The End is Near, Religious Apocalypse discussion here.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

To keep the religious Apocalypse discussion out of AllisonWalker's thread, you may discuss it here.

Thank you.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Religious discussion?

All that Christians know is that Jesus will come again and everyone will die and then everyone will either be in Heaven or Hell.

Well, some Christians believe in more specifics beyond that, but I don't know much about the Rapture or whatever.

And... I don't think that the end is near. Just saying.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Keep in mind my topic title may be a pun and joke on self proclaimed profits always claiming the "End Is Near"

[MrsSallyBakura]

Keep in mind my topic title may be a pun and joke on self proclaimed profits always claiming the "End Is Near"

A joke? In Serious Discussions?

OFF WITH HER HEAD

...

Anyways, I agree that it's silly to proclaim such a thing. Because... nobody knows that for certain.

I saw a video on GodTube once claiming that since 9/11 happened and all these other bad things happened, it means that the world is coming to an end. The only problem with that logic is that bad things have been happening since the beginning of time.

[DaJacksterN]

The world has been about to end for about....I dunno, a couple thousand years now? We're fine. Just fine. Granted we are getting pretty touchy feely with the nukes, but that's our problem. The Apocalypse in which god destroys everything and takes people unto himself isn't going to be happening any time soon.
I remember people who ducked and covered after 9/11, 'Y2K', 6/6/6 (June 6th 2006) and hurricane Katrina. We're still around and kicking. No need to shit our proverbial pants.

[JesusRocks]

Imminence is never the same as immediacy

The end is imminent, not immediate. Which means it could happen at any time, without warning, not necessarily that it is going to happen a definite time soon.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Imminence is never the same as immediacy

The end is imminent, not immediate. Which means it could happen at any time, without warning, not necessarily that it is going to happen a definite time soon.

trufax, trufax

I just don't get the feeling that it'll happen anytime soon. That feeling could be totally wrong, but eh, I'm not claiming that my feeling is science (or religion for that matter).

[Fat1Fared]

Religious discussion?

All that Christians know is that Jesus will come again and everyone will die and then everyone will either be in Heaven or Hell.

Well, some Christians believe in more specifics beyond that, but I don't know much about the Rapture or whatever.

And... I don't think that the end is near. Just saying.

It is interesting you use the word know, which would imply some factual knowledge, I think word believe would be more adequate, aspecially as this seems to be a lot of work for our somewhat benine and Exonerated god

-Just 3 questions though:-

1=Could you say, that you do not feel the end is near because fear it?

2=Doesn't the idea of spliting everyone into heaven and hell somewhat reduntise ultimate forgiveness?

3=What happens if a natural end, beats god to the punch? (And before say, it will all be planned, doesn't the idea of everything being planned, remove free will, I mean if it is preset some insane dictator is going to nuke the earth until nothing is left alive, does that not remove his choice in the matter and if that is true, it means that these somewhat conflicting ideals make at lest half of Christianity wrong, and the rest is suspect enough as it is)

Imminence is never the same as immediacy

The end is imminent, not immediate. Which means it could happen at any time, without warning, not necessarily that it is going to happen a definite time soon.

god sounds like a kid with his homework, always putting it off and leaving rest of us waiting

[Iloveabridged]

I don't care when is END

[MrsSallyBakura]

It is interesting you use the word know, which would imply some factual knowledge, I think word believe would be more adequate, aspecially as this seems to be a lot of work for our somewhat benine and Exonerated god

I would have said believe, but I meant that Christians know that we're supposed to believe. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

-Just 3 questions though:-

1=Could you say, that you do not feel the end is near because fear it?

Well, the only part about it that I fear is that I have no idea what's actually going to happen. Other than that it's not really a big deal. You live and you die.

2=Doesn't the idea of spliting everyone into heaven and hell somewhat reduntise ultimate forgiveness?

That's an entirely different topic to discuss. But basically God is both merciful and just, meaning that those who have strived to follow God (perhaps even indirectly/without knowing it) will go to Heaven and those who by their own will absolutely refusing to follow God will go to Hell. Now, us mere human beings can't judge that on an individual level, but that's the basic premise. Also, just because someone goes to Hell it doesn't mean that God hasn't forgiven that person.

All in all this is a very philosophical argument because no one on Earth can really claim that a particular group or individual will go to Heaven or Hell. There's loads of this kind of discussion on the Internet, I'm sure.

