Religion...

[Xanadu]

The religion topic

I am not religious in the slightest. To explain my haphazard beliefs I "created" my own religion, but it is quite the opposite where it does not want followers lol (followers usually suck)
basically I worship the sun, because as a young child I saw it as a thing humans needed to live (it gives us everything we need to be alive) and most importantly I can see it.
That was a huge factor for me, though i don't pray to the sun-I pray to Joe Pesci, he looks like a guy who can get things done.
My religion has a bible, (a fantasy story I wrote when i was 14) no name and no desire to promote itself beyond this.
I have not decided on a title for myself lol

[killshot]

Yeah, I like George Carlin too.

[Xanadu]

:D I do worship the sun and enjoy Joe Pesci's acting

[Ohara]

I'm Christian - I believe in God and Jesus, that is - but I don't want my life to be run or influenced by religion. I don't go to Church and don't want to.

[MrsSallyBakura]

What's wrong with church?

I know people have bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that all churches are bad.

[HolyShadow]

What's wrong with church?

I know people have bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that all churches are bad.
It's really long and boring, not to be rude or disrespect religion in any way. :/

[Xanadu]

some want you to give them a part of your income

they're really "preachy"
I don't live for preachy, I live for other things, if I could see this god everyone is talking about, i'd be inclined to go to church
but I can't, so i simply gain words of wisdom threw a fantasy novel
when you make your own rules everything is easier, and who says I can't? a lot of ordinary humans before me did...

[MrsSallyBakura]

It's really long and boring, not to be rude or disrespect religion in any way. :/

An hour really isn't that long...

Although then again some churches go on for longer.

[HolyShadow]

An hour really isn't that long...

Although then again some churches go on for longer.
I went to a church that went on for 2.5 hours. Kinda turns you off when you're 11 and just wanna play video games on the weekends.

[Xanadu]

An hour really isn't that long...

Although then again some churches go on for longer.


long enough for unbelievers

[MrsSallyBakura]

long enough for unbelievers

Realize that I was talking to someone who does believe. I wouldn't expect a non-believer to go to church.

[Xanadu]

there was a time I believed...and went to church

almost seems like a forgotten memory now

[HolyShadow]

there was a time I believed...and went to church

almost seems like a forgotten memory now
Listen up. You're not part of a religion. You're part of a cult involving only you. You're starting to annoy me here for one reason.

There is one God.

That's all. Even if there's religions left and right, most current ones revolve around one God above all others. This basically means, to me, that all religions that are monotheistic have the same God, but different interpretations of Him. Simultaneously, even religions that have many gods refer to this one God in that God is actually all of those Gods as one.

If you prefer, there are multiple Gods, and the same thing is true. All religions refer to these multiple Gods.

There's no, "My religion is right" because all of them are wrong.

On another note, out of all the times God has smote people, do you think that he might've done so for a reason? Such as making the people around that young child dying learning to raise their children properly and be more careful, or to make sure we don't immerse ourselves in sin if a certain city or two are destroyed overnight?

Anyway, the real reason you annoy me is because you made your own religion with no intent on sharing it with others. Whether your sun God is likely to be worshiped by others in this day and age is another concern, but honestly, it's just a ball of helium. Science has explained it. It's not a sentient being. It's worth thanks, but we shouldn't worship it. It won't comprehend our worshiping because such a thing is literally impossible. Therefore, we're making gestures to something we KNOW doesn't understand and therefore doesn't care. An appeal in real religions and not some fantasy one is that there might be a God out there that understands and thanks our gestures.

If you really think that there's no God, and you should worship a ball of helium, then just forego the worshiping and find a better use of your time, such as... being atheistic.

I apologize if I offended you in any way, but people that think they can create a religion the way you did just rub me the wrong way. I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable or anything, and don't really want to be mean at all.

[Serial Ulyssicider]

Hmmmmm.... SR, this is the second time (that I've noticed) that you have totally smashed Xanadu's comment in a serious discussion.
My scottish-senses are tingling...
Just posting to agree with your above point :)
Plus, you forgot to mention Bhuddism, which is, perhaps, the purest religion, simply because it is a way of life in the pursuit of attaining a goal that someone else hs already achieved. So, it is basically religion without the gods.
Its like coke syrup (bad example, but lets run with it...), it is essentially the very base of what religion is (or what it has turned into in this modern world) minus all of the carbonated water, because the existance of the syrup remains constant throughout all major religions, sometimes in varying amounts, but it is still there: that goal to strive to be the best human being possible.
Each religion has its set of tennants or commandents for humanity to live by, yet they have fallen by the wayside, the offspill of the Burger King dispenser, so that the plastic-cup-with-novelty-straw of religion no longer has its fair share of syrup, so it no longer has its full flavour, it is merely carbonated water with instances of syrup coming through to justify the purchase, unlike Bhuddism, which is a 'religion' based on the syrup, and the syrup alone.
So, despite having no god, only an idol, surely Bhuddism is the purest religion out there, due to the fact that it is impossible for a follower (not believer) of Bhuddism to argue his or her beliefs superiority?
:)

[HolyShadow]

Hmmmmm.... SR, this is the second time (that I've noticed) that you have totally smashed Xanadu's comment in a serious discussion.
My scottish-senses are tingling...
Just posting to agree with your above point :)
Plus, you forgot to mention Bhuddism, which is, perhaps, the purest religion, simply because it is a way of life in the pursuit of attaining a goal that someone else hs already achieved. So, it is basically religion without the gods.
Its like coke syrup (bad example, but lets run with it...), it is essentially the very base of what religion is (or what it has turned into in this modern world) minus all of the carbonated water, because the existance of the syrup remains constant throughout all major religions, sometimes in varying amounts, but it is still there: that goal to strive to be the best human being possible.
Each religion has its set of tennants or commandents for humanity to live by, yet they have fallen by the wayside, the offspill of the Burger King dispenser, so that the plastic-cup-with-novelty-straw of religion no longer has its fair share of syrup, so it no longer has its full flavour, it is merely carbonated water with instances of syrup coming through to justify the purchase, unlike Bhuddism, which is a 'religion' based on the syrup, and the syrup alone.
So, despite having no god, only an idol, surely Bhuddism is the purest religion out there, due to the fact that it is impossible for a follower (not believer) of Bhuddism to argue his or her beliefs superiority?
:)
I don't really count buddhism as a Religion. I count it more as a wonderful way of life, honestly. Not to offend anyone.

[Serial Ulyssicider]

I don't really count buddhism as a Religion. I count it more as a wonderful way of life, honestly. Not to offend anyone.

Exactly!
Religion without the gods!
Therefore: a wonderful way of life.

[Fat1Fared]

Listen up. You're not part of a religion. You're part of a cult involving only you. You're starting to annoy me here for one reason.

There is one God.

That's all. Even if there's religions left and right, most current ones revolve around one God above all others. This basically means, to me, that all religions that are monotheistic have the same God, but different interpretations of Him. Simultaneously, even religions that have many gods refer to this one God in that God is actually all of those Gods as one.

If you prefer, there are multiple Gods, and the same thing is true. All religions refer to these multiple Gods.

There's no, "My religion is right" because all of them are wrong.

On another note, out of all the times God has smote people, do you think that he might've done so for a reason? Such as making the people around that young child dying learning to raise their children properly and be more careful, or to make sure we don't immerse ourselves in sin if a certain city or two are destroyed overnight?

Anyway, the real reason you annoy me is because you made your own religion with no intent on sharing it with others. Whether your sun God is likely to be worshiped by others in this day and age is another concern, but honestly, it's just a ball of helium. Science has explained it. It's not a sentient being. It's worth thanks, but we shouldn't worship it. It won't comprehend our worshiping because such a thing is literally impossible. Therefore, we're making gestures to something we KNOW doesn't understand and therefore doesn't care. An appeal in real religions and not some fantasy one is that there might be a God out there that understands and thanks our gestures.

If you really think that there's no God, and you should worship a ball of helium, then just forego the worshiping and find a better use of your time, such as... being atheistic.

I apologize if I offended you in any way, but people that think they can create a religion the way you did just rub me the wrong way. I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable or anything, and don't really want to be mean at all.

:objection: (sorry just wanted to do that lol)

-Though, you said god smote people for reason, but for this to valid, then this is saying god is right on everything, but that was true, then surely existence, no longer matters, as key to existence is findding own way in world. Also this is saying god has set of unchangable rules, but who can actually say, his own beleifs don't change?

-Also, this is going on belief that, there is a god of uiltmate power, but what if isn't, I mean what is it, that makes gods idea's on life more valid than say, my own?
=And if we follow this train of thought, then the thing which does the smoting, (no matter how much smarter or stronger it is than one smoted,) is still only living by its own beliefs, therefore, it has no more or no less right to them or force them on others, than the ones it is smoting:-In short, it is no better than self-rightous killers such as fundermentalist torrorist

-As for second point, well that is how most religions came about, only difference is, this person doesn't want followers, just wants to worship the world in his own way.
=Now I personally understand worshipping sun, about as much as I understand idea of worshipping anything, very little. But if we think it is valid to worship something which has no actaul existence on physical plain and is merely something we have to believe is there, then why is that in any way, better than worshipping the sun, which at lest is pyhiscal things and who says it has no senitent thought, we only believe it hasn't, but to me, the chances of sun being senitent are no less likely, than chances of a god being real! (Also worship of sun, was something many religions of past did, before Christians told them not and is actually now rising in populartily again as people feel religions such as christainity...etc fail them and their needs)

(A COMPLETEY GARBAGE RELIGION)

Another example, where just because you believe something else, you cast off another persons beleif, even though no more evidence for own beleif

[Ishikawa Oshro]

Wow I figured it would eventually all come down to religion one day or another and the day has finally come.

To be blunt and honest. Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. (according to dictionary.com)To whomever decided to make the sun their religion ima just say it now. That is a complete waste of time.

The whole idea of a religion s to answer the mysterys of the universe itself. Thats why we have science also. To try and figure out where we came froma nd what it is were supposed to do. Some believe the big bang theory because they dont really want to look anything else up and wish to just run with the general populas. Some run to scientology (A COMPLETEY GARBAGE RELIGION) because it only asks for their money in order to have a better life in the afterlife and some other garbage.

All of you can cut down on whatever religion you like. But in the end you will all sooner or later come to the conclusion that our world and us ourselves were made by someone or something. Wether you believe were all just some sims game or something higher in power made us for some reason.

But sooner opr later in your lives the question where we all came from will float past your minds and thats where the search for religion comes in. Or else you can run to science. Youll need a way to explain why things happen. Almost everyone questions this in some time in their lives.

And to further this topic. Its not just the bible. It was called religion lolz.
So lets try to be open minded about the topic itself.

[Xanadu]

Listen up. You're not part of a religion. You're part of a cult involving only you. You're starting to annoy me here for one reason.

There is one God.

That's all. Even if there's religions left and right, most current ones revolve around one God above all others. This basically means, to me, that all religions that are monotheistic have the same God, but different interpretations of Him. Simultaneously, even religions that have many gods refer to this one God in that God is actually all of those Gods as one.

If you prefer, there are multiple Gods, and the same thing is true. All religions refer to these multiple Gods.

There's no, "My religion is right" because all of them are wrong.

On another note, out of all the times God has smote people, do you think that he might've done so for a reason? Such as making the people around that young child dying learning to raise their children properly and be more careful, or to make sure we don't immerse ourselves in sin if a certain city or two are destroyed overnight?

Anyway, the real reason you annoy me is because you made your own religion with no intent on sharing it with others. Whether your sun God is likely to be worshiped by others in this day and age is another concern, but honestly, it's just a ball of helium. Science has explained it. It's not a sentient being. It's worth thanks, but we shouldn't worship it. It won't comprehend our worshiping because such a thing is literally impossible. Therefore, we're making gestures to something we KNOW doesn't understand and therefore doesn't care. An appeal in real religions and not some fantasy one is that there might be a God out there that understands and thanks our gestures.

If you really think that there's no God, and you should worship a ball of helium, then just forego the worshiping and find a better use of your time, such as... being atheistic.

I apologize if I offended you in any way, but people that think they can create a religion the way you did just rub me the wrong way. I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable or anything, and don't really want to be mean at all.

a cult wants money-even if i decided to "share" my insights, I wouldn't want any money, then I would be no better then the religions I distanced myself from, I want nothing for them, nor did any of the people who originally started it, the people down the line got greedy. Your annoyed because I have a strange alternate view and I am not afraid to say what I believe and refuse to share it with anyone.
I don't pray to the sun, its not alive (in a sentient sense) it has a life, but its not really alive, the earth is alive, but not sentient. I don't thank the sun after every meal, nor do i make a "church of the sun"
I revere the sun as the closest thing to a creator and life giver we have, nothing can exist without it. None of the planets, or any life known and unknown in our solar system-beyond there is obviously no answers.
I am not going to blindly worship something who's existence we can't even prove .

