Treaty of Lisbon

[Spoofs3]

THis treaty, Origionally proposed in 2007 and finally signed off by all EU members in late 2009.
The treaty was passed by all EU countries governments but was delayed due to a refurendum by the Irish people who voted No and the Czech president who refused to sign the document presented to him.

Origionally thought to be the destroyer of Democracy and the breakdown of freedom of speech, (By being part of the only country to actually have a refurendum on it, I can say that there was alot of this) and messages such as "Irish Democracy, 1916-2009" showing Heroes of the 1916 Easter Rising, others declaring "They fought for your Freedom, Don't give it away" and the most common proclaiming "Minimum wage, 1 Euro 28 Cents? Vote No"

Now that is has been passed and in use for 3 days (Put into use on December 1st, 2009)
What do you guys think will be the future for the new EU?
Will it truely destroy the hope of democracy and degenerate into a Facist dictatorship as European countries across the board such as Germany and Italy are so shocked of their own past about or will it blossom into a new world power that can combat countries such as China or the US from controlling world Policy.
Discuss

Treaty of Lisbon, Main site (http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/index_en.htm)

[ggctuk]

Does the second Irish Neverendum not speak in itself? It's the "Vote until you get it right" treaty - it's meant to take away our ability to govern ourself.

[Spoofs3]

Does the second Irish Neverendum not speak in itself? It's the "Vote until you get it right" treaty - it's meant to take away our ability to govern ourself.

Not exactly, THe Irish Second refurendum was a good thing on multiple stances.
1. Because it was only put into place because of the Irish Constitution, A very same constitution which was and still is severly flawed in multiple instances since 1937 when DeVelera drew it up. Meaning? It was the same instance as the Irish Divorce refurendum, Irish Contraception Refurendum, Irish give women the right to vote refurendum (Which they had prior to 1937 constitution), The Irish Recognition of Northern Ireland as a separate state refurendum and many others, THings similar from those to these? Either they were rejected with a majority or they were accepted with a slim majority (All except the Divorce was which only won by 1%) Irish democracy ALWAYS have "Neverendums" as you so put it on things thta involve the constitution because Irish people never seem to want to change the extremily flawed constitution.

2. We do govern ourselves, The Government we elected voted Yes on Lisbon and we should have accepted their decision sooner rather than have such a refurendum. Propaganda was spread (By both sides I must admit) But more common than not, Most of the signs of the No side we almost all propaganda on how it's fascist, How we will become a bad nation, how we will be dictated to.

3. It's not exactly taking away the ability to govern ourselves as every European country still has the ability to govern itself to their own wishes. If you can list any nation that loses entire control of their territory and why it does. I would like to hear.
Besides, it's more of that the European Government can pass laws for the whole of Europe but it still must be passed by the majority of representitives and even at that, Europe does not have powers to change some things, Making it not controlling it entirely

[Fat1Fared]

Does the second Irish Neverendum not speak in itself? It's the "Vote until you get it right" treaty - it's meant to take away our ability to govern ourself.

being a law student, who is annoyed how badly this racks his exam plans, I can say I hate it already :thatface: (actually my uni is being nice and putting only have small amount on it, as changed halfway through the course)

No, but EU law is something I study and know bit about, but too late to write up now, however can say there are good and bad points to it, but my main problem isn't the treaty itself which actually gives Britain more power (though not as much as could have got, if our leaders had brain cell between them) and actually finally gives the Parliament a little power, against the Commissioners and Council of Minsters, as well as getting rid of few out of date or redundant parts of old treaty,

What I actually hate about it, is this very point, it shows everything which is wrong with the EU, it is all about Freedom, until something gets in the way of its true aims, then it willfully ignores and overrides this, until it gets what it wants. Ireland went against the treaty, what does it do? Accept that it isn't what people want, find out why poeple all over Europe are up in arms about it? No they just say to Ireland, you can have this money if join or get kicked out if don't, well done EU, way to show us a great new land of Freedom.

I mean we are told this is treaty is being bought in to make EU more understandable for common man, who the hell is this common man, I specialize in Constitutional law and I struggle at times, to know what hell they are trying to say, so that clearly isn't the main aim. The Aim is and always has been to make a federalist Europe and I fear what this could become, I mean we could if keep going, end up like USA and do I want us to become like USA, do I hell, I would rather remain a weak county than have to be like that and I fear.

Then we find out the Forerunners for its leader are Tony Blair, a man with War Crimes against his name, and a Cezh politician with more than few iffy points to his name

[Spoofs3]

What I actually hate about it, is this very point, it shows everything which is wrong with the EU, it is all about Freedom, until something gets in the way of its true aims, then it willfully ignores and overrides this, until it gets what it wants. Ireland went against the treaty, what does it do? Accept that it isn't what people want, find out why poeple all over Europe are up in arms about it? No they just say to Ireland, you can have this money if join or get kicked out if don't, well done EU, way to show us a great new land of Freedom.