3=What happens if a natural end, beats god to the punch?

The natural end was planned that way?

(And before say, it will all be planned, doesn't the idea of everything being planned, remove free will, I mean if it is preset some insane dictator is going to nuke the earth until nothing is left alive, does that not remove his choice in the matter and if that is true, it means that these somewhat conflicting ideals make at lest half of Christianity wrong, and the rest is suspect enough as it is)

No, being planned doesn't remove free will. There is individual free will, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't have a bigger plan for the general good of the world. God has a plan for people as well, but the people can refuse to be a part of that plan.

god sounds like a kid with his homework, always putting it off and leaving rest of us waiting

Except in this case, there isn't a due date. It's OK to wait.

[Fat1Fared]

I would have said believe, but I meant that Christians know that we're supposed to believe. Sorry I didn't make that clear.


I see


Well, the only part about it that I fear is that I have no idea what's actually going to happen. Other than that it's not really a big deal. You live and you die.


this was actually more subtle question than that, and is on about the very fact that all of religion is just way to deal with death, (because poeple don't like idea nothing left for them once there dead, I mean there was Christians writer who once condescendingly said that all non-Christains could not dealt with death, as believed in no afterlife, the irony to be me, is that, dispite her clearl lack of knowledge about other religions, to me, it is really a lack of being able to deal with death in first place which makes poeple want an afterlife
=I lived with Christians most of my life and they admitted to this, they could not deal with thought of nothing being left once they died


That's an entirely different topic to discuss. But basically God is both merciful and just, meaning that those who have strived to follow God (perhaps even indirectly/without knowing it) will go to Heaven and those who by their own will absolutely refusing to follow God will go to Hell. Now, us mere human beings can't judge that on an individual level, but that's the basic premise. Also, just because someone goes to Hell it doesn't mean that God hasn't forgiven that person.


=Not really, if this is the end, then we are talking about dieing, (on whatever level you wish to put it) and so is needed here.

=Now first, so you are saying that someone has right to define right and wrong, and to you that is god?
-I am right in this context?
-=Well if that is true, then that gives good and evil clear context as well, but if that is true, then that ether removes a fundermental truth that there is not true context to good and evil, just action and reaction, with the interpretations watching it (which is how he gets away with creating it, because above judgment) OR it means that god willing made evil, and thus loses the right judge those who follow it,

=PS with the he has forgiven, I know Christanity likes to have things both ways IE I respect poeples choices, while still judging them for it, but you cannot have it both ways. If somone kills my sister, so I kill them, I cannot say as they die from the wounds I gave them, oh and I forgive you, Forgiveness takes more than words.
=Then again God loves to take all credit anything presable as nice and absolve himself any responsibility for anything else, so suppose would not be to much to think he was deluded enough to see this as expectable princable


All in all this is a very philosophical argument because no one on Earth can really claim that a particular group or individual will go to Heaven or Hell. There's loads of this kind of discussion on the Internet, I'm sure.


=Does not remove the doublestands created.


The natural end was planned that way?

No, being planned doesn't remove free will. There is individual free will, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't have a bigger plan for the general good of the world. God has a plan for people as well, but the people can refuse to be a part of that plan.


-Yes it does, if god makes a plan for something to happen, sort of removes poeples choice about it happening,
=Now next you will say, but he doesn't make it happen, well I suppose who could say same about slave owner, he doesn't use magic to force his will on others, they follow him, but that doesn't mean he isn't removing their will in the matter.

=And natural end is point in case, he uses power to force his plan on us, against most of ours wills, that is still enslavement,


Except in this case, there isn't a due date. It's OK to wait.

-Well to me, waiting for god is like waiting for any other fantasy, a long wait with fruitless end, but that sespective I suppose
=However seriously, we are told of all these acts he use to do, but no longer does, that makes think 1 of 2 things:-
1=They never happened
2=He is not doing anything anymore,

=Ether way, I think your in for long wait (and why make us wait? oh yer, because why we wait, we obey -_-)

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, giving them the power to know the difference between right and wrong. As such, we know that right is what will come eventually to save us all, even in the form of something that most would consider fearful: Death.


=No it gave them power to preseeve their own version of right and wrong, there is massive difference and this didn't answer anything,

=PS also holy, no matter how much someone believes something, does not always make it true. There is case of Man who believed his wife was devil (saw horns and everything) so he stabbed her to death, he has now realised that was not true and is willingly spending the rest of his life in mental ward, but point of matter is, this man really believing something, did not make it true or its consequences any less tragic


But we should know that death is but a step in the overall plan. If it wasn't, death wouldn't exist.