And Ishikawa Oshro, making the sun a god is the most logical thing-it keeps us alive, and we can see it. Seeing something really helps in the whole worship process...

[Ishikawa Oshro]

Sigh
Making the sun a GOD is illogical lolz.
Why just worship our sun then. There plenty more out there. The sun as stated above cares nothing for you. The sun did not create you. The sun will not create any humans. The sun is a big ball of GAS.

The sun will one day blow up caring not if you love it or worship it. It feels no way for you. It will not save you. It will not die for you but hope to take you down with it.

The sun is only something that helps keep you alive. Without the trees you couldent breathe. Without gravity and physics the sun wouldent be able to keep the trees alive which keep us alive.

The world has a system in which it works to kee everything balanced. The sun is a powerull force in this system but is in no way a the top deciding factor in how we continue to live.

And to let ya know just a bit more about your GOD its dying. Yes thats right. Its burning itself out as we speak. Your GOD is nothing more than a bomb that is taking FOREVER to blow up =/

One day millions of years from now your GOD will take vengance on all those who would not worship him. And he will even kill thos who worshipped him because his anger cannot be kindled. He will most likely take out the majority of our solar system also.

In essence your GOD is a jerk >.>

[Xanadu]

my "god" is a giant ball of explosions and molten fire. It has no mind, it doesn't feel-its just there and we leech off it. It doesn't know anything-but it keeps everything in balance, it lets life exist.
Everything dies
I could worship the earth, but someday it could take my life too, but there is no reason-its not going to kill me if I "sin" (there is no sins in nature worship-well maybe starting forest fires lol)
it won't say I am a bad nature worshiper, it will just be there-and be there long after I die and (literally) become a part of the earth
vengeance implies the sun thinks, it is not blowing up because its angry, its dying-and thats how a sun dies, everything dies. Some deaths are more cataclysmic then others

[killshot]

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the r?sum? of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

(Copyright 1999 by George Carlin.)

I'm not sure if everyone is in on the joke, but here is where the sun worship stuff came from.

[Xanadu]

not entirely I do worship the sun! And I did invent my own religion, 2 actually-but one was for a novel

I did have a bit of fun with my yammering

[HolyShadow]

:objection: (sorry just wanted to do that lol)

-Though, you said god smote people for reason, but for this to valid, then this is saying god is right on everything, but that was true, then surely existence, no longer matters, as key to existence is findding own way in world. Also this is saying god has set of unchangable rules, but who can actually say, his own beleifs don't change?

God can do anything. That includes skip around in time. Therefore, there's no way for us to determine how His beliefs will change, making this a waste of time.

-Also, this is going on belief that, there is a god of uiltmate power, but what if isn't, I mean what is it, that makes gods idea's on life more valid than say, my own?
=And if we follow this train of thought, then the thing which does the smoting, (no matter how much smarter or stronger it is than one smoted,) is still only living by its own beliefs, therefore, it has no more or no less right to them or force them on others, than the ones it is smoting:-In short, it is no better than self-rightous killers such as fundermentalist torrorist

Unless He knows the path that we're going down and is only looking out for us. He's like a Father and Satan is more like a mother. Father is there to make sure we do what needs to be done. These things aren't fun in the least, but they are GOOD for us. Satan is more like mommy; there simply to make us happy. Cheap stuff, like buying us that video game we want (Or steal it), or tell us that we can fuck anyone we want and they'll accept whether we're straight or gay. Father is a bit more conservative than mother and prefers we all be straight, but will still accept us despite his personal views on homosexuality as long as we respect Him. Or at least, that's how I view it.

He may not be perfect, but He knows everything.

-As for second point, well that is how most religions came about, only difference is, this person doesn't want followers, just wants to worship the world in his own way.
=Now I personally understand worshipping sun, about as much as I understand idea of worshipping anything, very little. But if we think it is valid to worship something which has no actaul existence on physical plain and is merely something we have to believe is there, then why is that in any way, better than worshipping the sun, which at lest is pyhiscal things and who says it has no senitent thought, we only believe it hasn't, but to me, the chances of sun being senitent are no less likely, than chances of a god being real! (Also worship of sun, was something many religions of past did, before Christians told them not and is actually now rising in populartily again as people feel religions such as christainity...etc fail them and their needs)


I'm going to go worship my penis. I mean, it's there. I can see it. I think I'll go participate in orgies. What's that? I have AIDS? I think I'll spread it to everyone! After all, it's a blessing! It makes mine different than everyone else's. I'm a chosen one!

See how that works?

Another example, where just because you believe something else, you cast off another persons beleif, even though no more evidence for own beleif
Like what you're doing? Show me the proof that there's no God. Real proof. Conclusive proof. I bet you can't.

Hypocrisy is present here, and I'm willing to admit that religion is full of contradictions, and humans are self-contradictory.

:objection::objection::objection::objection::objec tion:

Sorry, just wanted to do that.

my "god" is a giant ball of explosions and molten fire. It has no mind, it doesn't feel-its just there and we leech off it. It doesn't know anything-but it keeps everything in balance, it lets life exist.
Everything dies
I could worship the earth, but someday it could take my life too, but there is no reason-its not going to kill me if I "sin" (there is no sins in nature worship-well maybe starting forest fires lol)
it won't say I am a bad nature worshiper, it will just be there-and be there long after I die and (literally) become a part of the earth
vengeance implies the sun thinks, it is not blowing up because its angry, its dying-and thats how a sun dies, everything dies. Some deaths are more cataclysmic then others

The trees don't hate me. Even with the sun, without the trees, I wouldn't exist. Everything is connected. The sun is a tiny, tiny part of the whole line. Thank the Big Bang for creating the sun. Personally, I thank God for causing the Big Bang. God existed before the Big Bang because he's part of the spiritual realm, I believe.

My God created your 'god' to help life, for some reason. Maybe it was on accident. I have no clue. It's a bit of a cop-out to say that we can't comprehend His plan, but it's pretty much true. Maybe he has a plan, maybe he doesn't. There's honestly no way to determine that.

It's up to you whether to believe something logical, illogical, completely stupid, or nothing at all. I'm just trying to tell you as nicely as possible that the sun isn't the center of the universe.

[Xanadu]

Oh of course its not, its a tiny part of it all, but what am I supposed to do, worship the universe?
Just because I don't believe in your "god" doesn't give you the right to continuously slander my beliefs, I'll admit originally I was being silly (eg the George Carlin jokes), but I do worship the sun, the planet, and the outer "cosmos" but to condense it I worship the sun.
I have a bit of a query-if god loves everyone and is so caring-why in the hell do things like the holocaust, mass genocide, world wars, etc-why do stuff like that happen?
seems if he was all powerful and all loving-he'd do something, instead of let people get mass murdered like they do, either he doesn't care or he isn't there.
And if he wants us to "take care of ourselves" we'll he ought to step in because we can't.

If you don't like my beliefs, fine-as I said there is a reason I keep them to myself, but I don't care what you think of them-this was a light hearted topic, not a "attack Xanadu because he worships the sun" topic.
You think what you think, you seem not to really care to understand what I mean-just slander me because you don't like what I think.

[HolyShadow]

Oh of course its not, its a tiny part of it all, but what am I supposed to do, worship the universe?
Just because I don't believe in your "god" doesn't give you the right to continuously slander my beliefs, I'll admit originally I was being silly (eg the George Carlin jokes), but I do worship the sun, the planet, and the outer "cosmos" but to condense it I worship the sun.
I have a bit of a query-if god loves everyone and is so caring-why in the hell do things like the holocaust, mass genocide, world wars, etc-why do stuff like that happen?
seems if he was all powerful and all loving-he'd do something, instead of let people get mass murdered like they do, either he doesn't care or he isn't there.
And if he wants us to "take care of ourselves" we'll he ought to step in because we can't.

If you don't like my beliefs, fine-as I said there is a reason I keep them to myself, but I don't care what you think of them-this was a light hearted topic, not a "attack Xanadu because he worships the sun" topic.
You think what you think, you seem not to really care to understand what I mean-just slander me because you don't like what I think.
God made a deal with mankind not to interfere with our free will. It's by our own will that those things happened, and it's by our own will that we don't let him interfere with that.

We chose this, not him. No matter how much we beg, he can NEVER affect our free will. Humans caused this, not God. Humans are simple animals. Blaming God for the holocaust is in poor taste. The nazis caused it, and the nazis were human, so quite simply, God COULDN'T do anything about it. Now, the nazis lost that war. Maybe God was the reason we won?

And it's not slander. It's libel.

And actually read the rules. I can call your beliefs completely fucking retarded as long as I support that belief decently. I've done so. As long as I don't personally flame you, then I'm fine, and I've never called you stupid; just your beliefs. The point is that I'm allowed to do so.

If you wanted to make a light-hearted topic, then don't make a topic about religion. Religion is serious, and people have strong feelings about it. Don't try to make a joke of religion. It's in poor taste.

[Fat1Fared]

God made a deal with mankind not to interfere with our free will. It's by our own will that those things happened, and it's by our own will that we don't let him interfere with that.

We chose this, not him. No matter how much we beg, he can NEVER affect our free will. Humans caused this, not God. Humans are simple animals. Blaming God for the holocaust is in poor taste. The nazis caused it, and the nazis were human, so quite simply, God COULDN'T do anything about it. Now, the nazis lost that war. Maybe God was the reason we won?

And it's not slander. It's libel.

And actually read the rules. I can call your beliefs completely fucking retarded as long as I support that belief decently. I've done so. As long as I don't personally flame you, then I'm fine, and I've never called you stupid; just your beliefs. The point is that I'm allowed to do so.

If you wanted to make a light-hearted topic, then don't make a topic about religion. Religion is serious, and people have strong feelings about it. Don't try to make a joke of religion. It's in poor taste.

I seem to remember it being devil, which made that deal, when he challenged god, saying that no human would follow god, if where not forced too (we couldn't ask for it, as didn't have power:-catch 22, or something)

[Xanadu]

I made a joke about my religion-which I can do
and the rules don't say you can be a complete ass while saying i am wrong
your being an ass because you don"t like what I think, i hardly think the rules say you can do that, but we'll find out...

[HolyShadow]

I made a joke about my religion-which I can do
and the rules don't say you can be a complete ass while saying i am wrong
your being an ass because you don"t like what I think, i hardly think the rules say you can do that, but we'll find out...

This:

4) Fourth, we all know that using a past personal experience is common with debates. But likewise, so is criticizing those events. This criticism isn't necessarily a flame. Remember, a flame is a personal attack, and generally insulting another user. Not criticism.

I'm not insulting you. In fact, I've made it clear several times that I don't mean to personally insult you. Pretending I never said that will get us nowhere.

[Xanadu]

well i have expressed that I have been offended
(what would you say if i said "your beliefs and religion are a pile of crap and your dumber then a child to believe it") not very nice eh?!
because saying someone's beliefs are really stupid tends to offend them

[Fat1Fared]

Seeing as only just seen this, do it all together

God can do anything. That includes skip around in time. Therefore, there's no way for us to determine how His beliefs will change, making this a waste of time.


Great thing about making a being all powerful, whenever there is problem with it, just say it can do anything (somehow, because being able to do everything is paradox in itself) however just because he can move through time (I will just run with it, that he can) this doesn't stop himself being one in time and doesn't stop his own body/minds natural, changes, he may go back 1000 years say, but his mind won't change back to that of 1000 years before, because when tavel through time, your a constant, just moving wrong or to fast right way, it is time which moves around you, not other way, as if it was otherway, the second you went to time, no longer existed , you would be gone, (and if it did, it would mean that tavelling through time would destroy your mind, as wouldn't be able to move on and you would lose all settings of coneratant thought, which for mr fact man is very bad thing, as his millions of views/thoughts would loop in on themselves)



Unless He knows the path that we're going down and is only looking out for us. He's like a Father and Satan is more like a mother. Father is there to make sure we do what needs to be done. These things aren't fun in the least, but they are GOOD for us. Satan is more like mommy; there simply to make us happy. Cheap stuff, like buying us that video game we want (Or steal it), or tell us that we can fuck anyone we want and they'll accept whether we're straight or gay. Father is a bit more conservative than mother and prefers we all be straight, but will still accept us despite his personal views on homosexuality as long as we respect Him. Or at least, that's how I view it.

He may not be perfect, but He knows everything.


God, I love your view on women holy, it makes me LOL every time,

But anyway, that is moot point here. The fact is it still only what he believes needs to be done and you cannot KNOW everything, as some things are not fact, but merely interpretation of fact and unless you believe the more facts know more valid your view is, it doesn't matter how many facts he knows, his opinion is nothing more than that and if he thinks having more power than me, means he is allowed to tell me my opinion is wrong, then he is nothing more than common dictator

As for this acception, well if theory of hell is to believed, I'm not sure he does accept us and even if that isn't there, the fact is, he has opinion, therefore he is that opinion (a mind is nothing more than the meromies and views it holds)

Finally, who says them cheap trills ain't the meaning to life, I mean we made the idea of god, to give ourselves a deeper purpose, but then what is point of this deeper purpose other than to give us meaning?
Simple, give us deeper meaning, however then surely the meaning is merely to make meaning and if meaning is merely to make meaning there is no deeper meaning than a merer meaning of meaning and....etc,
=See whole thing, falls in on itself. Trying to find a deeper meaning to existence is like racing your own shadow, never ending and and keep going round in circles, because cannot be a final answer, as anything accept as final answer is merely opinion and you can say god is lot smarter than us, so can get round this, but says there isn't force bigger than god and god asks himself same questions we ask?


