I don't even believe in god, so I have no thoughts on what he is like tech, however we are told he is loving god and this conflicting problem for church in many areas they face where god ether seems unfair or just doesn't give fig ether way, which comes off as unloving and this is why we get twisted answers to it

Some ancient cultures believed that humanity was created to be the slaves of the gods.

indeed and this would be fair point, however it isn't in line to god we are talking about, though does rise interesting point

which I will look at better tomorrow, as off out now

HolyShadow

10-28-2009, 06:26 PM

I would be atheist, because in answer to the you can't not prove comment, I say you cannot prove it ether and reason I cannot disprove it, is because cannot actually test something which isn't there and this is also why you cannot prove it, meaning this point in itself, (to me) removes god

Unless God is attempting to humble you by disallowing you from proving His existence. In which case, your theory is flawed. Can you disprove this? Not really. In fact, I'd say it's proven given this situation. It all depends on whether you want to believe or not. Proof is meaningless and trying to prove or disprove God is not only pointless, but also doesn't allow for any type of logic to change this fact.

You can either guess and say, "You can't prove something that isn't there" or you can say, "The thing that I can't see there doesn't want to be found yet."

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 06:30 PM

i think it would be funny if when everyone finally gave up and all became athiests God suddenly appeared in front of everyone. that would be so funny i think

killshot

10-28-2009, 07:07 PM

I'm, sorry normally I like your points killshot, but this is just plain self-indulgence mate. So what, if not everyone has same level of grammatical skill as you, this doesn't mean you should look down on them and say there points ain't worth debating from self made high ground. Both me and Grim have dyslexia, so what, we try not to let it handicap us, but it does, this doesn't mean we need poeple to rub our face in it or that our points ain't valid, and if you still feel this is conversation is under your grand level of notice, then just don't comment, rather insulting those involved. This comment doesn't add any relevance to our debate here, in fact, it is closer to just adding a peice of tolling spam (not quite there, as more superciliousness, than tolling but sure you understand my point)

I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I am just pointing out that I would like to join the conversation, but I can't understand what exactly is being argued. I'm sorry if I insulted you, but I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.

i think it would be funny if when everyone finally gave up and all became athiests God suddenly appeared in front of everyone. that would be so funny i think

This really wouldn't change anything. Even if God showed himself, the only difference would be that atheists would all become theists. In fact, the term theist would become obsolete since God would be a fact and not something to believe or disbelieve. Even if God showed up, no one would know his will unless he told us and life would continue as normal. Everyone would assume the God in front of them is the God that they believe in (or believed in if we follow your scenario) and religion would continue unchanged.

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 07:13 PM

i wasnt really meaning it for analysis i just think it would be funny in an ironic way you know :/

Fat1Fared

10-28-2009, 07:44 PM

Unless God is attempting to humble you by disallowing you from proving His existence. In which case, your theory is flawed. Can you disprove this? Not really. In fact, I'd say it's proven given this situation. It all depends on whether you want to believe or not. Proof is meaningless and trying to prove or disprove God is not only pointless, but also doesn't allow for any type of logic to change this fact.

You can either guess and say, "You can't prove something that isn't there" or you can say, "The thing that I can't see there doesn't want to be found yet."

Yer, thats what is god doing sure, he is hidding, because well...errr....sure there is great reason for him to do this <treats this with same level of acceptance, gives little cousin when she tells him fairy in garden>
=More self vindication and twisted reasoning without any real reason or logic to it, to make idea of god acceptable

Fact is you can't actually test something which isn't there as nothing to test and so this is why cannot prove or disprove god, making this flawed reasoning to believe in something at very best and saying proof is meaningless is silly as well, I mean if don't want to actually believe in real proved things and instead just believe in something which have no actual reason to believe in, why not just give up all together and believe in anything, like said to you before, you don't believe in Flying Spettelli monster or fire breathing dragons, because all you know, tells you, there nothing there to believe in , so what makes god anymore believable? (aspecially when the actual idea behind him is lot less understandable than first 2)

I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I am just pointing out that I would like to join the conversation, but I can't understand what exactly is being argued. I'm sorry if I insulted you, but I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.

Sorry, got little defensive there, don't like grammar insults at best of times (go figure) and at time, felt you came off little, condescendingly, and were saying that our ideas were pointless, which is another thing don't like, know probably didn't mean to come off this way ^_^ (even when see something as wrong, I at lest retort it ^_^)

This really wouldn't change anything. Even if God showed himself, the only difference would be that atheists would all become theists. In fact, the term theist would become obsolete since God would be a fact and not something to believe or disbelieve. Even if God showed up, no one would know his will unless he told us and life would continue as normal. Everyone would assume the God in front of them is the God that they believe in (or believed in if we follow your scenario) and religion would continue unchanged.

Back to agreeing with you and lets face it, most would be like me say, that isn't a god anyway, just someone saying their god (to me, the idea of god is actually impossible, in itself)

grimfang999

10-28-2009, 08:00 PM

(to me, the idea of god is actually impossible, in itself)

my question is who or what created the universe, it could not have created itself, but then the answer back would be who or what created God. however i would just ask what is a proton shell made of and what is that made of. both could go on forever or both could eventually stop.

