Biometrics In Schools.

[Insane]

Recently, in my school, there has been an attempt to install biometric fingerprint scanners in order to pay for food.

This has incited a minor rebellion amongst some of the more aware members of the school (myself included), due to that we were not told much about the issue before many of the school had their fingerprints demanded from them.

I am interested on hearing your thoughts on the issue.

[EdBat]

Sounds like a huge waste of cash to me. :V

[Insane]

I agree, but after doing some more research into the matter I discovered that the school would be payed by the government to install this system.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Sounds like a huge waste of cash to me. :V

IAWTC.

why not pay for school lunch with ordinary cash or a paper card-punch system (for those nerds that get their lunch moneys stole)?

[EdBat]

I agree, but after doing some more research into the matter I discovered that the school would be payed by the government to install this system.
Which would be using my tax money.

[Insane]

We currently use a card system.
Which is simple, and effective.
And the school still want to change over.

I have a couple of friends who have written essays one of which was submitted to the school on the matter.

[Insane]

Which would be using my tax money.

Provided you're English.

[EdBat]

Provided you're English.

Oh, I'm American.
In that case, go for it.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

We currently use a card system.
Which is simple, and effective.
And the school still want to change over.

I have a couple of friends who have written essays one of which was submitted to the school on the matter.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

what was the arguement in your friend's paper?

[Insane]

Oh, I'm American.
In that case, go for it.

Damn you...

But seriously...
It's a really bad idea.
Costs money and the government get ever closer to the prison state they're after.

[Insane]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

what was the arguement in your friend's paper?

I'll find a link so you can read it yourself.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

I'll find a link so you can read it yourself.

I don't need a link.
Just tell me if your friend was for or against it.

Even though I'm not English, I still say it's a waste of time and Money.

[DarthWario]

We got this installed for keeping track of the spending in the canteen. We used to have cards, now we have thumbprints.

Also, they open the main door.

Seems redundant to me, but at least it means the lunch queue moves quicker.

[AsterGray]

Redundant equipment is redundant.
Along with this post, but w/e.

[EdBat]

Damn you...

But seriously...
It's a really bad idea.
Costs money and the government get ever closer to the prison state they're after.

Yeah, does seem a bit Big Brotherish to me.

[Insane]

Exactly, and the friends are against it.

[DarthWario]

I prefer the good old days of cash. The canteen had better chips and Dr Pepper back then.

[AsterGray]

I prefer the good old days of cash. The canteen had better chips and Dr Pepper back then.

this.

although my school went healthy waay before the cards were introduced...

[DarthWario]

It was so long ago I barely remember.

All I know is thanks to Jamie Oliver, the food on Fridays is now overly greasy and the chips taste like cardboard.

[Insane]

I prefer the good old days of cash. The canteen had better chips and Dr Pepper back then.

Yeah, the olden days...

TURKEY TWIZZLERS

[DarthWario]

Yeah, the olden days...

TURKEY TWIZZLERS

Never did have those. Ever.

[Insane]

They were so awesome.

I used to get them in the supermarket as well...

So good.

[DarthWario]

Huh. I don't really fancy them anymore.

Anyway, I still get some half-decent pasta so thats a plus.

Although the only fizzy drink is now Appletiser.

I now fucking hate appletiser.

[Insane]

We don't have fizzy drinks.
We had appletiser for a bit...

[AsterGray]

no fizzy drinks. for 5 years...

[Insane]

BACK ON TOPIC OF BIOMETRICS

[DarthWario]

Yes. Otherwise JR will lock us.

'tis a huge waste of money, but its gotta be wasted someone. The government has a quota to keep up.

[Insane]

Yeah, but the school doesn't need it.

And the government are doing it to try and create a "prison state".
Where they know everything and they control everything.

[DarthWario]

Really? I don't see it.

Too much work. Besides, Britains never had a revolution so we're primed for one.

[MrsSallyBakura]

And the government are doing it to try and create a "prison state".
Where they know everything and they control everything.