I'm going to go worship my penis. I mean, it's there. I can see it. I think I'll go participate in orgies. What's that? I have AIDS? I think I'll spread it to everyone! After all, it's a blessing! It makes mine different than everyone else's. I'm a chosen one!

See how that works?


I know guys who do woeful their penis and see it as mini god to woman, (not literally, but the similarities are there)

and to be honest, to me still has no more or no less meaning to it, than believing in our mate in clouds


Like what you're doing? Show me the proof that there's no God. Real proof. Conclusive proof. I bet you can't.

Hypocrisy is present here, and I'm willing to admit that religion is full of contradictions, and humans are self-contradictory.


No it isn't present here holy, as I'm giving reasons for my beliefs (rather than just saying something is plainly wrong without reason why) and if you read through many of my posts at many points, I say this is my own opinion/interpretation of world, nothing more/nothing less (I call myself A questionist (as got no name,) and that means I don't think there is any such thing as total fact (there are facts, but most of time, it is someones interpretation of that fact, not fact itself, we are looking at) or final answer, merely questions and the interpretation of that question, and the opinion that is someones believed answer to that question and finally that, most of time, answers are not answers, merely another question)

and point I was making is that Ish shows this classic thing among some religious poeple (whether believe in a god, a football team, a spettileolli monster....etc) where look at other religions and see it as insane/wrong, but cannot see that their own beliefs are no more valid, proven or serious

As for the whole show me evidence:-

Well in words of Stephen Fry:- (one of my fav poeple)

Show me proof, god exists and I will show you proof he doesn't

Holy, this little quote, basically means 2 things:-

1=The whole cannot disprove him argument is completely redundant, as it is double edged sword, you cannot prove him, I cannot disprove him, simple as that

2=If you were to make a valid agurment for his existence, I could make one against it (as even if is big man in sky, the idea of god is like prefection, an impossible attentment,) so this never has been and never will be about proof, it is about faith and what you have more faith in, me I'm going with natural world, (we are just moving onto point that other less accepted faiths, right or wrong and this is my main point, if going to believe in something on faith, then don't criticize others for doing same,)


:objection::objection::objection::objection::objec tion:

Sorry, just wanted to do that.


:objection: me too :objection: ^_^


The trees don't hate me. Even with the sun, without the trees, I wouldn't exist. Everything is connected. The sun is a tiny, tiny part of the whole line. Thank the Big Bang for creating the sun. Personally, I thank God for causing the Big Bang. God existed before the Big Bang because he's part of the spiritual realm, I believe.


How know don't hate you, we merely belief they have no feelings emotions....etc, but maybe their just good at hiding it, I mean again to me this seems no less far fetched than idea of a god, so we should accept those, who want this


My God created your 'god' to help life, for some reason. Maybe it was on accident. I have no clue. It's a bit of a cop-out to say that we can't comprehend His plan, but it's pretty much true. Maybe he has a plan, maybe he doesn't. There's honestly no way to determine that.


The theological version of "LOOK BEHIND YOU <Runs away> even if is some grand plan, we cannot hope to understand, is there some point to it, I mean in end, no matter what you do, life is merely life and all deeper meanings are only as deep as mind makes them, meaning cannot actually be deeper meaning


It's up to you whether to believe something logical, illogical, completely stupid, or nothing at all. I'm just trying to tell you as nicely as possible that the sun isn't the center of the universe.

who says it isn't, we once believed earth was, maybe we got it wrong again, I mean, ever been in history class, when teacher tells you something that was common belief in day, however now is "Factually" wrong, well who knows what we believe today, that will be Factually" wrong in another 1000 years

God made a deal with mankind not to interfere with our free will. It's by our own will that those things happened, and it's by our own will that we don't let him interfere with that.

We chose this, not him. No matter how much we beg, he can NEVER affect our free will. Humans caused this, not God. Humans are simple animals. Blaming God for the holocaust is in poor taste. The nazis caused it, and the nazis were human, so quite simply, God COULDN'T do anything about it. Now, the nazis lost that war. Maybe God was the reason we won?

And it's not slander. It's libel.

And actually read the rules. I can call your beliefs completely fucking retarded as long as I support that belief decently. I've done so. As long as I don't personally flame you, then I'm fine, and I've never called you stupid; just your beliefs. The point is that I'm allowed to do so.

If you wanted to make a light-hearted topic, then don't make a topic about religion. Religion is serious, and people have strong feelings about it. Don't try to make a joke of religion. It's in poor taste.

I seem to remember it being devil, which made that deal, when he challenged god, saying that no human would follow god, if where not forced too (we couldn't ask for it, as didn't have power:-catch 22, or something)

(Just realised, you used my term lol)

[HolyShadow]

well i have expressed that I have been offended
(what would you say if i said "your beliefs and religion are a pile of crap and your dumber then a child to believe it") not very nice eh?!
because saying someone's beliefs are really stupid tends to offend them
Honestly, I don't care if you call my beliefs stupid. You're a random person on the internet. Did you forget that I'm a random person on the internet, too?

Seeing as only just seen this, do it all together

Great thing about making a being all powerful, whenever there is problem with it, just say it can do anything (somehow, because being able to do everything is paradox in itself) however just because he can move through time (I will just run with it, that he can) this doesn't stop himself being one in time and doesn't stop his own body/minds natural, changes, he may go back 1000 years say, but his mind won't change back to that of 1000 years before, because when tavel through time, your a constant, just moving wrong or to fast right way, it is time which moves around you, not other way, as if it was otherway, the second you went to time, no longer existed , you would be gone, (and if it did, it would mean that tavelling through time would destroy your mind, as wouldn't be able to move on and you would lose all settings of coneratant thought, which for mr fact man is very bad thing, as his millions of views/thoughts would loop in on themselves)

Of course his mind moves on a linear path. What I'm saying is that... say, this is the progression of years: ABC. His progression may be CAB. That means if he makes a deal in year B in his time, it's not year B in our time. Therefore, he could theoretically break his own rule in year C, because our year C is after year B, but his year C is before year B. Get it?

God, I love your view on women holy, it makes me LOL every time,


Eh, it's an idealized view of an older family.

But anyway, that is moot point here. The fact is it still only what he believes needs to be done and you cannot KNOW everything, as some things are not fact, but merely interpretation of fact and unless you believe the more facts know more valid your view is, it doesn't matter how many facts he knows, his opinion is nothing more than that and if he thinks having more power than me, means he is allowed to tell me my opinion is wrong, then he is nothing more than common dictator

It's your choice whether your opinion is wrong. No one else's. After all, God isn't allowed to force you to choose something.

As for this acception, well if theory of hell is to believed, I'm not sure he does accept us and even if that isn't there, the fact is, he has opinion, therefore he is that opinion (a mind is nothing more than the meromies and views it holds)

If I remember correctly, I watched the history channel or something, and apparently, hell was a place that something was burned... I can't remember if it was garbage or criminals or whatever, at one point. So people were threatened that they're burn in hell if they go against the government, or religion.

I think that hell is a place full of sin. Not necessarily eternal torture. It would mean that God simply prefers people be with Him in his ideal view of heaven, but if people choose to be incredibly lustful, an eternity of orgasmic gangbangs and tentacle rape will make them just as happy.

Finally, who says them cheap trills ain't the meaning to life, I mean we made the idea of god, to give ourselves a deeper purpose, but then what is point of this deeper purpose other than to give us meaning?
Simple, give us deeper meaning, however then surely the meaning is merely to make meaning and if meaning is merely to make meaning there is no deeper meaning than a merer meaning of meaning and....etc,
=See whole thing, falls in on itself. Trying to find a deeper meaning to existence is like racing your own shadow, never ending and and keep going round in circles, because cannot be a final answer, as anything accept as final answer is merely opinion and you can say god is lot smarter than us, so can get round this, but says there isn't force bigger than god and god asks himself same questions we ask?

Dunno. I don't have an answer to that. Who does?

I say that the point of life is to find happiness and try to bring the people close to you to the same afterlife as you. At the same time, trying to be nice to everyone you can in order to bring them to that same afterlife. However, as anyone who's tried to advertise a club knows, you can't simply force people or blackmail them or you'll be met with resistance.

I know guys who do woeful their penis and see it as mini god to woman, (not literally, but the similarities are there)

and to be honest, to me still has no more or no less meaning to it, than believing in our mate in clouds

What do clouds have to do with it?

No it isn't present here holy, as I'm giving reasons for my beliefs (rather than just saying something is plainly wrong without reason why) and if you read through many of my posts at many points, I say this is my own opinion/interpretation of world, nothing more/nothing less (I call myself A questionist (as got no name,) and that means I don't think there is any such thing as total fact (there are facts, but most of time, it is someones interpretation of that fact, not fact itself, we are looking at) or final answer, merely questions and the interpretation of that question, and the opinion that is someones believed answer to that question and finally that, most of time, answers are not answers, merely another question)

Yeah, makes sense. Is your 'religion' looking for new members?

and point I was making is that Ish shows this classic thing among some religious poeple (whether believe in a god, a football team, a spettileolli monster....etc) where look at other religions and see it as insane/wrong, but cannot see that their own beliefs are no more valid, proven or serious


As I said, most idols have similarities: Either good, or evil.

As for the whole show me evidence:-

Well in words of Stephen Fry:- (one of my fav poeple)



Holy, this little quote, basically means 2 things:-

1=The whole cannot disprove him argument is completely redundant, as it is double edged sword, you cannot prove him, I cannot disprove him, simple as that

2=If you were to make a valid agurment for his existence, I could make one against it (as even if is big man in sky, the idea of god is like prefection, an impossible attentment,) so this never has been and never will be about proof, it is about faith and what you have more faith in, me I'm going with natural world, (we are just moving onto point that other less accepted faiths, right or wrong and this is my main point, if going to believe in something on faith, then don't criticize others for doing same,)

Well, what if God came down to earth and performed miracles as a physical person? Would you explain Him transporting materials from another plane of reality down to earth right in front of you and made some technology years beyond our time with some logic?

You probably would. Even if He found some way to prove Himself beyond all doubt, then you'd call it bull and find some odd way to explain it. Thing is, some people won't believe in Him no matter what logic is present.



:objection: me too :objection: ^_^

TAKE THAT!

How know don't hate you, we merely belief they have no feelings emotions....etc, but maybe their just good at hiding it, I mean again to me this seems no less far fetched than idea of a god, so we should accept those, who want this

If trees have emotions, then why don't they try to move out of the way when we use them for targeting practice or when cutting them down? Why don't they get distressed?

These are physical beings. Not spiritual beings. This means they have no spiritual characteristics, and with logic, science takes over beliefs with them.

The theological version of "LOOK BEHIND YOU <Runs away> even if is some grand plan, we cannot hope to understand, is there some point to it, I mean in end, no matter what you do, life is merely life and all deeper meanings are only as deep as mind makes them, meaning cannot actually be deeper meaning

Congratulations, you've just killed all art in existence. If there's no deeper meaning, then there's no point to what we're doing; just prolonging our inevitable demise. If that's the case, then there really is no point, so we should all kill ourselves.

Let's do it at the same time. *Hands you a cyanide pill and swallows a skittle* Go on. Do it.

who says it isn't, we once believed earth was, maybe we got it wrong again, I mean, ever been in history class, when teacher tells you something that was common belief in day, however now is "Factually" wrong, well who knows what we believe today, that will be Factually" wrong in another 1000 years

Maybe it is, but gravity is decided by the mass of an object. The more massive it is, the greater its gravitational pull. If you take a pebble and a tire and keep them in space for several years with no other objects pulling on them at all, then they'll pull on each other in that way. Though, the tire will pull the pebble closer to it than the pebble would pull the tire. Because planets and stars tilt on an axis, probably due to the big bang, they spin around each other while being pulled.

Maybe the sun is indeed in the center of the universe, but it doesn't mean that everything revolves around it. If there's a larger star, then perhaps the sun revolves around that. We don't know.

I seem to remember it being devil, which made that deal, when he challenged god, saying that no human would follow god, if where not forced too (we couldn't ask for it, as didn't have power:-catch 22, or something)

Maybe. I don't remember clearly. Doesn't really change anything.

(Just realised, you used my term lol)

Deceit and libel!

[Ishikawa Oshro]

HOLY SUN GOD Fared lolz.
You took hLF THE PAGE.