Actually Death exists to allow change and evolution, because without death no new life could come, meaning everything would stop and stagnate


There's no reason to fear this life ending. There will be a more grand life beyond this one.


You make a good point. We should enjoy the gift of life that God has given us while we have it.


this too statements are little confusing their self-condition, I mean if dieing is so great, surely you guys should jumping off cliffs to get to it sooner (before anyone says it, I know suicide is sin, it was sarcasm)

=The point is, it still sounds like way to deal with death, rather like when Mum tells you your dog has gone to magical farm, (Nice story, nothing more, aspecially when thought about logically and how impossible it would be to have every soul go somewhere and live there

Family Guy joke="Theres always a lack of Chairs" ^_-


No... forgiveness comes to those who ask for it. That's all, Faust.


to be honest, being forgiven by a creature, who thinks its ok to flood the world, burn cities and.....etc anyone who annoyes him while still telling us how nice and forgiving he is, well I would rather go to hell thx's, lest the Devil is honest in his Dishonesty

PS Also what this statement means is, the only thing you cannot be forgiven for, is not asking for forgiveness???????? (well that makes about as much sense as,,,,,actually makes no less sense than rest of it <shrugs>)


That could be our religious end. The ultimate battle between good and evil could very well have already begun secretly, and just hasn't been revealed yet. It's impractical and improbable to ask a question like this because we haven't got much to go on about the end of the world.


And Darth Vader is already working on bringing out the dark side in us all Dun-Dun-Dunnnnnnnnnnn

=I still say there is no definative good or evil, because simply too complicate and sublte an area to off-handly make into something so black and white


For a different answer, it could be that the human race does end before that happens, but who's to say that we will not rise again on another planet?

We don't know the future, Fared. Don't ask.


=Well, you seem to know a lot about the future, I mean you even know how we are going to end, and all these other great plans god has told us are waiting for us (there is lot of telling in fact, not very often right, but we are told all this stuff, so surely you should have a prediction for this one as well) ^_-


Patience is a virtue.

=Patience is virtue as long as your not too patience (like with anything)

=To be honest, I will take my life here and hedge my bets on not being anything afterwards, and if god is there, well sure he will forgive me ^_-

[Underling]

It's fun being aware that the Bible has been proven to have been written 100s of years after Jesus was around by a dozen different people who can't agree with each other on basic facts. Saves me a lot of hassle.

[Fenrir502]

It's fun being aware that the Bible has been proven to have been written 100s of years after Jesus was around by a dozen different people who can't agree with each other on basic facts. Saves me a lot of hassle.

By Bible, I trust you mean New Testament?

[Underling]

By Bible, I trust you mean New Testament?

Not particularly.

[Aninamar]

It's fun being aware that the Bible has been proven to have been written 100s of years after Jesus was around by a dozen different people who can't agree with each other on basic facts. Saves me a lot of hassle.

It sure is nice that one of the Apostles was Gay Luigi!

Religious apocalypse? The "miracle" never happen. Because a "miracle" is a thing that doesn't exist.

[PegasusJCrawford]

It's fun being aware that the Bible has been proven to have been written 100s of years after Jesus was around by a dozen different people who can't agree with each other on basic facts. Saves me a lot of hassle.

^^^
This.

[Underling]

I find it odd that every time a religion thread comes up, nearly every single atheist on the forums comes over to try to make fun of it or to voice their disbelief.

The problem is that atheism isn't a religion. It's a lack of religion. That means you're not allowed to talk about atheist concepts in a religious thread without admitting that atheism is a religion. In which case, the school system would not be allowed to promote no religion, or any religion.

This is the religious equivalent of 3 > x > 3.

Now, in that case, you can easily talk about why one religion is right about it and one isn't, but unfortunately, this isn't really the place for that either. This is supposed to be for apocalyptic discussion. A certain Underling doesn't seem to be off-topic at all. Oh well. It's not like he's a mod or anything.

Are there any religious people beside Christians on these forums? Any other end of the world religious beliefs?

I'm sure you had a point in there somewhere but I fear it won't survive the night.

[Underling]

It's a nice, nontroll way of saying, "Shut the fuck up about atheism. This is about religious ends, not lack of religion. Go to the other thread for that."