Has everyone forgotten about the book 1984?

It seems like major countries of the world are trying to institute this "big government" thing despite the fact that the people have been warned against it.

The government exists to help, not to control.

[DarthWario]

Never did read that, which is a shame.

[Insane]

We're rebelling.

[DarthWario]

Are we? Well then get me a gun, a Redcoat Jacket and a rapier sword.

Also, explosives. Flour and matches will do.

[Insane]

Has everyone forgotten about the book 1984?

It seems like major countries of the world are trying to institute this "big government" thing despite the fact that the people have been warned against it.

The government exists to help, not to control.

1984!
Thank you.

1984 epitomises the "Big Brother" state that will be the ultimate result of this information.

A prison state will be the final result.

[berober04]

Let me make my point for the use of Biometrics:

We've had it in our school for a year now and it really does help with speeding up the queues, which I assume is the main reason since, yes, cards would be acceptable.

They haven't used them for any other purpose at all this year and we can still use cash, so we are given another option of payment, it does speed up queues and means you are guaranteed to have money on your account at all times, unlike if you left your card at home.

The info they take is hardly threatening. All they take is a photo and fingerprint for authentication, it's not even on the same server as your school records, so anyone hacking into the school won't find it, and even then, there isn't many places where fingerprints are needed in England.

I hear where you're coming from, but I think you should at least trial the process and if you are still feeling threatened, then take it to them.

Just my opinion though, thought it'd be cool to get a view from someone who has had it happen to them already

[MrsSallyBakura]

And, of course, it's starting at the schools.

If this fingerprint thing gets initiated, other government things will follow, and maybe Americans and other governments will see the fingerprint thing and go, "Hey, what a great idea! Let's waste our money and make our schools do this too!"

EDIT: Now I just read berober's post. I see where you're coming from. I'm not actually a paranoid anti-government buffoon, in case any of you are getting at that from my posts, but from what Insane was saying, it didn't look like anything really needed to be fixed.

[Insane]

Nothing needs changing.
And yet they do.

To a system that will break down for sure...

What happens if the master scan is done with a dirty finger?

[DarthWario]

Nothing needs changing.
And yet they do.

To a system that will break down for sure...

What happens if the master scan is done with a dirty finger?

Then they weren't doing their job properly.

[Insane]

Then they weren't doing their job properly.

What if the finger is dirty when you try and use it to get food...

[berober04]

They just ask, try again and I hope you realise "Hmm, maybe my finger is dirty..."

[DarthWario]

What if the finger is dirty when you try and use it to get food...

You can say your name and class and they let you order.

[AsterGray]

Seems like a lot of hassle to me...

Oh, to go back to the good old days when one exchanged predetermined tokens of currency for goods of an equal value....

[DarthWario]

I prefer bartering with beads

[Fat1Fared]

Has everyone forgotten about the book 1984?

It seems like major countries of the world are trying to institute this "big government" thing despite the fact that the people have been warned against it.

The government exists to help, not to control.

one of my fav books, and trust me, I'm constantly bleeding on about things like this to my fellow englishmen, IE the terrorism acts are complete breach of human rights and construtitional beleifs,

however finger scanners for schools, well I would think Insane is joking with me if wasn't for fact I know my goverment:-

=Identary Cards=Not wanted and cost country 12billion, before finally whole thing was scraped
=Terrorism acts used by govermentual to protect police who beat and killed a man who was nothing more than paper seller, but now even used by counicl reseach departements to study how long poeple spend in showers <WTF>
=Trying to get away with Iran independent study, by doing it in private
=Release of power of Bank of England, so as to allow banks self regulaition in Britian
=Constutitional Reform Act, which has destroyed a lot of power that Judges had in Parliement, leaving normal poeple even more at their mercy
=And lets not foget, that Brown is an unelected PM that no one wants

Seriouslly, I hate them and all they stand for, but I hate the fact that poeple like my Mum don't even vote more. They say no point and then complain about things like this, (this is why I want to be an MP, it is only way I stop these injustices)

And I don't care if sound like nut, this kind of thing needs to be stoped and we need poeple who not only care about what meant to do as Politicans, but also who have a brain in their head,

As for this itself, removing the inethical things and money involved, why is it needed?