[TPishek]

If I remember correctly, I watched the history channel or something, and apparently, hell was a place that something was burned... I can't remember if it was garbage or criminals or whatever, at one point. So people were threatened that they're burn in hell if they go against the government, or religion.

Quoted from Talking Donkeys and Wheels of Fire by J. Stephan Lang:

"The Valley of Ben Hinnom outside Jerusalem was notorious as a slaughter site, a place where people sacrificed children to the god Molech [supreme god of the Ammonites-- during worship festivals a metal statue of Molech was heated like a furnace, then infants were placed in its arms and burned]. The good king Josiah put a stop to these abominations, but for years people remembered the site as a place of idol worship and death. In the period between the Old and New Testaments, some Jewish writers claimed Ben Hinnom was the gateway to hell. The Hebrew name Ben Hinnom passed into Greek as Gehenna, and in the Greek New Testament, Gehenna signified the place of eternal punishment--- translated in our English Bibles as "hell," naturally.
Jesus himself used the word several times. To him, and to everyone else who used the word, Gehenna brought to mind the sacrificial fires of the gruesome god Molech. Also, years after the ending of these terrible sacrifices, the site was used as Jerusalem's garbage dump and was kept continually burning. Into it people threw not just household garbage but also animal carcasses and the bodies of executed criminals. This was King Josiah's idea: he knew if he turned the site into a garbage dump, Molech's worshipers would no longer wish to conduct their horrible rituals there. No wonder Gehenna indicated a loathsome place of unending fire."

[Xanadu]

Fat1Fared you said it better then I ever could, even if some are doing the whole;
http://www.christmasghost.com/archives/3%20monkeys.jpg

[HolyShadow]

Fat1Fared you said it better then I ever could, even if some are doing the whole;
http://www.christmasghost.com/archives/3%20monkeys.jpg
And what's that supposed to mean?

See, I interpret that as a flame. You said, "Some people" yet you've only shown dislike of me in this thread. Because you're not attacking my ideas, and rather saying I'm like a monkey that's blind, deaf, and mute.

I'm going to ask you nicely not to be rude about this.

[Xanadu]

because you've been a dick to me in this thread, I am not going to tell you to fuck off-thats just down right low.
You don't seem to care to hear anyone else's side, just your own
You don't care why I believe what I believe in, you just see it as not yours so its stupid
so you can see why I don't have a lot of fondness for you in this thread
your first words were that I was annoying you because I "worshiped the sun" and to you thats a cult or something.
look at what your writing, generally calling someone's beliefs stupid doesn't get them a lot of respect
I used to be christian, a long time ago, I went to church and all that junk but I thought it wasn't me and went on looking and decided to take the good things I'd found and make something out of it, and because I am a writer I thought it'd be a cool challenge-its never going to be read by anyone, its mine to be mine.
No one can tell anyone what to believe in, thats the freedom of belief, people have freewill for a reason.


your never going to find everyone feels the same way about religion, creation and whatnot the same way. So you can either accept it and move on, or stay stuck with it and keep arguing with me.
I am willing to step aside if you are

[HolyShadow]

because you've been a dick to me in this thread, I am not going to tell you to fuck off-thats just down right low.
Now that's thinking the way I do!

You don't seem to care to hear anyone else's side, just your ownFat1Fared is the same way. I recall him saying something like, "Sorry Sally, but I saw that the guy in the link didn't agree with me, so I automatically dismissed it as wrong."

So I'm clearly not the only one like me.

You don't care why I believe what I believe in, you just see it as not yours so its stupidSee above.

so you can see why I don't have a lot of fondness for you in this thread
your first words were that I was annoying you because I "worshiped the sun" and to you thats a cult or something.http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/cult.html

You seem to match the definitions rather well.

look at what your writing, generally calling someone's beliefs stupid doesn't get them a lot of respectDid I say that your beliefs are stupid? Tell me where.

I used to be christian, a long time ago, I went to church and all that junk but I thought it wasn't me and went on looking and decided to take the good things I'd found and make something out of it, and because I am a writer I thought it'd be a cool challenge-its never going to be read by anyone, its mine to be mine.Okay, so you're a member of a cult. What's the big deal?

No one can tell anyone what to believe in, thats the freedom of belief, people have freewill for a reason.Why's that? I don't quite understand your logic there. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on your little cult's beliefs? Is there a spiritual reason behind our free will or are you just saying that?

Ever been to Cuba? People in charge there essentially force others to believe what they believe. They have people spy on each other to prevent insurrections and such. Therefore, not everywhere in the earth allows people to believe what they want to believe. Therefore, it's not a given right everywhere, and therefore you're... wrong.

your never going to find everyone feels the same way about religion, creation and whatnot the same way. So you can either accept it and move on, or stay stuck with it and keep arguing with me.
I am willing to step aside if you are

Oh, you can believe in your cult. I just personally believe that you're going to be ridiculed a lot if you start up a thread about religion and say, "I worship the sun!"

Bottom line: You're unique-- just like everybody else.

[Xanadu]

you know what-think what you want, I don't care anymore

[darkarcher]

Okay, enough bashing on people's views no matter how strange they may seem to you.

[HolyShadow]

Okay, enough bashing on people's views no matter how strange they may seem to you.
Aren't mods supposed to uphold the rules and not just ignore them whenever they're not convenient?

I'll stop, but I suggest that someone rewrites them if I'm not allowed to follow them.

[Serial Ulyssicider]

Okay, enough bashing on people's views no matter how strange they may seem to you.

Awwwww, but this is hilarious!
Plus, it has an incredible (if I may say so myself) anology about religion as Coke syrup.

[Fat1Fared]

Fat1Fared is the same way. I recall him saying something like, "Sorry Sally, but I saw that the guy in the link didn't agree with me, so I automatically dismissed it as wrong."


:-LOL

it was actually

Sally, I read that guys view for you, read it and instantly dismissed it as wrong, because it didn't agree with my own!

it was actually a joke at everyone (including myself,) ab out how we look at things here lol

-as Sally, went to lot of effort to find someone who had actually bothered to do some reseach on gay marriage and when I read it, I took it to pecies lol,

Honestly, I don't care if you call my beliefs stupid. You're a random person on the internet. Did you forget that I'm a random person on the internet, too?


To be fair, this is true, too many people take what is put on internet to personally,


Of course his mind moves on a linear path. What I'm saying is that... say, this is the progression of years: ABC. His progression may be CAB. That means if he makes a deal in year B in his time, it's not year B in our time. Therefore, he could theoretically break his own rule in year C, because our year C is after year B, but his year C is before year B. Get it?


If what you are saying, is that because he can go back to B, he can change C, meaning if he decides he doesn't like C, he never has to stick with it, well see what saying, but:-

1=Relies on him wanting to do this

2=Doesn't stop my oginal point, his actions are still based on his opinion and we don't know if he doesn't change that


Eh, it's an idealized view of an older family.


Indeed


It's your choice whether your opinion is wrong. No one else's. After all, God isn't allowed to force you to choose something.


I don't believe it is wrong, I merely know it isn't right ether lol :thatface:


If I remember correctly, I watched the history channel or something, and apparently, hell was a place that something was burned... I can't remember if it was garbage or criminals or whatever, at one point. So people were threatened that they're burn in hell if they go against the government, or religion.

I think that hell is a place full of sin. Not necessarily eternal torture. It would mean that God simply prefers people be with Him in his ideal view of heaven, but if people choose to be incredibly lustful, an eternity of orgasmic gangbangs and tentacle rape will make them just as happy.


Well, this is merely what you believe it is, however what I think we all seem to think about hell, is it meant to be puishement, which means if is hell, he doesn't accept us,


Dunno. I don't have an answer to that. Who does?

I say that the point of life is to find happiness and try to bring the people close to you to the same afterlife as you. At the same time, trying to be nice to everyone you can in order to bring them to that same afterlife. However, as anyone who's tried to advertise a club knows, you can't simply force people or blackmail them or you'll be met with resistance.


Which is part of my point (other being, can there even be a meaning)

As for your view on life, well fair enough, makes sense in own way


What do clouds have to do with it?


A lot actaully lol, but anyway it is merely sayying


Yeah, makes sense. Is your 'religion' looking for new members?


I cannot lobby for members, because to do that, means I'm sayying I'm right, which kind of defeats the point :thatface: lol (join if like)


As I said, most idols have similarities: Either good, or evil.


Indeed, I agree with this, they are neither good nor evil, in same way no one is good/evil, only inpteretated that way, but not sure how links to my point


Well, what if God came down to earth and performed miracles as a physical person? Would you explain Him transporting materials from another plane of reality down to earth right in front of you and made some technology years beyond our time with some logic?

You probably would. Even if He found some way to prove Himself beyond all doubt, then you'd call it bull and find some odd way to explain it. Thing is, some people won't believe in Him no matter what logic is present.


Yes, I would, because, lets say there is a being, with knowledge on everything and massive power, is he a god, many would say yes, but to me that isn't a god, merely something a lot smarter/stronger than me, however to be a god, means that his opinion is always right and that he is truth to existence itself and I don't believe any creature can actually be that, because in my interpretation of truth, no matter how smart/strong, your opinion on everything, is still only opinion and cannot be right or wrong:-
(only way for uiltmate being to be a god, is for us to say that, the smarter/stronger you are, the more valid your view)


TAKE THAT!


lol


If trees have emotions, then why don't they try to move out of the way when we use them for targeting practice or when cutting them down? Why don't they get distressed?

These are physical beings. Not spiritual beings. This means they have no spiritual characteristics, and with logic, science takes over beliefs with them.


maybe your merely misunderstanding their actions, maybe they willingly let us cut them down, who knows


Congratulations, you've just killed all art in existence. If there's no deeper meaning, then there's no point to what we're doing; just prolonging our inevitable demise. If that's the case, then there really is no point, so we should all kill ourselves.

Let's do it at the same time. *Hands you a cyanide pill and swallows a skittle* Go on. Do it.


Indeed, that is point, their isn't a deeper one, merely ones we give it, and to me there is nothing wrong with only having a shallow meaning to life, as deeper ones are normally nothing more than self-justication and end up looping in on themselves as I proved eariler

-However a lot of poeple seem to fear the idea that their not that important and their existence, isn't something that important, which is why religion is so strong


Maybe it is, but gravity is decided by the mass of an object. The more massive it is, the greater its gravitational pull. If you take a pebble and a tire and keep them in space for several years with no other objects pulling on them at all, then they'll pull on each other in that way. Though, the tire will pull the pebble closer to it than the pebble would pull the tire. Because planets and stars tilt on an axis, probably due to the big bang, they spin around each other while being pulled.

Maybe the sun is indeed in the center of the universe, but it doesn't mean that everything revolves around it. If there's a larger star, then perhaps the sun revolves around that. We don't know.



I take it you are on about, how sun can be centre of Universe, well I don't know and your theory make sense (though is probably wrong lol) however that wasn't point, is what is seen as true today, may not be tomorrow


Maybe. I don't remember clearly. Doesn't really change anything.

Deceit and libel!

-Maybe doesn't, maybe does, all about inpteretation lol

-lol

[HolyShadow]

:-LOL

it was actually

it was actually a joke at everyone (including myself,) ab out how we look at things here lol

-as Sally, went to lot of effort to find someone who had actually bothered to do some reseach on gay marriage and when I read it, I took it to pecies lol,

And 99.999% of the things I say aren't a joke? :thatface: We're very alike.

To be fair, this is true, too many people take what is put on internet to personally,

Gotta have fun with it.

If what you are saying, is that because he can go back to B, he can change C, meaning if he decides he doesn't like C, he never has to stick with it, well see what saying, but:-

1=Relies on him wanting to do this

2=Doesn't stop my oginal point, his actions are still based on his opinion and we don't know if he doesn't change that Yeah, I'm not trying to argue with that. I'm actually agreeing with you. Who says a God has to be perfect? Gods die. Ever heard of the akasha sword? It's not just in code geass.

Indeed

Quite.

I don't believe it is wrong, I merely know it isn't right ether lol :thatface:

Please give us, the indecisive mothman party, a higher voice!

Well, this is merely what you believe it is, however what I think we all seem to think about hell, is it meant to be puishement, which means if is hell, he doesn't accept us,

Unless he made a deal that states something along the lines of how if He can't manage to get us to Heaven, then Lucifer will have our souls, and since Lucifer hates humans out of envy, Lucifer will torture us to spite God. God wouldn't be sending us to hell. The devil would.

Which is part of my point (other being, can there even be a meaning)

I think there is. Sometimes, things are too convenient. I think our existence is too convenient and there are too many unanswered questions about how we came to be. Unless these are all answered, and all of the resulting questions from that, I'd rather believe that we were created by something for a purpose, even if that something is a scientific reason. I simply choose to believe in a God because it's a bit... kinder. What's so bad about an all-powerful being looking out for us and allowing us to play in our little playpen before growing up and working in the workforce in heaven? I think it's rather poetic.

As for your view on life, well fair enough, makes sense in own way

Glad to see you agree.