God, we make one thread for nonreligious ends, I beg for a religious one, and what do people do? They talk about nonreligious ends in a thread about religious ends.

The fuck is wrong with you people?

You want us to make a thread about the apocalypse not happening?

[PegasusJCrawford]

I don't know why someone didn't just make a thread called "Apocalypse" instead of everyone fighting about how they're not being relivant to the thread...-_-

[MrsSallyBakura]

I don't know why someone didn't just make a thread called "Apocalypse" instead of everyone fighting about how they're not being relivant to the thread...-_-

Because AllisonWalker didn't want her thread to do with anything related to religion, yet people talked about it anyways.

[AllisonWalker]

I tried, but people were going all Revelations on me. I didn't want the religious (or lack of) bitching.

._.

[Underling]

I tried, but people were going all Revelations on me. I didn't want the religious (or lack of) bitching.

._.

yes of course because the apocalypse and revelations are totally unrelated

[PegasusJCrawford]

well because of this now everyone bitching about something. the point is...why am I here I don't believe in God....*leaves*

[AllisonWalker]

yes of course because the apocalypse and revelations are totally unrelated

They are if you're an atheist. Or if you don't think every single mega disaster is Judgement day.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I tried, but people were going all Revelations on me. I didn't want the religious (or lack of) bitching.

._.

I know what you mean. It's all the same anyways.

I would debate further on these issues but it seems kinda fruitless.

Although here (http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm) is a timeline of how the New Testament came to be. The Old Testament was around for the Jews to read, historically speaking. Take all this as you will but know that the argument, "The Bible was written hundreds of years after Christ" doesn't necessarily hold a lot of ground when you want to really dig deep into history. Unless, of course, history is completely wrong. Or there's a huge chunk of it missing that Christians simply haven't been told of.

[Underling]

They are if you're an atheist. Or if you don't think every single mega disaster is Judgement day.

oh i do apologise, you should have said, naturally you'd only want to debate religious issues with people who believe the exact same thing about them that you do, silly me

I know what you mean. It's all the same anyways.

I would debate further on these issues but it seems kinda fruitless.

Although here (http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm) is a timeline of how the New Testament came to be. The Old Testament was around for the Jews to read, historically speaking. Take all this as you will but know that the argument, "The Bible was written hundreds of years after Christ" doesn't necessarily hold a lot of ground when you want to really dig deep into history. Unless, of course, history is completely wrong. Or there's a huge chunk of it missing that Christians simply haven't been told of.

oh my what a reliable and unbiased website, i especially like how it doesn't cite a single reference

[AllisonWalker]

It wasn't a debate, it was a "What would you do?" discussion.

[Underling]

It wasn't a debate, it was a "What would you do?" discussion.

my bad, that was more directed at this thread and SR

[Underling]

You missed my point, Underling.

Atheism isn't a religion.

Therefore, it isn't a religious belief.

Therefore, it's off-topic in a religious topic.

Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc.

These are religions.

Atheism isn't.

i think you have a fundemental misunderstanding of how debating works

generally speaking, when debating a proposition, you need at least one person who disagrees with it

that's why they call it a debate

[MrsSallyBakura]

oh my what a reliable and unbiased website, i especially like how it doesn't cite a single reference

I had a nice long post but the site logged me out. ;_;

So let me restart:

I know that I'll probably sound stupid for saying this, but the bottom of the timeline says, "The timeline section is by Mark Bonocore & Bob Stanley." I'm trying to find information about them but all I know is that they are Catholic apologists who write various Catholic-related articles, and lots of them.

If you really want some sources to go by, you can always email the guy who runs the website and ask why there aren't any sources listed, and what makes Mark and Bob qualified to write a historical timeline like the one on his site. Heck, I wouldn't mind the answer to those questions either.

Also, if you have any sort of timeline/specific historical proof that contradicts anything in the timeline, feel free to post it.

[Underling]

Exactly. A buddhist might disagree with a christian concept.

You're intentionally missing this point. Stop.

but buddhists don't believe in god either... this is blatant discrimination... :(

[MrsSallyBakura]

but buddhists don't believe in god either... this is blatant discrimination... :(

But they do have specific ways of meditating and beliefs about seeking inner peace and such.

It's more structured and spiritual than regular atheism.