I mean we are told this is treaty is being bought in to make EU more understandable for common man, who the hell is this common man, I specialize in Constitutional law and I struggle at times, to know what hell they are trying to say, so that clearly isn't the main aim. The Aim is and always has been to make a federalist Europe and I fear what this could become, I mean we could if keep going, end up like USA and do I want us to become like USA, do I hell, I would rather remain a weak county than have to be like that and I fear.

Then we find out the Forerunners for its leader are Tony Blair, a man with War Crimes against his name, and a Cezh politician with more than few iffy points to his name

I would like to point out that you cannot speak on behalf of Ireland and what we want. THe reasons that the Irish rejected the treaty was for one... Most people didn't even READ the treaty and a common phrase being spouted out is "If ya don't know, Vote no"
THis is ridiculous to claim we said "No and it means no" Because most people including politicians who are for and against (Including the main man who was encouraging the Yes vote - Taoiseach Brian Cowen) Did not read the treaty.
More is the idiotic propaganda spreaded through the streets of Ireland, If it were fair election they would have left the leaders of 1916 out of it, stopped printing images of cute little red haired girls with green eyes crying saying "Don't kill Ireland"
The refurendum was also projected a second time with talks between the Irish government and the EU and we recieved gaurentees that we will be able to stay a neutral country and keep a representitive (Thanks to Sinn Fein of all parties, God bless ya lads)
Also we were not bribed and threatened and do not claim we were, We voted again. The Irish people weren't threatened to vote yes again and we could have easily voted no again and the subject would have likely not been brought up again due to alreasy existing pressure on the Fine Fail government.
I also for one LOVE the idea of a larger federalist government and the only reason the USA has collapsed into hatred of the world and feels the need to wage a war every second year was because of it's extreme right wing politics.
Let's be honest, with such diversity in the EU and such different cultures throughout Europe, I doubt one nation will be able to dictate another in most matters - A situation which can happen because almost all of the states are the same and have no such different culture to match the difference in European countries. We all have so different politics that I believe if any area in the world can make this work, it is Europe.

And for your last point? The European president...
Sadly I agree... They are thinking of the wrong people, I wish they could at least try think of a good one. Everyone knows there are some good politicians that would make a good president in ONE of the EU nations.

[ggctuk]

It's okay for the Irish as they have opt-outs the UK have never got. And they had a referendum, which the rest of the UK (of which, I am aware, Ireland is not a part of) never got, despite Labour's pledge of one. I don't trust propaganda, no. I trust those legal analysts who have studied the Lisbon Treay in its previous incarnation, the so-called "EU Constitution", and compared it to the Treaty. I trust them when they say that it would remove much of our democratic freedoms.

[Change of Heart]

you said it ggctuk

How can the European Union declare itself an organization supposedly dedicated to 'democratisation' claim as such if all of its member states don't get a say? and as stated Labour pledged a referendum in the UK which is of great amusement and no surprise as they're the best promise breakers. Whether it's referendums or a promise to their partners the Liberal Democrats in 1997 to electoral reform (instead of reforming the national election system, they simply made different election systems for the devolved regions- nice, vague, and cheating...just like Labour).

But I find that Euroscepticism is the right approach. How can the public trust the shadows? how can we say yes to some faceless entity? to some bureaucratic machine capable of eradicating our sovereignty and identities... In fact I'd agree with this one Russian professor, i forget his name you can find him on you tube type in 'EU the New soviet union', he's quite justified in saying as in the USSR they built a new identity a Soviet identity, same as the EU wants you to be 'European'. In the USSR they have gulags to hold their political prisoners, in the EU it's the gulag of political correctness, you're abhored and scorned by society. In fact it's simply bureaucrats and home politicians that simply take all these billions of taxpayers Euros going into the EU to pocket for themselves!

We must not let the European Super State get worse. Already it simply has an ongoing agenda, to consume over and over... it enlargens itself with the former Soviet Bloc and doesn't consolidate itself, and as quoted by the pro-EU UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband who hopes as I quote, "For the EU to hopefully expand into Russia and North Africa and the Middle East". It is as quite feared history repeating itself, Europe feels as America once did to assert itself in a "Manifest Destiny" to expand from Sea (Lisbon in the Atlantic) to shining sea (Vladivostok in the Pacific).

We must act decisively we need someone strong to guide us like Thatcher or Powell against the EU. I love Europe as a community, a family of nations but the EU must go.

Because if we let New Labour do as it has since 1997 secretly destroy our pound to force us to adopt the Euro, to initiate the treaties like Nice and Lisbon and destroy our sacred common laws and self-government. To fake Thatcherism and pretend to be the party of business and the economy...then it shall be the second time as Enoch Powell once said, "It is like watching a nation, busily engaged in heaping up it's own funeral pyre".