A lot actaully lol, but anyway it is merely sayying

Pipirupirupirupipirupi.

I cannot lobby for members, because to do that, means I'm sayying I'm right, which kind of defeats the point :thatface: lol (join if like)

Please join us, the indecisive mothman party! Also, the orc party is lobbying for more hot chicks in the assembly! Come on, guys!

Indeed, I agree with this, they are neither good nor evil, in same way no one is good/evil, only inpteretated that way, but not sure how links to my point

Yeah, I'm confused to that as well. Geez, this HolyRadiance guy doesn't know what he's doing!... or was too lazy to look back at his other post and explain it in a way that makes sense.

Yes, I would, because, lets say there is a being, with knowledge on everything and massive power, is he a god, many would say yes, but to me that isn't a god, merely something a lot smarter/stronger than me, however to be a god, means that his opinion is always right and that he is truth to existence itself and I don't believe any creature can actually be that, because in my interpretation of truth, no matter how smart/strong, your opinion on everything, is still only opinion and cannot be right or wrong:-
(only way for uiltmate being to be a god, is for us to say that, the smarter/stronger you are, the more valid your view)


Unless he has no opinion on anything. You'd probably agree with him then, while simultaneously thinking that his indecisiveness is both the right and wrong answer.

lol

:8V:


maybe your merely misunderstanding their actions, maybe they willingly let us cut them down, who knows

Of course, you could just plant a flag in a tree, then claim that all the thoughts of trees are now under your command. After all, that's how you lay claim to things. You plant a flag in them.

*Plants a flag in a tree* I claim that all tree thoughts obey my geass! I command you, thoughts, die!

There. Argument solved.

Indeed, that is point, their isn't a deeper one, merely ones we give it, and to me there is nothing wrong with only having a shallow meaning to life, as deeper ones are normally nothing more than self-justication and end up looping in on themselves as I proved eariler

The point of life is to find your individual fate and follow it. My fate is impossible for me to follow, and therefore, I have no purpose.

(My greatest dream is to kill Satan, take over Hell, then command the army of Hell to take earth, excute the leaders of the world, and then basically rule like Light Yagami. It's impossible, though, so I'll just sorta... wait to die)

-However a lot of poeple seem to fear the idea that their not that important and their existence, isn't something that important, which is why religion is so strong

See above. *Waits*

I take it you are on about, how sun can be centre of Universe, well I don't know and your theory make sense (though is probably wrong lol) however that wasn't point, is what is seen as true today, may not be tomorrow

Thoughts are fleeting. Who's to say tomorrow will be any more right than today?

-Maybe doesn't, maybe does, all about inpteretation lol

*Interprets reality*

You are a woman.

-lol
Laughing at that pre-emptively, huh?

You dastard!

[MXZ Sword Prince]

I am a atheist born on Christmas
i know that god exists (because whatever gave life to the world is the definition of god) however i chose not to worship him or try my best to be accepted in his kingdom after death simply because i think life is meant to be enjoyed your gonna die one day why not live till you die

[HolyShadow]

I am a atheist born on Christmas
i know that god exists (because whatever gave life to the world is the definition of god) however i chose not to worship him or try my best to be accepted in his kingdom after death simply because i think life is meant to be enjoyed your gonna die one day why not live till you die
It sounds like you're just trying to be different for the sake of being different because you're afraid that people will judge you and call you ignorant because of your religion.

Who says that religion makes your life completely boring and useless? Life can be enjoyable while you worship God. It's not like there's any real reason behind what you said, imo. All you have to really do is avoid partaking in massive orgies or snuff films and I think you'll be set.

Worship God and you'll get a second life. Eternal life sounds grand to me.

[OverMind]

I am a atheist born on Christmas
i know that god exists (because whatever gave life to the world is the definition of god) however i chose not to worship him or try my best to be accepted in his kingdom after death simply because i think life is meant to be enjoyed your gonna die one day why not live till you die

You're not an atheist if you believe (or, in this case, "know") God exists.

Case closed.

[darkarcher]

You're not an atheist if you believe (or, in this case, "know") God exists.

Case closed.

This. It's more like he's an anti-theist.

[EdBat]

This. It's more like he's an anti-theist.

Agnostic?

[darkarcher]

Agnostic?

Agnostic is the position that God may or may not exist and the person subsequently chooses to behave as if God exists or not.

Rather, his position is that God does exist, but he chooses to not act upon that belief in any way.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I thought that was called a deist. Same difference, probably.

-as Sally, went to lot of effort to find someone who had actually bothered to do some reseach on gay marriage and when I read it, I took it to pecies lol

Stop bragging. You missed out on a lot of points the essay offered and misunderstood/jumped to conclusions on some of the others. Also you refuse to see eye-to-eye with me on the whole, "You can love someone without agreeing to every single one of their actions" notion. I didn't reply to you after the second time because I'm tired of repeating myself, lol.

Back on topic, sometimes I think some atheists treat their disbelief in God as a religion. Not all of them do, but some.

[Fat1Fared]

I thought that was called a deist. Same difference, probably.



Stop bragging. You missed out on a lot of points the essay offered and misunderstood/jumped to conclusions on some of the others. Also you refuse to see eye-to-eye with me on the whole, "You can love someone without agreeing to every single one of their actions" notion. I didn't reply to you after the second time because I'm tired of repeating myself, lol.

Back on topic, sometimes I think some atheists treat their disbelief in God as a religion. Not all of them do, but some.

Sally, I was actually taking mick out of myself not bragging, as for other points you make, go back to page and all answered there, waiting for your answer, so I can answer your answer, which then gets another answer, for me to answer with answer, that will put a further rebutting answer and wait where was I going with this again?

-But seeing as love thing, is on point of religion, I have answered that point a million times to you and not once have you ever read what I put, so I will put it one last time on its own for you to read and see if gets a response:-
=Like I said, I'm not on about love, whether you love them or not, doesn't bother or interest me at all, as it is a moot point here, like you yourself have put, you can love someone without accepting their life choices, so why bother being it into a debate about whether you believe someone has made an acceptable life choice or not, I don't care if you love them, I don't even want you to respect or approve of them, I just you accept their life choice and their right to that choice (this point isn't against you in pretecticalaur, as apart from putting your beliefs on internet site, you generally don't seem to go against other poeples life choices, but against religious groups in general)

So in short, it isn't the love I (or they, I suspect) want, it is acceptance and like you said there is diifference,

[loveistears]

personally im athiest. i do not beleive in god.

but in my mind i beleive there is a chance for all religions to be right. no one really knows.

[HolyShadow]

Sally, I was actually taking mick out of myself not bragging, as for other points you make, go back to page and all answered there, waiting for your answer, so I can answer your answer, which then gets another answer, for me to answer with answer, that will put a further rebutting answer and wait where was I going with this again?

-But seeing as love thing, is on point of religion, I have answered that point a million times to you and not once have you ever read what I put, so I will put it one last time on its own for you to read and see if gets a response:-
=Like I said, I'm not on about love, whether you love them or not, doesn't bother or interest me at all, as it is a moot point here, like you yourself have put, you can love someone without accepting their life choices, so why bother being it into a debate about whether you believe someone has made an acceptable life choice or not, I don't care if you love them, I don't even want you to respect or approve of them, I just you accept their life choice and their right to that choice (this point isn't against you in pretecticalaur, as apart from putting your beliefs on internet site, you generally don't seem to go against other poeples life choices, but against religious groups in general)

So in short, it isn't the love I (or they, I suspect) want, it is acceptance and like you said there is diifference,
I'm confused as to what they want us to accept. That they're gay?

A lot of gays are atheist because they say religion doesn't accept them. However, a lot of them deny this by saying that there's no logical proof in religion and that's they're reasoning. However, the problem with that is that there's no proof of a 'gay gene' of any type. This means they're asking us to accept something that logically doesn't exist while simultaneously telling us to be logical about God.

So therefore, all atheist gays that say that there being a God is illogical is therefore a hypocrite.

Now, if there were a gay gene, how do you think things would play out? I think religion would deny it and continue saying it's a choice, or religion would change the way they view things. The third result is that most religions (Mostly christianity) will fall to pieces.

Enough of that, however. Personally, I accept that gays exist, but I don't accept that it isn't a choice. It's too illogical and leaves too many unanswered questions. The whole, "YOU'LL FEEL THAT IT'S TRUE SO HAVE FAITH!" doesn't fly if the person is an atheist, and they most likely are. That's what it boils down to: Either it's a genetic flaw or it's a choice. If it's genetics, then sure. It's logical and I'll accept them. However, at present, there's no proof of that. Therefore, it's logically a choice at this point. Does this mean gays don't exist? Of course not. It's not like someone just wakes up and decides they're gay. It happens significantly early in their life, for the most part.

Of course, several women that have had sex in porno flicks say they don't view themselves as lesbians, so some of them do choose to have sex with another woman despite not classifying themselves as a lesbian. See a problem there?

A blanket statement like, "All gay people are forced to be gay" just isn't true.

[Serial Ulyssicider]

Fat1Fared you said it better then I ever could, even if some are doing the whole;
http://www.christmasghost.com/archives/3%20monkeys.jpg

Errrrr......
You've just confused things beyond understanding.
What are you trying to say?
Because, traditionally, that means 'see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil', which, to be honest, does not have that much relevance to the shit that is flying aroundon the forum.
Unless you are meaning to use it in a non-religious way, by saying that there are people refusing to see, or acknowledge, other viewpoints. Once again, a giant lack of relevance there.
:D

[HolyShadow]

I took it to mean that he was calling me a monkey, though I do know what it represents.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I think religion would deny it and continue saying it's a choice, or religion would change the way they view things. The third result is that most religions (Mostly christianity) will fall to pieces.

I don't believe that it's a conscious choice nor do I really believe in the "gay gene," at least not in the kind of gay gene that automatically makes you gay no matter what environment you were raised in. If there's any genetic explanation for homosexuality, I believe that it's probably similar to the kind of genetic blame there is for alcoholism, where not everyone who possesses this trait becomes alcoholic; it's just more likely than without that "gene."

Of course, several women that have had sex in porno flicks say they don't view themselves as lesbians, so some of them do choose to have sex with another woman despite not classifying themselves as a lesbian. See a problem there?

I kissed a girl and I liked it, the taste of her cherry chapstick.
I kissed a girl and I liked it, I hope my boyfriend don't mind it.

Straight girls sometimes like to make out with other girls at clubs, probably because they want to be seen as hot in front of the guys. So there is choice involved in some homosexual activity.

One thing that bothers me in general is the thought that "science" and "religion" are supposed to be at war with each other. Religion is typically the organized worship of a supernatural being (or more), whereas science is the study of natural phenomena. They're 2 entirely different things; just because religion taught a few things that "contradict science," it doesn't discard the entirety of the religion.

For example, the creation story. Augustine of Hippo was a Roman Catholic philosopher who lived between 354-430 AD, long before Darwin ever came up with his theory of evolution. Augustine didn't take the story of Genesis literally, but rather said that the six-day structure was more a more spiritual representation of the creation of the world than a literal/physical truth. He came up with this idea before the science of evolution came to be. So it's not like the early Christians took everything in the Bible literally, and then as soon as science said otherwise, religion said something like, "Well now that you say it, we can change religion so that it matches science!"

I think that people in today's society tend to treat the early Christians like complete morons. Maybe that's a bit of a generalization on my part, but that's what I feel.

[Fat1Fared]

<Facepalm> well sally clearly didn't bother to answer it, ok whatever, I will look at what holy put:-

I'm confused as to what they want us to accept. That they're gay?


To be fair, I will give you this one, as there is different things that different poeple will want, but this is held in every area of life and what the general group want is, an acceptance, not where you Love or respect their choice, but you accept and respect their right to that choice, instead of saying it is wrong choice (they want you like me, a lot think I'm pro-gay, I'm not, I don't give too fegs about gay poeple, I just dislike poeple being against them, without reason)


A lot of gays are atheist because they say religion doesn't accept them. However, a lot of them deny this by saying that there's no logical proof in religion and that's they're reasoning. However, the problem with that is that there's no proof of a 'gay gene' of any type. This means they're asking us to accept something that logically doesn't exist while simultaneously telling us to be logical about God.

So therefore, all atheist gays that say that there being a God is illogical is therefore a hypocrite.


I can see, how you came to this idea, but your mssing a key difference here holy:-
=Which is that church is treating gayness is wrong (lets not get into the pedantic's of that point, like your allowed feelings, just not allowed to act on those feeling...etc) and so they are trying to stop gayness, on other hand MOST gay poeple, are not out to destroy religion, (infact, there are lot of gay poeple who believe in god, but feel removed from religious commiuty rather god himself (look at this man)

http://www.usnews.com/.../activists-work-to-show-gays-are-not-anti-religious.htm ))

They just want make so that religious groups don't use their religion as reason to judge them.