[OverMind]

Atheism:
- the doctrine or belief that there is no God
- a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods


I feel Buddhism fulfills this criterion.

[OverMind]

Buddhism, however, takes different meanings.

Certain sects actually do believe in spiritual beings like demons. (If I remember correctly)

And some revere the Buddha himself, similar to the way Christians revere Jesus.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but I don't think excluding atheist viewpoints from this discussion is valid.

[Underling]

oh it's overmind, finally somebody with some semblance of sense arrives...

Then admit that atheism is a religion.

2/10, had me going for a moment

[OverMind]

Then admit that atheism is a religion.

That's a debate out of the reach of the scope of this thread.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Then let it go and go to the other apocalypse thread. Thank you.

...or make a new topic that discusses why or why not athiesm is a religion?

[OverMind]

Why are there even two apocalypse threads?

What's the purpose of this one? Apocalypse-with-a-religious-twist? Which makes the other one ... what? A discussion of the 'atheist apocalypse'?

Does anyone else not see what's wrong with this situation?

[OverMind]

This thread shouldn't exist. Meld them together. That's what I've wanted since the beginning. It makes the most sense.

I didn't get that impression at all, I simply thought you just wanted to exclude atheists from the discussion.

But that works too, I guess.

I'd advocate just locking this one and being done with it.

[Underling]

Then let it go and go to the other apocalypse thread. Thank you.

ok, mod-mode engage

it's not your place to dictate which opinions are conducive to the discussion at hand and which are not, and you certainly aren't vested with the power to arbitrarily exclude an entire set of people from a thread

knock it the fuck off

Why are there even two apocalypse threads?

What's the purpose of this one? Apocalypse-with-a-religious-twist? Which makes the other one ... what? A discussion of the 'atheist apocalypse'?

Does anyone else not see what's wrong with this situation?

that thread was apparently intended to discuss natural disasters in general, the original poster wanted to seperate any religious discussion

again, not her place to demand such a thing but here we are...

[OverMind]

that thread was apparently intended to discuss natural disasters in general, the original poster wanted to seperate any religious discussion

again, not her place to demand such a thing but here we are...

I don't feel that the "apocalypse" has enough scope to warrant multiple threads. But, whatever.

[Underling]

I don't feel that the "apocalypse" has enough scope to warrant multiple threads. But, whatever.

thankfully none of this really matters, in the grand scheme of things...

[OverMind]

thankfully none of this really matters, in the grand scheme of things...

Definitely.

Because when its the end of the world, nothing really matters.

As an aside, I don't know about you guys but I will be focusing on more pressing matters. Atoning for my sins? Pfffft. I'll likely be trying to work out a deal with God, while simultaneously trying to work out a deal with Satan. If one falls through, I've got to fall back on something, right?

[MrsSallyBakura]

So instead of making peace between yourself and the spiritual world, you would rather gamble your way into the afterlife? I may not have used the words I was looking for

Interesting.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Sally, if God understands us all, why require us to beg for forgiveness?

God always forgives. But the relationship between God and man can't last if God only forgives but man never apologizes.

If God understands us, then shouldn't it be easy to understand why we'd do things from our point of view and understand the logic behind it?

This is probably where mercy comes in.

Doesn't God like when people use logic?

Yes. It means that we're using the brain that He gave us.

[MrsSallyBakura]

So even with endless piles of guilt, forgiveness won't come if the person doesn't say, "I'm sorry"?

It does, but the person can't have a relationship with God if the person doesn't say, "I'm sorry." That's really the whole point of forgiveness, even though God is willing to forgive when the person doesn't apologize.

[MrsSallyBakura]

If God is perfect, why does He need that apology?

The apology isn't about God. It's about man, who is imperfect.

[AllisonWalker]

Why don't you go ask a minister, SR?

[AllisonWalker]

Yes.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Atheists are more than welcome to show their view if the world were to turn on itself and suddenly be destroyed, even if they don't believe in God.

@SR, more like Lucifer was the prideful one, believing he was better than God and all the Angels put together.

[AllisonWalker]

Pride is a sin. Lucifer had a superiority complex.

[OverMind]

Eh, I have a superiority complex.

Maybe I'd be better off with Satan since we have so much in common.

[AllisonWalker]

How can God be perfect if He isn't everything?

He is the creator of all things.

SR, really, you should go talk to a minister or something.

[OverMind]

*ALERT*

Thread is veering off-topic.