[DarthWario]

Its a wonderful point in democracy for Britain.

-Brown is unelected
-All the MPs are under suspicion from the expenses scandal
-The BNP is representing us with MEPs in the European thing
-Iran is currently better at this democracy malarkey, with people demanding a recount

[Fat1Fared]

Alas, it is sad day for us, but then we don't live in a democracy, we live in first past post elected dictatorship (a judges words not mine.)
=The problem is, most english love to moan about it, but will they ever get up and do anything? No, they just take it, I mean look at that guy who was killed by police, we had few moaning reports in papers for week and then everyone forgot about it, we need to stand up now and showing them we ain't going to take it anymore

I mean I'm not saying them most active political person going, but at lest I joined my Uni's political soecity and got involved their. Once I get a career, I plan to go into Constitutual law, me thinks (well that or innational trading)

As for BMP, well them being 4th most powerful in England and their scotlish counterparts being main party in scotland, shows just how bad things are getting

[DarthWario]

The BNP isn't actually doing better, its just that so few people voted in the european elections that the amount that were already voting for them were good enough for them to get MEPs.

I'm not proud to say my dad was one of them.


Anyway, the government isn't wholly problematic. The day when regime change is an absolute must the British public will either stay out of it or rise up, like in the days of old.

[Fat1Fared]

The BNP isn't actually doing better, its just that so few people voted in the european elections that the amount that were already voting for them were good enough for them to get MEPs.

I'm not proud to say my dad was one of them.


Anyway, the government isn't wholly problematic. The day when regime change is an absolute must the British public will either stay out of it or rise up, like in the days of old.

Indeed, I will admit, I failed to vote in European vote, but I have an exuse, I was between homes at time and so I couldn't find where I was meant to go to vote <facepalm>

However they are doing better overal, their geting 2% growth each year <yikes>, but don't worry about your dad, that is his choice, not yours, so no one should judge you (or him in some ways) for it

[DarthWario]

Its a shame. When the world starts to go downhill people need a scapegoat. Every country does it, and I really wish people would stop blaming and just get to the solution already.

And I didn't vote 'cos I can't, simple as.

Anyway, stay off politics and noone judges you for who you vote for anyway.

[Insane]

http://www.*************/note.php?note_id=229192905439&ref=mf

The aforementioned essay on the subject.

[DarthWario]

http://www.*************/note.php?note_id=229192905439&ref=mf

The aforementioned essay on the subject.

Bah. I don't use facebook, and I have no intention to start now.

[Insane]

Fair enough.

I'll see if I can find a copy not on facebook

[AsterGray]

http://www.*************/note.php?note_id=229192905439&ref=mf

The aforementioned essay on the subject.

Cannot read, just sends me to the home page....

Probably need to be on the person's friend list or something...

[Insane]

The new electronic identity system records the child?s name, tutor group, photo, account balance, thumbprint template or PIN number and meal entitlement. The scheme was suggested in the 2008/9 school development plan as a means for improving attendance, to meet targets. It is planned to be used in the canteen, the registration process, the library, and access control to buildings of the school. As all of this will be collected in a central database, the school is able to build up a profile of students by monitoring their food habits, reading habits (both individually and by ethnicity and gender) and movements around school. The practise has been widely criticised by both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, and also in the House of Lords as intrusive, alarming and "completely astonishing". The system is expensive, unnecessary, insecure and invasive.

The School consulted little with parents on the issue. The School writes that ?all students and staff will be informed of and given training on how to use the system.? If this is supposed to work closely with parents, and make them feel safe about their child, why was there no proper consultation, and why were parents not asked to give their explicit written opt-in consent before any children could be fingerprinted? What advice did the school receive from the manufacturer and others before deciding on this policy? Teachers are also on the system, and at least 3 teachers are known to be refusing to have a fingerprint.