Now, if there were a gay gene, how do you think things would play out? I think religion would deny it and continue saying it's a choice, or religion would change the way they view things. The third result is that most religions (Mostly christianity) will fall to pieces.


I think, that it would be, that they would say it is natural, but then say it is natural defect <facepalm> or the first choice (however I don't understand your beleif that it being nature is great, most don't care if nature or not, the only agurments they ever make around this area, is counter points, most say that it doesn't matter them)


Enough of that, however. Personally, I accept that gays exist, but I don't accept that it isn't a choice. It's too illogical and leaves too many unanswered questions. The whole, "YOU'LL FEEL THAT IT'S TRUE SO HAVE FAITH!" doesn't fly if the person is an atheist, and they most likely are. That's what it boils down to: Either it's a genetic flaw or it's a choice. If it's genetics, then sure. It's logical and I'll accept them. However, at present, there's no proof of that. Therefore, it's logically a choice at this point. Does this mean gays don't exist? Of course not. It's not like someone just wakes up and decides they're gay. It happens significantly early in their life, for the most part.


Well this answers point above I suppose lol, but holy I'm going to agree with point, I think sally has made, that is simply to simple a way to look at it:-I mean I'm not going to be silly, and well is it ok for emotionless psychathotics to kill poeple, as that is natural to them as that is too simple as well, what I am going to say is, if we just do what is natural, what is point of having senitent ideas and CHOICE, we are allowed to choice how we live and the reason behind that isn't what looking at here, as lets say that gays are all fooling themselves and not gay, I have yet to see an agurment that sounds good enough to still say that what they have CHOOSE to do, is wrong:-


Of course, several women that have had sex in porno flicks say they don't view themselves as lesbians, so some of them do choose to have sex with another woman despite not classifying themselves as a lesbian. See a problem there?


Not really, whether you agree with their choice or how they view themselves, doesn't matter, I don't like what they do, but would I ever stop them doing it or even say they should stop (Also this comes back to my thing on interpretation, you may interpretate them different to they interpretate themselves, does it make ether of you rght or wrong?)


A blanket statement like, "All gay people are forced to be gay" just isn't true.

That is true, but does something have to be black or white, before you will think it has justication?
=If so, then their is a lot of gray in this world which go without answer, as world rarely ever gives us a black and white thing

[musigal]

After reading through the religious apocalypse thread and realizing that what I wanted to say in that discussion didn't really have anything to do with the apocalypse, I looked for a thread in which it would fit, and this seemed to be the most appropriate place.

I would like to say what I personally believe. For those who don't believe the same as me, do not take this as a slam or a coercion to believe the same as me. I just want to tell you all what I believe so that I know you know and in the hope that you will see that it is the truth.

There is one truth, i.e. truth is not a relative thing that each person can choose for themselves. There is one God. He is above all and created all. He is not confined by the limits of his creation and he has no creator. He is transcendent and immanent; though he is above all he is involved with his creation. God created mankind in his image, i.e. we are spiritual as well as physical and have personality, creativity, self-expression, self-determination, and self-consciousness as he does. God loves his creation infinitely and perfectly. There is no perversion in his love.
God created humanity in a perfect environment, but because we are made self-determinate in his image, and because he loves us, God does not force us to have relationship with him. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, choosing to disbelieve God's good intentions and seeking to make themselves equal with God. This first sin introduced death and pain into the world. The universe is now a broken system in the process of redemption. However, every human being has chosen in their own right to disobey God. They are not merely punished for their parents' sins.

Because God is holy, set apart and perfect, sin and imperfection cannot exist in his presence, so our relationship with him is broken because we have sinned. But, because God loves us so much, he came to earth in the form of a man, determined to take our punishment for us.
I could have offered my life to cover yours, but who then would have covered mine? Everyone who sins has earned death for themselves. God knew this, so he came in order to be a perfect sacrifice to cover all sin. He lived perfectly on earth, and because of this, when he was killed, he was able to take all of the sins of all people upon himself and bear their punishment. He died in our place. This cleanses us in the eyes of God and allows us to once again have relationship with him. All we have to do is acknowledge our own sinfulness and brokenness and accept his death as our substitution, accepting his invitation to have a relationship with him and yielding control of our lives to him so that he can begin to change us from the inside out to be more like him.
But he did not stay dead. On the third day after his death he rose from the grave and went back to heaven, promising to return for us someday and to create a new heaven and a new earth free from sin.


Because the physical world is not yet mended, we still die physically. But death is not the end. Our souls do not die, rather, they live on, living in eternity with God or spending eternity apart from him and utterly alone. However, he only lets us go to the latter after all possible effort has been taken on his part. He lets us go over his dead body.

[OverMind]

To each his own; I don't have a problem with religion as long as it stays in the confines of one's personal life.

As such, I have a problem when religion interferes or tries to shape social policy which affects everyone, including non-believers.

So, it's great that you (not necessarily musigal above, but "you" the reader of this post) feel that abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, or contraceptives are wrong. But, in this case, these things are "wrong" from your perspective. It may not be necessarily "wrong" for others. As such, the social policy shaped, as a result, shouldn't be motivated by the religious perspective since that's exclusionary.

[HolyShadow]

That type of argument alone isn't quite proper.

It should also be proven that those things will help more lives than they hurt, rather than just assuming that religion is wrong in things that they are against. It could very well be that certain things are indeed found to make people as a whole worse-off. Just because something is wrong from a religious perspective doesn't automatically make it wrong.

I suppose what I'm saying is...

Just because you CAN argue something doesn't mean it's right.

[OverMind]

It should also be proven that those things will help more lives than they hurt, rather than just assuming that religion is wrong in things that they are against. It could very well be that certain things are indeed found to make people as a whole worse-off. Just because something is wrong from a religious perspective doesn't automatically make it wrong.

I suppose what I'm saying is...

Just because you CAN argue something doesn't mean it's right.

I'm quite sure that if these things actually worsened people's lives, there wouldn't be a demand for them.

[Fat1Fared]

-Seeing as I don't have the heart to debate Musigal and pedantically pick all the illogical points out in her ideas, I will just ask this question (which is more to everyone and another thing which has always bugged me) (ps last comment mostly joke)

God created mankind in his image,

-How can a being of Infinitance and Omnipotence create creatures of Finite bound obligation and deficient fallibility in his own image, when by its omissions this a counter-paradoxical ideal


Fared, not everyone believes going to church is the only way to practice their religion. Hell, I didn't go to church once this year, but I'm still a Christian.

-Read what I put again and see, the removal of the individual here, this is about society, not individism,

yes. Christianity is a relationship not a religion... I believe that Salvation is not earned by actions. (in other words, I agree with everything you've posted in this thread so far.)

As much as it pains me, Fared, I must disagree with you. JR is not merely twisting words... he is pointing out that there is a distinct difference in mindset between believing that your actions earn your salvation and your actions springing from gratitude for an already acquired salvation.

You seem to enjoy twisting peoples words as much as you say they are twisting the english language.

I wish i could elaborate and say it in a more eloquent way, but i'm late running out the door... perhaps I'll say more later.

=And here is the thing which is difficult for people to understand, I understand that, but read what I put again and my point is lot sutler than simply making a twist on the link, I'm saying the link in itself is lot more complicated than JR's point, which is simply twisting a common belief about all religion to make seem nicer in his own.

Here's the thing - and it's pretty hard to believe, but we do actually believe that God communicates with us. It's not the same as talking with another human person, but some people can hear God in their prayer times. Of course there's the issue of whether or not it's actually God or if it's just your head, but that's usually when you ask for signs and the ability to discern those "voices" better.

I know it sounds weird and like we're all schizo lunatics, but... I somehow doubt that's the case.

No don’t worry it doesn’t because science has already proven that the part of your brain which actives when you believe talking to god is same part which creates the Placebo effect, so.... <shrugs>

[MrsSallyBakura]

To each his own; I don't have a problem with religion as long as it stays in the confines of one's personal life.

As such, I have a problem when religion interferes or tries to shape social policy which affects everyone, including non-believers.

So, it's great that you (not necessarily musigal above, but "you" the reader of this post) feel that abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, or contraceptives are wrong. But, in this case, these things are "wrong" from your perspective. It may not be necessarily "wrong" for others. As such, the social policy shaped, as a result, shouldn't be motivated by the religious perspective since that's exclusionary.

1. So unlike musigal, you don't believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth?

Can I only hold a 5-dollar bill in my hand, call it a 6-dollar bill, and still be telling the truth because it's somehow true for me?

I know that these seem like different concepts because one is about morality and the other is about physical evidence (and a simple yes or no question for most), but they connect. "Did God create the universe?" is a simple yes or no question asking about the origin of the universe. If the answer is no, then there isn't really much of a point of morality in the first place. But if the answer is yes, then you can ask, "Did God send His son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins?" If you answer yes to that question and you understand that Jesus was also sent to help teach absolute truth, then we should take what Jesus taught as absolute truth. Even though morality seems like a vague concept that varies from person-to-person, in Christian context it is related to the truth that is reason for our existence in the first place.

I hope that made sense, lol.

2. What do you think of "evangelization?" Do you think that Christians or other religions shouldn't evangelize? And by evangelize, I don't mean "shove down people's throats," because that's obviously not very effective if you're trying to get people to convert. I simply mean talk about it as a civil human being to those who don't believe, and not necessarily as a debate.

No don’t worry it doesn’t because science has already proven that the part of your brain which actives when you believe talking to god is same part which creates the Placebo effect, so.... <shrugs>

1. Since when did science "prove" that talking to God was part of some placebo effect?
2. What kind of person came up with this "proof?"

[Fat1Fared]

1. So unlike musigal, you don't believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth?

Can I only hold a 5-dollar bill in my hand, call it a 6-dollar bill, and still be telling the truth because it's somehow true for me?


you sort of answered your own question here, as its only 5 dollars because we say it is, however by taking the idea that what we make truth, is in fact truth, for granted, you have gone the completely wrong way in concluding it. These are not definitive truths, merely defined ones, there is massive difference!


1. Since when did science "prove" that talking to God was part of some placebo effect?
2. What kind of person came up with this "proof?"

I have not got time to get the studies out now (because of course, trying to find one which has not been repressed (which several studies were for 10 years) or bais'ed by ether/ and or, religious/atheist's who both completely misconstrue it findings to try and prove each other right/wrong) is pain up ass, but they are out there, so look into the rostral anterior cingulate cortex.

and neurotheology (which is field looking at)

and The God Chemical: Brain Chemistry And Mysticism study

and finally, most importantly "the god spot"

PS also one of main reseachers Dr Newburg is niether religious or non-believer , however Dr Grafman's studies are lot better in scientific terms, his are also the ones which harder to find good reports on

There are quite few studies altogether though

[HolyShadow]

I'm quite sure that if these things actually worsened people's lives, there wouldn't be a demand for them.
So you're saying abortion doesn't ruin anyone's lives?

No, it kills babies before they're considered babies.

They aren't able to argue. That doesn't mean that it doesn't ruin their lives. It just means that they aren't capable of defending themselves.

The only way this can be done morally is if you de-humanize what you're killing.

"It's just a cow."
"It's just an enemy combatant."
"It's just a fetus."

It's a living creature.
It's another person.
It's an unborn baby.

These things are all living, yet the way we justify it is by making them seem like less than that. For the cow, I understand because it is indeed less than human. However, the baby is going to become a human. It has the potential to become one. If you could argue now for whether your mother could perform an abortion, you would definitely argue no unless you're just arguing for the sake of arguing or you're so damn depressed that you don't want to live. But should we assume that every baby that has to undergo that terrible process of murder is suicidal? No, we shouldn't. The majority, if given the chance to argue, would argue no. This is their lives, and as long as we have the chance to live, everything has the chance to get better.

What's keeping us from realizing all of this is mostly just women who are using the exact same logic. "It's my life, I should decide how to live it" is the same as "It's my body. I should decide what it has to go through." However, the main difference is that with unborn babies, through their birth, most of the time the mother isn't going to die from it being born.

That is why the only time that I can say an abortion can be considered okay is if the mother's very life is at risk from the birthing process. It doesn't matter when you perform the abortion and whether the baby feels pain or not. A life for a life.

Even when the mother is raped... that's something I'm not so sure about. It's traumatic, yes, but punishing an innocent baby for something that disgusting scum did... that's wrong, in my opinion. The mother will have to go through pain, yes, but then they can give it up for adoption. It'll hurt, but at least that child will have a shot at life. The mother, after giving it up for adoption, can continue to live life the way she used to. It's incredibly traumatic, but punishing a child solves nothing if the child is not at fault.

It's all due to this dehumanizing of human beings that we're able to commit such atrocious acts. It isn't just the woman's body. The woman is sharing her body with another human being. She just doesn't comprehend that the thing inside her is a growing human being... or she just doesn't want to comprehend that.

[Underling]

"Did God create the universe?" is a simple yes or no question asking about the origin of the universe. If the answer is no, then there isn't really much of a point of morality in the first place.

except for y'know... basic human decency, fucking christians...