Gods power, as a truely omnipotent being i agree is unbelievable, which is why i say his power is not unlimited in the physical realm. this then could explain why he did not spontaniously create everything and perhaps, but to a lesser extent, why he wont appear. there could be something blocking him or he is simply not strong enough to withstand a physical form aside through the process of reincarnation, which if it worked as normal would mean he couldnt remember who he was until the point of his death, and even if he could he wouldnt be able to prove it.

brief: God is an Incredably powerful spirit but not omnipotent. he might manipulating the universes course but because of his limited power may not be strong enough to withstand the universe and to form an image to prove he is there.

HolyShadow

10-28-2009, 08:10 PM

Actually, I do believe in flying spaghetti monsters. I've dreamt of them before, and my dreams come true.

Cocyta

10-29-2009, 06:50 AM

That is kind of what I said O_o, the point I was making is that many who call themselves Atheists would actually be considered agnostic in truth, because though their opinion is that there is no god, they know cannot prove it, so wouldn't call it fact or real answer

That's OK, I guess I didn't completely understanding where you going with that statement.

I would be atheist, because in answer to the you can't not prove comment, I say you cannot prove it ether and reason I cannot disprove it, is because cannot actually test something which isn't there and this is also why you cannot prove it, meaning this point in itself, (to me) removes godUnless God is attempting to humble you by disallowing you from proving His existence. In which case, your theory is flawed. Can you disprove this? Not really. In fact, I'd say it's proven given this situation. It all depends on whether you want to believe or not. Proof is meaningless and trying to prove or disprove God is not only pointless, but also doesn't allow for any type of logic to change this fact.

You can either guess and say, "You can't prove something that isn't there" or you can say, "The thing that I can't see there doesn't want to be found yet."Fact is you can't actually test something which isn't there as nothing to test and so this is why cannot prove or disprove god, making this flawed reasoning to believe in something at very best and saying proof is meaningless is silly as well, I mean if don't want to actually believe in real proved things and instead just believe in something which have no actual reason to believe in, why not just give up all together and believe in anything, like said to you before, you don't believe in Flying Spaghetti monster or fire breathing dragons, because all you know, tells you, there nothing there to believe in , so what makes god anymore believable? (especially when the actual idea behind him is lot less understandable than first 2)

We don't know how to prove whether or not God exists. Just because we don't know how to prove something does not mean that something does or does not exist. The question simply remains unanswered.

My question is who or what created the universe, it could not have created itself, but then the answer back would be who or what created God. However, I would just ask what is a proton shell made of and what is that made of - both could go on forever or both could eventually stop.

God's power, as a truly omnipotent being I agree is unbelievable, which is why I say His power is not unlimited in the physical realm. This then could explain why he did not spontaneously create everything and perhaps, but to a lesser extent, why He won't appear. There could be something blocking him or he is simply not strong enough to withstand a physical form aside through the process of reincarnation, which if it worked as normal would mean he couldn't remember who he was until the point of his death, and even if he could he wouldn't be able to prove it.

brief: God is an incredibly powerful spirit but not omnipotent. he might manipulating the universe's course, but because of His limited power may not be strong enough to withstand the universe and to form an image to prove He is there.

Or, on the flip-side, the universe might not be able to withstand having God within it.

I think it would be funny if when everyone finally gave up and all became atheists God suddenly appeared in front of everyone.

That would be interesting. Some people may want proof at first, while others might jump right on board (after all, that's what some cult leaders do). There would also be people (like Fat1Fared said) who would continue to disbelieve in the existence of God.

Fat1Fared

10-29-2009, 12:13 PM

my question is who or what created the universe, it could not have created itself, but then the answer back would be who or what created God. however i would just ask what is a proton shell made of and what is that made of. both could go on forever or both could eventually stop.

Gods power, as a truely omnipotent being i agree is unbelievable, which is why i say his power is not unlimited in the physical realm. this then could explain why he did not spontaniously create everything and perhaps, but to a lesser extent, why he wont appear. there could be something blocking him or he is simply not strong enough to withstand a physical form aside through the process of reincarnation, which if it worked as normal would mean he couldnt remember who he was until the point of his death, and even if he could he wouldnt be able to prove it.

brief: God is an Incredably powerful spirit but not omnipotent. he might manipulating the universes course but because of his limited power may not be strong enough to withstand the universe and to form an image to prove he is there.

So god made a universe he cannot control, he MADE something he cannot actually have any EFFECT on, is what telling me

How and why, did he make it this way? (more silly theories to try and justife god)

We don't know how to prove whether or not God exists. Just because we don't know how to prove something does not mean that something does or does not exist. The question simply remains unanswered.

No, it is simple fact there is nothing there to test (if there was something there, which didn't really understand, that would be different, but nothing there, means nothing there) in same way you cannot test a afirbe;wbhr;ewt, because not actual thing there,

it is something its own believers say cannot effect world or be in world with us, so what chance it stand,

That would be interesting. Some people may want proof at first, while others might jump right on board (after all, that's what some cult leaders do). There would also be people (like Fat1Fared said) who would continue to disbelieve in the existence of God.

Pretty much sums up what would happen, though to be honest, if he still hasn't shown up yet, I wouldn't hold your breath lol (he may not even be able too, as though he can create existence, he now cannot enter it, which in my opinion means that not only is he no longer not worth worshiping, he is actually pretty lame thing in general, sorry, just amuses me)