*ALERT*

[Bakura136]

Is the god of origins. However somethings had become derived from those which were good.
And the bible speaks in an unliteral way. Ways of which can never be fuly understood.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

How can God be perfect if He isn't everything?

God is the ultimate Omniscient being.

It knows all, sees all, and is present in all things.

God doesn't make mistakes, but It doesn't want to command and rule a bunch of mindless slaves and robots, which is why Humans and all other living creatures were given free will to decide for them selves.

[Kochiha]

*sigh* Looks like I have to clear things up about my religion rather than provide some mindfucks for the Christians...

I feel Buddhism fulfills this criterion.

It indeed does; we do not hold a sentient divine being in regard. The only divine processes are as natural as time.

But they do have specific ways of meditating and beliefs about seeking inner peace and such.

It's more structured and spiritual than regular atheism.

I would say it's a little less structured, considering that there's more than one way to achieve enlightenment and only one way to truly believe in nothing, that way being get so high you don't even think.

but buddhists don't believe in god either... this is blatant discrimination... :(

Took the words right out of my mouth, Underling. It does in fact bother me that we are walked on because of our lack of belief in some deity.

Exactly. A buddhist might disagree with a christian concept.

You're intentionally missing this point. Stop.

I like how you say "might" when it's typically a blatant "will", but that's just in my case, there are plenty of moderate Buddhists around.

Buddhism, however, takes different meanings.

Certain sects actually do believe in spiritual beings like demons. (If I remember correctly)

Yes, but they are not divine. Besides, that's more of a follower of Shinto grafting Buddhism onto their already felt beliefs. (I do things the other way around, so I'm more Buddhist than Shinto, but the mix is still there.)

[Underling]

shinto's pretty cool, why does nobody believe in the interesting religions anymore...

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Regarding Angels.

An extremely, powerful, shining, force that could knock you on your ass as easily as look at you, appears before you, are you going to ask questions or immediately, start bowing and worshipping the creature that could kill you, instantly?

(The being is an Angel not God, but you don't have this info before hand.)


If this situation were to happen to me, I'd be kneeling bowing, whatever, as long as the creature didn't hurt me.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Is the god of origins. However somethings had become derived from those which were good.
And the bible speaks in an unliteral way. Ways of which can never be fuly understood.

The Bible speaks:

1. Literally
2. Allegorically
3. Morally
4. Anagogically

So... yes it is literal to an extent. The other 3 senses draw from the literal perspective.

[Underling]

Regarding Angels were to appear what would you do? (not realizing it's an Angel and Not God)

An extremely, powerful, shining, force that could knock you on your ass as easily as look at you, appears before you, are you going to ask questions or immediately, start bowing and worshipping the creature that could kill you, instantly?

i'd probably ask what it was made of and by what process it was capable of emitting light...

[Kochiha]

shinto's pretty cool, why does nobody believe in the interesting religions anymore...

Shinto still remains the state religion of Japan, but to answer your question, those aren't around because Christian intimidation in the Middle Ages stomped most of it out.
Although Hindu is still doing quite nicely, and while I have some issues with it, it's the fundamental origin of Buddhism, so it definitely has its cool points.

Now to get back on topic, my view is that the world as we know it has already been destroyed and remade countless times. In the 90s, people "knew" that Tyrannosaurus was the largest predatory dinosaur. In the 900s, people "knew" the world would end on 1/1/1000. Before some scientists provided some concrete evidence, people "knew" the Earth was at the center of everything. And before Einstein, people "knew" that the laws of physics were unbreakable. Additionally, before Judas Priest, people "knew" metal was dead. Before the telephone, people "knew" that the Pony Express could never be outdone.
What more is a world beyond a state of mind?

[Underling]

Now to get back on topic, my view is that the world as we know it has already been destroyed and remade countless times.

are you talking about an actual cyclic universe theory? or just some vague metaphysical mumbo jumbo...?

[Kochiha]

are you talking about an actual cyclic universe theory? or just some vague metaphysical mumbo jumbo...?

My beliefs are grounded in infinite causalities, idea being that every single one of those worlds still exits, but in turn bringing in cyclic universe theory to explain why the human state of mind changes so relatively easily.

[Kochiha]

Not to sound like I'm coming after you, Shadow, but is that your way of saying "cool story, bro"?