[DarthWario]

except for y'know... basic human decency, fucking christians...

Oh, and a general survival instinct. Who to trust is helped a lot by morality, and all that.

[Underling]

Oh, and a general survival instinct. Who to trust is helped a lot by morality, and all that.

well, that's more the reason we developed morality in the first place than why people behave morally

[OverMind]

1. So unlike musigal, you don't believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth?

Can I only hold a 5-dollar bill in my hand, call it a 6-dollar bill, and still be telling the truth because it's somehow true for me?

I know that these seem like different concepts because one is about morality and the other is about physical evidence (and a simple yes or no question for most), but they connect. "Did God create the universe?" is a simple yes or no question asking about the origin of the universe. If the answer is no, then there isn't really much of a point of morality in the first place. But if the answer is yes, then you can ask, "Did God send His son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins?" If you answer yes to that question and you understand that Jesus was also sent to help teach absolute truth, then we should take what Jesus taught as absolute truth. Even though morality seems like a vague concept that varies from person-to-person, in Christian context it is related to the truth that is reason for our existence in the first place.

This seems like a very weak analogy.

I'm more content with morality being malleable depending on one's social context as opposed to having something that's one-size-fits-all.

Homosexuality? It's okay in my books. Of course, if I was born 50 years ago that may not have been the case. And, of course, if I was born maybe 2500 years ago, and lived at the time of the Greeks, it'd be okay as well.

I don't feel that religion itself even lives up to adhering to 'absolute truths'. In the past, the Catholic church disapproved of simply being homosexual, let alone the act. This is best illustrated by Aquinas' position that being homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. The current position of the Church condones homosexuality (not the act, but being homosexual). Yet, this viewpoint differs from the previous one. This doesn't seem like a very 'absolute' position to me.

Of course, if morality is malleable, as I have suggested, then it makes sense. The Church simply sought to catch up with the times.

As such, I'm not convinced that an 'absolute truth' exists.


2. What do you think of "evangelization?" Do you think that Christians or other religions shouldn't evangelize? And by evangelize, I don't mean "shove down people's throats," because that's obviously not very effective if you're trying to get people to convert. I simply mean talk about it as a civil human being to those who don't believe, and not necessarily as a debate.

As long as I'm not being forced into anything, I don't mind. Evangelization is a two-way street, it's only effective if you allow it to be.

For instance, I'm completely immune to it.

When I said 'social policy', I meant instituting laws for the benefit of your own religion. A classic case is equating creation pseudo-science with evolution.

This contrasts greatly with trying to convince and succeeding at getting someone to join your religion. The person that was convinced allowed the evangelist a chance to do so.

So you're saying abortion doesn't ruin anyone's lives?

No, it kills babies before they're considered babies.

They aren't able to argue. That doesn't mean that it doesn't ruin their lives. It just means that they aren't capable of defending themselves.

The only way this can be done morally is if you de-humanize what you're killing.

"It's just a cow."
"It's just an enemy combatant."
"It's just a fetus."

It's a living creature.
It's another person.
It's an unborn baby.

These things are all living, yet the way we justify it is by making them seem like less than that. For the cow, I understand because it is indeed less than human. However, the baby is going to become a human. It has the potential to become one. If you could argue now for whether your mother could perform an abortion, you would definitely argue no unless you're just arguing for the sake of arguing or you're so damn depressed that you don't want to live. But should we assume that every baby that has to undergo that terrible process of murder is suicidal? No, we shouldn't. The majority, if given the chance to argue, would argue no. This is their lives, and as long as we have the chance to live, everything has the chance to get better.

What's keeping us from realizing all of this is mostly just women who are using the exact same logic. "It's my life, I should decide how to live it" is the same as "It's my body. I should decide what it has to go through." However, the main difference is that with unborn babies, through their birth, most of the time the mother isn't going to die from it being born.

That is why the only time that I can say an abortion can be considered okay is if the mother's very life is at risk from the birthing process. It doesn't matter when you perform the abortion and whether the baby feels pain or not. A life for a life.

Even when the mother is raped... that's something I'm not so sure about. It's traumatic, yes, but punishing an innocent baby for something that disgusting scum did... that's wrong, in my opinion. The mother will have to go through pain, yes, but then they can give it up for adoption. It'll hurt, but at least that child will have a shot at life. The mother, after giving it up for adoption, can continue to live life the way she used to. It's incredibly traumatic, but punishing a child solves nothing if the child is not at fault.

It's all due to this dehumanizing of human beings that we're able to commit such atrocious acts. It isn't just the woman's body. The woman is sharing her body with another human being. She just doesn't comprehend that the thing inside her is a growing human being... or she just doesn't want to comprehend that.

Well, then, since you feel so passionately that the clump-of-cells in the womb being human, I'd hope you wouldn't get an abortion (or, convince your loved one not to, anyway).

For the rest of us, who don't place much importance on the matter, I'd hope that we can make the decision ourselves.

It's win-win really, with the legalization of abortion, those that disagree need not participate and those that do can. I feel this is a lot better than the government (being influenced by the religious right) making the decision for me.

[AllisonWalker]

People need to quit calling people who chose abortion "parents". You're not a parent if you're choosing to kill your unborn child. That goes against nature.

[OverMind]

People need to quit calling people who chose abortion "parents". You're not a parent if you're choosing to kill your unborn child. That goes against nature.

I feel that we should disallow calling people who gave birth via C-Sections "parents" because these, too, are unnatural.

[AllisonWalker]

Overmind, haha, you just don't get it, do you?

Having a baby is the natural order of things. Every living creature is hard-wired to spread their genes.

Killing your child on purpose goes against everything.

Having a C-section still leads to pro-creating. Having a baby cut out of your uterus does not.

And no, this has nothing to do with religion.

Parents are people who take care of their offspring so that they can spread their genes when they become sexually mature.

[OverMind]

Overmind, haha, you just don't get it, do you?

Having a baby is the natural order of things. Every living creature is hard-wired to spread their genes.

Even priests? If it is so natural, why would it be sinful for, say, a Catholic priest to marry and have children?


Killing your child on purpose goes against everything.

Well, if we're going with the 'natural' viewpoint and looking at 'every living creature' in general, I can list a multitude of examples of animals purposefully killing their children.

In comparison, we tend to do it more 'humanely' before the child is even considered human.


Having a C-section still leads to pro-creating. Having a baby cut out of your uterus does not.

Parents are people who take care of their offspring so that they can spread their genes when they become sexually mature.

Regardless, this is sort of a dumb argument. In fact, I wasn't disagreeing with you, as you can plainly see from my post.

I'm more inclined to define a parent as someone who had a child. As I've argued before, an abortion is ethical because the fetus in one's womb isn't actually human so the child was non-existent. No child means that the person wasn't a parent.

[AllisonWalker]

Even priests? If it is so natural, why would it be sinful for, say, a Catholic priest to marry and have children?


It has nothing to do with religion. The Catholic Church, back in the day, was more concerned about saving souls than people having children. It was more respectable to remain a virgin for life.



Well, if we're going with the 'natural' viewpoint and looking at 'every living creature' in general, I can list a multitude of examples of animals purposefully killing their children.

In comparison, we tend to do it more 'humanely' before the child is even considered human.


It serves no purpose whatsoever.

And many people do consider a fetus to be human. I believe its DNA would say "human".



Regardless, this is sort of a dumb argument. In fact, I wasn't disagreeing with you, as you can plainly see from my post.

I'm more inclined to define a parent as someone who had a child. As I've argued before, an abortion is ethical because the fetus in one's womb isn't actually human so the child was non-existent. No child means that the person wasn't a parent.


I don't think abortions are ethical, but if you didn't give birth to a living, breathing child, you were never a parent.

[HolyShadow]

OverMind.

Answer my question.

Suppose every single parent has the choice to ask their child 30 years in the future whether they're okay with never having lived.

Your mother wanted an abortion. She asked you. Would you say yes or no?

[OverMind]

It has nothing to do with religion.

This is the 'Religion' topic. Everything I am arguing for is in such a context. If this has nothing to do with religion, then you're in the wrong place.

As such, I will continue with my arguments.

The Catholic Church, back in the day, was more concerned about saving souls than people having children. It was more respectable to remain a virgin for life.

Okay, so are you admitting that the church itself opposes the 'natural order of things'?

You claimed previously that it is natural for 'every creature' to reproduce, yet religion itself puts up certain restrictions (as I've listed an example).

Don't like the priest one? What about during the 1500s when boys were castrated before puberty with the intention of preserving their voice so they could sing in the Catholic church's choirs. Even the pope of the time supported this.

This doesn't seem very natural to me since these boys were never able to reproduce which, according to you, is the 'natural order of things'. So, in the context of sex and reproduction then, why does the church say its okay for some unnatural things to happen (as I've illustrated) but vehemently argues against others (abortion, contraceptives)?

Are not the restrictions they put up contradictory to nature?


And many people do consider a fetus to be human. I believe its DNA would say "human".

I don't quite understand. Are you stating that all you need is the presence of human DNA for something to be considered human?


I don't think abortions are ethical, but if you didn't give birth to a living, breathing child, you were never a parent.

Fair enough. Like I said, I never disputed this position.

Your mother wanted an abortion. She asked you. Would you say yes or no?

I'd be fine with it.

[AllisonWalker]

Overmind, I'm not Catholic. Make fun of the Catholicism all you want.

I don't quite understand. Are you stating that all you need is the presence of human DNA for something to be considered human?Yes.

[HolyShadow]

I'd be fine with it.
You're taking up my air in this world. Therefore, you are hurting my ability to live.

Kill yourself now, please.

________________

Then let me ask you this: Put yourself in the original position, and then ask yourself.

If you can sacrifice one life to drastically improve another, should you?

[OverMind]

Yes.

So ... a test tube just containing human DNA is human?


If you can sacrifice one life to drastically improve another, should you?

In a general sense, I wouldn't think so.

But, I don't agree with you that the unborn child to be aborted is human 'life', so this question doesn't apply.

[HolyShadow]

In a general sense, I wouldn't think so.

But, I don't agree with you that the unborn child to be aborted is human 'life', so this question doesn't apply.
Do you think it has the potential for human life if raised properly?

If it has the potential, then it does apply. You are effectively sacrificing life that is technically already in progress in order to improve another person's life.

[AllisonWalker]

So ... a test tube just containing human DNA is human?





Test tube DNA doesn't have its own heart beat.

[HolyShadow]

I think what Allison means is that the combination of a human sperm and human egg is what constitutes a human being; not one or the other.

[OverMind]

If it has the potential, then it does apply.

That's a matter of opinion. My sperm also has the "potential" to be apart of life. So does the unfertilized egg which is ejected after a woman's period.

But, I wouldn't call them 'human life' in the fullest sense.

Test tube DNA doesn't have its own heart beat.

Okay, so what criteria establish human life?

So far, we've got human DNA, and a heart beat. Anything else?

[AllisonWalker]

I think what Allison means is that the combination of a human sperm and human egg is what constitutes a human being; not one or the other.

This. Once the fetus could be considered a premie if it was born prematurely, I consider it a living being.

[HolyShadow]

That's a matter of opinion. My sperm also has the "potential" to be apart of life. So does the unfertilized egg which is ejected after a woman's period.

But, I wouldn't call them 'human life' in the fullest sense.
Unfortunately, it doesn't at that point.

The vast majority of your sperm that will be ejaculated do NOT have the potential to survive long enough to be considered human.

The same goes for the egg.

However, once an egg is fertilized, you can compare it to the amount of sperm that has been ejaculated. In terms of pure numbers, it's vastly less than a percent of your sperm that completes its actual purpose.

At that point, the chance of that fertilized egg could eventually live is significantly larger.

And playing by this...

Is it wrong to masturbate and ejaculate with zero chance of fertilizing an egg for each individual sperm when each individual sperm has an insanely low chance when having sex with a woman?

I have to say no. It isn't quite as wrong. The chance of it making a difference to any individual sperm is incredibly low. Each potential life within us is so dramatically low at THAT point that it doesn't matter to any individual life. When you take away individuality, then it's much more like taking a gun and firing into a crowd, rather than assassinating a single target.

It's wrong to take the gun and fire into a crowd, killing a single target. However, it's worse to actually try to kill a specific target-- especially if it can't fight back.

But I digress.

To take away something's future and remove its existence from yours and everyone else's life, turning them into nothing more than a memory and ashes in the wind...

THAT is the true nature of death.

The unborn baby can undergo death. Its existence was a factor. It had a future. Its future was supposed to be one of a sentient being, brought about by nature. Now it is dust, memory, and nonexistence.

To cause the death of something is murder, no matter how you look at it.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I don't feel that religion itself even lives up to adhering to 'absolute truths'. In the past, the Catholic church disapproved of simply being homosexual, let alone the act. This is best illustrated by Aquinas' position that being homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. The current position of the Church condones homosexuality (not the act, but being homosexual). Yet, this viewpoint differs from the previous one. This doesn't seem like a very 'absolute' position to me.