Letters were sent out on Friday the 3rd of July, which it has recently emerged the headmaster did not write, and fingerprints began to be taken on Wednesday the 8th of July, which is less than a week after the notification. The time when the school has chosen to taken scans is the end of the current academic year and the very start of the next one. This is allows very little time for public complaint to be made. Given that neither the DfES, the Information Commissioner, nor BECTA have to date issued guidelines concerning the human rights implications of the use of biometrics in schools, who, prior to the introduction of the system, told the school that it was legal to implement the system without seeking explicit parental consent? As new pupils join the school, will the school regularly seek explicit informed written parental consent before fingerprinting them (as recommended by the Information Commissioner on 30 January 2007)?

The School writes: After the new system has been operating for a while, we hope to enhance the school?s ?healthy eating policy?. When the food is selected on the canteen server?s keypad, it will also register points for a balanced, healthy and nutritious school dinner. There may even be some recognition for the highest scoring students.? The tone of this statement is Orwellian, with the monitoring of food habits and the rewarding of ?healthy eating?. What business is it of the school how the child eats? It is surely a matter for the parent to decide this for their child.

Some systems cost over ?20,000, with schools being strongly encouraged with financial incentives by central government. In March 2007, the British government was considering fingerprinting of children aged 11 to 15 as part of new passport and ID card (the latter having been recently implemented in the UK), also lifting opposition for privacy concerns. All fingerprints taken would be cross-checked against prints from 900,000 unsolved crimes. The Government has the power to demand encryption keys from the system supplier, under the terms of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 Part III. Government security experts have successfully hacked the fingerprint scanners used in schools. Who, under existing legislation, including the Children Act and the government's stated commitment to widespread data sharing, may access the child's biometric template and associated data as stored on the system? The police? Social services? Civil servants? Technicians from the manufacturer carrying out routine maintenance? Under the Data Protection Act, which the school has said the system adheres to, information can be shared with all involved relevant parties, but we have not been informed as to the nature of these parties. We have not even been informed as to which company is implementing the system.
The fingerprint scanning system is almost exactly the same as the police, security services and governments which all use fingerprint templates (the equivalent of fingerprints) to identify criminals. Phil Booth, of No2ID writes: "Are we sending our kids to school or to prison? We wouldn?t accept fingerprinting for adults without informed consent so it is utterly outrageous that children as young as three are being targeted." The school writes that ?they do not capture a complete image. This means that the original finger/thumb print cannot be reconstructed from the data.? But this is a red herring; all fingerprint systems now use algorithms derived from a fingerprint, rather than the fingerprint itself. Few systems capture the entire fingerprint, including those used by criminal investigations. Is the school aware that this is misleading? Would the school permit 'fishing expeditions' in the stored biometric data (e.g. if the local police were trying to find a match for a crime mark they suspected may have been left by a child from the school)? What would the school do if such a search revealed TWO probable matches? There is a critical security danger of permanent irreversible identity theft. The child doesn't learn value of their own biometric identity, and when to protect it.
Where fingerprinting is used for school registration, what backup strategy will the school implement to ensure that if any part of the system fails before registration is complete, a full and accurate record of those children at school will be available in the event of an emergency evacuation at the start of the day, e.g. in the event of a fire? A PIN number is clearly open to abuse. If registration is monitored by the scheme, then surely children could be tempted to tell one their friends to sign them in with their PIN code if they were playing truant?
There is limited information provided and we do not know about the company implementing the system and its promises, there is no information at all on which company is doing it or when data will be erased if at all. Can the school guarantee that the data (both photographic data and fingerprint templates), including any backup copies, will be promptly removed as soon as the child leaves school, or if the parent changes their mind at any point, by an approved professional data cleansing company as required by the Data Protection Act? Will the data-cleansing company certify in writing that the biometric information has been satisfactorily removed? (This requirement was confirmed by the Information Commissioner on 9 Feb 2007.) Is the computer holding the data connected to the school network and/or the internet? What active measures are taken to ensure the biometric data cannot be accessed by third parties via any such connection(s)? Given that the encryption used by the system cannot possibly be guaranteed for the entire lifetime of my child, and that fingerprint templates from different manufacturers are compatible and interchangeable in accordance with INCITS 398 or NISTIR 6529, will the school accept full liability if my child's biometric template stored on the system is compromised at some future point? Because the data is held on school computers in relatively insecure buildings, its security cannot be guaranteed. Burglary and theft from schools is not uncommon, and the growing importance of biometrics is likely to make databases that hold biometric data a target for organised crime. Bearing in mind that the child's biometric template remains valuable for their entire lifetime, since it can't ever be changed, where is the biometric data stored, where are backups stored, and what security procedures are in place to prevent unauthorised copying of, or any type of access to this data? How will the school know if the data has been copied? What procedures would be followed if the main computer or backup system storing the data were stolen?
What we hope to do
We hope that this letter has raised some of the issues that should have been discussed in an open public debate on the system. We call for the immediate halting of plans until parents are properly consulted. Consent forms should have been taken before any fingerprints were taken. We encourage parents to contact school and/or the media to find out more information and express their views. If anyone has not read the two letters from the school they are available on the school website. Contact your MP.