Of course, if morality is malleable, as I have suggested, then it makes sense. The Church simply sought to catch up with the times.

As such, I'm not convinced that an 'absolute truth' exists.

Even priests? If it is so natural, why would it be sinful for, say, a Catholic priest to marry and have children?

It has nothing to do with religion. The Catholic Church, back in the day, was more concerned about saving souls than people having children. It was more respectable to remain a virgin for life.

Okay, so are you admitting that the church itself opposes the 'natural order of things'?

You claimed previously that it is natural for 'every creature' to reproduce, yet religion itself puts up certain restrictions (as I've listed an example).

Don't like the priest one? What about during the 1500s when boys were castrated before puberty with the intention of preserving their voice so they could sing in the Catholic church's choirs. Even the pope of the time supported this.

This doesn't seem very natural to me since these boys were never able to reproduce which, according to you, is the 'natural order of things'. So, in the context of sex and reproduction then, why does the church say its okay for some unnatural things to happen (as I've illustrated) but vehemently argues against others (abortion, contraceptives)?

Are not the restrictions they put up contradictory to nature?

My heeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadd... SO MANY QUESTIONS AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS D:

*ahem*

1. Just because the Catholic Church does not always know what absolute truth is, it doesn't mean that there's no absolute truth. I am curious to know Thomas Aquinas' exact words, though.

Also, being homosexual probably had different contexts back then than it does now. As far as I know, it's only ever been considered a sin if you had homosexual sex; perhaps that was all the evidence there was for "being" homosexual in the first place - I don't know for certain, but it's possible.

2. Priests are not allowed to marry in the Catholic Church except under special circumstances where a married Protestant minister were to convert to Catholicism - in that circumstance, he is allowed to be ordained a priest and be married at the same time.

For the rest of them, in order to understand why priests cannot marry, it is important to understand that the tradition of priests not being allowed to marry is a discipline, as opposed to doctrine or dogma.

Discipline: NOT infallible rules of behavior, binding on all Catholics while propagated, designed with the intent to keep believers "on the straight and narrow". Includes Lenten rules of fasting & priestly celibacy. Can be relaxed, altered, or abolished. link (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1704694&postcount=5) (by the way, it's David Currie, not Scott Currie. The poster made a mistake in the name).

That being said, first of all if a priest wanted to get married, he wouldn't be able to do so in the Catholic Church unless he officially decided that he didn't want to be a priest anymore (and we'll skip the legistics of all that for now). If he decided to get married legally while still being a priest, then he would be sinning because - well, think of it this way - if you were already married to someone but you decided to marry someone else before divorcing the other person, do you think that's wrong in any way? Similar concept with the priest getting married while still being a priest thing.

3. As for the natural order of things argument, Jesus says in Matthew 19:12, "Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

Therefore, it is OK to "go against the natural order of things" in certain situations.

4. The Catholic Church has made mistakes. Not all the popes were all that great, unfortunately.
When they wanted higher voices to be sung in church, they took certain scripture passages about women not being allowed to speak or sing in church out of context, so they thought that castrating them was necessary. They defended this practice with other scripture passages taken out of context (one of them being Matthew 19:12).

Obviously Catholics don't castrate boys today... in fact it's not even allowed.

And before anyone says anything about the pope, first know that the pop is infallible which does NOT mean that the pope never makes mistakes or anything like that - because even the best popes make mistakes; that's why they go to confession every day. Being infallible simply means that they cannot change doctrine or dogma. Castration was simply a practice, not even discipline.

...at this rate, I'm not even going to touch on the abortion issue in here.

Except I will say this: There are atheists and agnostics who are opposed to abortion because they believe that science has proved that unborn fetuses are human beings. Anyone who knows anything about fetal development knows that it's not just a "clump of cells."

You CAN'T effectively compare a developing embryo with random human DNA in a test tube. That just goes against science.

[Oath]

Religion, is something humans made cause we were arrogant at a time and needed explanations, I'm Roman Catholic, or raised as one anyways, I get greatly annoyed by Christians and other religious followers who put religion above all, and put the bibles word above all
I believe there is a God, i believe Jesus is Jesus and for who was know for, i like Jesus =)
God made the 10 Commandments therefore they are the only scriptures that should be followed, The Bible was made by humans, therefore should be interpenetrated loosely

I don't having an exterior force telling me how i should live my life, therefore I am not fond of religion

[HolyShadow]

Religion, is something humans made cause we were arrogant at a time and needed explanations, I'm Roman Catholic, or raised as one anyways, I get greatly annoyed by Christians and other religious followers who put religion above all, and put the bibles word above all
I believe there is a God, i believe Jesus is Jesus and for who was know for, i like Jesus =)
God made the 10 Commandments therefore they are the only scriptures that should be followed, The Bible was made by humans, therefore should be interpenetrated loosely

I don't having an exterior force telling me how i should live my life, therefore I am not fond of religion
Says the guy with a girlfriend...

[OverMind]

1. Just because the Catholic Church does not always know what absolute truth is, it doesn't mean that there's no absolute truth. I am curious to know Thomas Aquinas' exact words, though.

No one knows it because it probably doesn't exist.


Also, being homosexual probably had different contexts back then than it does now. As far as I know, it's only ever been considered a sin if you had homosexual sex; perhaps that was all the evidence there was for "being" homosexual in the first place - I don't know for certain, but it's possible.

How many different contexts are there? As far as I know there's only one; a sexual inclination to the same sex.

I can't find a direct quote of Aquinas, but Aquinas championed "Natural Law". From wikipedia:

The most influential theologian of the Medieval period was Saint Thomas Aquinas, regarded by Catholics as a Doctor of the Church. His moral theology contained a strong element of teleological natural law. On his view, not all things to which a person might be inclined are "natural" in the morally relevant sense; rather, only the inclination to the full and proper expression of the human nature, and inclinations which align with that inclination, are natural. Contrary inclinations are perversions of the natural in the sense that they do seek a good, but in a way destructive of good.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity_and_homosexuality

He wasn't only talking about homosexual sex. He was also targetting those that were homosexual - regardless of whether they acted on the instinct or not - and called it a sin.

This position obviously differs from today's but, my point, the church hasn't held a consistent viewpoint. And that's okay and all, and I even admire their attempts at modernization (which fall short of the goal, but they're trying), but this is definitely not an absolute position.


2. Priests are not allowed to marry in the Catholic Church except under special circumstances where a married Protestant minister were to convert to Catholicism - in that circumstance, he is allowed to be ordained a priest and be married at the same time.

I hear it's because not many people are too inclined these days to live a life of celibacy.


For the rest of them, in order to understand why priests cannot marry, it is important to understand that the tradition of priests not being allowed to marry is a discipline, as opposed to doctrine or dogma.

link (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1704694&postcount=5) (by the way, it's David Currie, not Scott Currie. The poster made a mistake in the name).

Fair enough.


3. As for the natural order of things argument, Jesus says in Matthew 19:12, "Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

Therefore, it is OK to "go against the natural order of things" in certain situations.

And what of the child abuse cases that have come about because of priests?

Clearly, these priests have shown that humans are sexual regardless of their dedication to God. Suppressing this, perhaps, has lead to the deviant behaviour in the first place.

As such, would these scandals not be a result of the church going against the "natural order of things"?


4. The Catholic Church has made mistakes. Not all the popes were all that great, unfortunately.
When they wanted higher voices to be sung in church, they took certain scripture passages about women not being allowed to speak or sing in church out of context, so they thought that castrating them was necessary. They defended this practice with other scripture passages taken out of context (one of them being Matthew 19:12).

Obviously Catholics don't castrate boys today... in fact it's not even allowed.

And before anyone says anything about the pope, first know that the pop is infallible which does NOT mean that the pope never makes mistakes or anything like that - because even the best popes make mistakes; that's why they go to confession every day. Being infallible simply means that they cannot change doctrine or dogma. Castration was simply a practice, not even discipline.

It definitely doesn't make me confident in the religion. If they've made mistakes in the past (and they definitely have), who is to say that they won't make mistakes now or in the future?


Except I will say this: There are atheists and agnostics who are opposed to abortion because they believe that science has proved that unborn fetuses are human beings. Anyone who knows anything about fetal development knows that it's not just a "clump of cells."

And, there's probably some Christians who support abortion. So what?


You CAN'T effectively compare a developing embryo with random human DNA in a test tube. That just goes against science.

If you read the posts more closely, I was attempting to construct a counter-example to AllisonWalker's position.

Specifically, she said, in one of her posts, that all you need is human DNA for something to be human. And then she lopped on a bunch of other stuff to support that very, very shaky assertion once I called her out on it.

[AllisonWalker]

Oh please. There was nothing wrong with what I said.

[AllisonWalker]

Right...You go ahead with your hating, hater.

[Kochiha]

Actually, the thing is that I'm rather fed up with religious discussions and all the bullshit associated with them. So we all have different beliefs. Shut up and deal with it.

[AllisonWalker]

I have nothing against different religions, I'm just sick of all the Christian hating.

You get over it, please. You don't see Sally and I saying "We hate Buddhists" or Wiccans, Muslims, Jews, or anyone else not like us.

It's this discrimination you have against us that needs to stop.

[Kochiha]

Tell that to SR.

[AllisonWalker]

If you have a problem with SR, go pm him about it or talk to a mod. There's no reason to attack people for what they believe in.

[Kochiha]

I never was. I'm making fun of how ridiculous all of this bickering gets by acting pompous and posting imagery that's generally taken as just shocking, minus the fact that the people broadcasting such imagery are totally serioius.
I don't hate Christians; there's way too many of them for me to. It's the Christianity I don't like.

[AllisonWalker]

Well, I don't like the Old Testament, but I love Jesus' teachings. I also don't like all of the things that are said in the bible, because of the times (like the sexism), but I try to keep it in perspective.

[Kochiha]

I think your problem is that you're taking something that wasn't ever meant for you in particular FAR too personally...

[AllisonWalker]

I'm a Christian. How is it not personal?

If I said something like, "I dislike Judaism, so let me post this random video with people who dislike it almost as much as I do!", I'd probably get banned.

Think about it.

[Kochiha]

I rest my case.

[HolyShadow]

*Contemplates posting "Hitler's Education For Death"*

*Knows I'd get banned*

*Doesn't do so*

Kochiha, I'm not a Christian, as such. Using me as an excuse to hate Christianity can be just as valid as using me as an excuse to hate atheists. That is, not at all.

[Kochiha]

Everybody is missing the point because all they want to do is argue...

[AllisonWalker]

That none of this matters? Oh, we all know that.

[HolyShadow]

Everybody is missing the point because all they want to do is argue...
You're not setting a very good example of an argument pacifist.

Let us have war. Let you have peace.

But don't talk about peace while waging war. Hypocrite.

[AllisonWalker]

Sometimes I wish I was Catholic so I could do confession.

I always wanted to do that.

[Kochiha]

That none of this matters? Oh, we all know that.

Then why do you attempt to use your beliefs to generate a sense of offense within yourself rather than knowing that in your eyes you are in the right and no one else may tell you otherwise?

[AllisonWalker]

Because I am offended and I want to get my point cross. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

[HolyShadow]

Then why do you attempt to use your beliefs to generate a sense of offense within yourself rather than knowing that in your eyes you are in the right and no one else may tell you otherwise?
Because arguing with someone who refuses to understand the other side before criticizing them and posting prejudiced content gains nothing for either side.

I suggest you don't post any more prejudiced content or I'll report you and see what the mods think about this.

[Kochiha]

Because I am offended and I want to get my point cross. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

So then it DOES matter to you. You ARE missing the point.

[HolyShadow]

So then it DOES matter to you. You ARE missing the point.
Of course you'll ignore the stronger points, attack the weaker, and believe that you've won.

Pathetic.

[AllisonWalker]

When you break the rules by posting nonsense, yes I care.

Do I care about your personal beliefs? No.

[Kochiha]

Of course you'll ignore the stronger points, attack the weaker, and believe that you've won.

Pathetic.

I'm ignoring the points not in my initial argument, which was that no matter how many threads go up about religion, it's only going to end up in hurt feelings and angry forumgoers, which in turn makes for generally snappy personalities that tend to take EVERYTHING they see personally and seriously, even when someone like me comes along and shoves the most provocative thing ever into somebody's face and make an equally provocative statement. Such a great amount of provocation should be assumed to be an obvious ploy for attention; the fact that you two took it in full shows just how much these religious discussions have caused you to become inappreciative of those with beliefs other than your own, even animostic. I may not be a Satanist, but they seem to offend you, despite the fact that you two claim to be tolerant.
This is merely my way of saying I'm fed up with trying to look like the smart fellow in the religious threads which in all honesty do little more than breed such hostile environments. The fact that you two are offended by it is your own fault.

[Face]

It's late and I need to sleep, I'm locking this thread for now.

[Underling]

Thank God.