There is a legal right to refuse both PIN and Print, and we encourage people to use it.

Key Dates
Friday 10 July 2009: Fingerprinting of lower years to commence.
Thursday 10th September 2009: System to go live.
Friday 18th September 2009: All pupils will have their photograph taken.

[Fat1Fared]

Its a shame. When the world starts to go downhill people need a scapegoat. Every country does it, and I really wish people would stop blaming and just get to the solution already.

And I didn't vote 'cos I can't, simple as.

Anyway, stay off politics and noone judges you for who you vote for anyway.

very true, that is what Cameron did to his whole party's old guard, in order to survivie the experses scandal and rebuilf tonies (but scapegoating is way they do it, as none have guts to stay and stand up for their actions or beliefs

the problem is whole system needs reforming, it was made over 400 years ago and is so out of date, leads to things like Expenses scandals being legal, and the politicans whether a minster or normal MP, have scary ethics and their is no control or accountability to them, you know something is wrong when the White Middle Class unelected judges care more for constitutional defense, then MP's who only care about how to make lifes easier (though, there is one or two who are good poeple on back benchs, but these lack the backstabbing nature to ever get to top)

[DarthWario]

The School writes: After the new system has been operating for a while, we hope to enhance the school?s ?healthy eating policy?. When the food is selected on the canteen server?s keypad, it will also register points for a balanced, healthy and nutritious school dinner. There may even be some recognition for the highest scoring students.? The tone of this statement is Orwellian, with the monitoring of food habits and the rewarding of ?healthy eating?. What business is it of the school how the child eats? It is surely a matter for the parent to decide this for their child.
.

Thats what those points are for?

Ruddy hell. None of the canteen staff even know what those points are for at my school.

I have 460 though.

[DarthWario]

I really like that letter/essay.

It raises the right points and I hope to hell it was put forward.

[HolyShadow]

It's a machine. It's going to have errors and it's going to fail every now and then. If you put your finger on it and nothing's wrong with your fingerprint, there's a chance that it'll have a failure. All machines are like that, regardless of the cause of the failure.

If that happens, couldn't you be locked out of the school, or go without eating? In addition, aren't there ways to lift a fingerprint and apply it to something like that, allowing you to access all personal information of another student?

Or suppose your finger is dirty and your print ends up on the damn thing. Couldn't someone lift that fingerprint and use it to frame you for crimes? They could certainly try.

Beyond that, assume that the machines break at one point, whether due to vandalism or wear and tear. Won't they just have to dish out another x amount of cash, taking even more away from the budget than the initial cost? Or suppose they have to hire a technician to repair it? How much will that cost?

Who thought this was a good idea? Really.

[Insane]

Apparently, the British Government.

[AsterGray]

I love my country.