[Kochiha]

Fate in general is a complex and dynamic thing. It is very possible to change one's fate through actions and choices, be them monumental or as simple as meeting someone new. Our free will is what governs the nature of our fate, hence the idea known as karma. However, there is one aspect of fate that overrides all action and choice, and does NOT bow to the free will of living things. This form of fate is called hitsuzen, and much like time, there is nothing that can be done to stop its flow. Certain things must happen in order for the flow of time to continue, and these certain things are governed by the force that is hitsuzen. This thereby means that there is no coincidence, only hitsuzen, since it is hitsuzen that causes things to happen "on accident", so to speak.

[Kochiha]

Because of how complicated it is, I'll let those guys from Toronto explain things.

YpCASVFyQoE

[Bakura136]

My beliefs are grounded in infinite causalities, idea being that every single one of those worlds still exits, but in turn bringing in cyclic universe theory to explain why the human state of mind changes so relatively easily.
So....Rika Furude is just gonna get killed againand we'll all die and get sent to another Hinamizawa.
...Makes sense...Yes it does.
I was gonna say almost the same thing but for got it altogether.

[Bakura136]

Fate in general is a complex and dynamic thing. It is very possible to change one's fate through actions and choices, be them monumental or as simple as meeting someone new. Our free will is what governs the nature of our fate, hence the idea known as karma. However, there is one aspect of fate that overrides all action and choice, and does NOT bow to the free will of living things. This form of fate is called hitsuzen, and much like time, there is nothing that can be done to stop its flow. Certain things must happen in order for the flow of time to continue, and these certain things are governed by the force that is hitsuzen. This thereby means that there is no coincidence, only hitsuzen, since it is hitsuzen that causes things to happen "on accident", so to speak.
It could've been your fate to CHANGE your fate anyway.

[Fat1Fared]

Fared, you're clearly just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. This is why I dislike debating with you. Learn from others and others will learn from you. Keep your mind closed and people tire of you.

Holy, have you ever hear the saying, "when you point 1 finger at someone, you have 3 pointing back at yourself!"
=If haven't, learn it

This is not me disagreeing for sake of disagreeing, this is me making points on what I see as a Preposterous, nonsensical and out of date set of ideas, which merely existed as form of social control and way to covers peoples insecurities about the unknown, but on close inspection, have so many holes in them they look like someone took the theatrical version of a machinegun to them. This is because we now have other more logical and testable idea’s, which have meant religion has been found wanting and when this happens what does religion answer us with:-

1=An even more illogical answer, only packaged in way hope is so confusing it sounds right

or

2=It takes “Faith” and “god works in mysterious ways”

In words of Ricky Gervase Its sort of like the theological version of “Look behind you” <runs away>

PS also I love how religion thinks it ok to take over every talk or take credit for anything anyone else does or say it wrong (if something wouldn’t wish to take credit for,) but no one can do that to religion, why because religion is like the child who says his dad is James Bond, it knows its talking rubbish and has no actual way to defend itself, but doesn’t want to admit it, so petulantly gets upset. <apart from the first 10 words, this is not on about users on this site, who actually do better at defending their religion than their religion does -_-)
=I mean fact is, you can question my “earth bound” beliefs if want, I will answer them as best as I can, and on rare times people do, I do answer them or if I am found wanting, I accept I am wrong (IE I use to be against gayness when I was younger, but I have learned how limited that view tort to me was and changed it) the truth of matter is rather than questioning and cross exampling my beliefs, you can barely defend your own, and the only critic you can give mine, is to say their “close minded” (which easy enough to throw right back at religion, aspecially when look at how small world they actually make their beliefs, when do not need too) and “earth bound” (on same level, that atheists say religion is in fantasy land, difference is we can actually back our points up with more than just “faith” and “bible ref”) and you cannot even go indepth on these rebuttals.

-Now you can call me an A-hole if wish, but this is way I talk when I debate, I'm passionate about it, and if don't want beliefs to be critisied and cross-examined, don't put them anywhere where poeple can see them (and this goes for more than just religion) I would not critise you for that, as I know several poeple on this site who don't for that very reason, I mean its not like anyone is going to convince anyone else of anything on here

=However here a good idea, if really want 1 sided religious rebate like you get on bais TV channels, make a social club for it and only invite religious poeple into it, then we couldn't rebutt you even if we wanted

[JesusRocks]

Regarding Angels.

An extremely, powerful, shining, force that could knock you on your ass as easily as look at you, appears before you, are you going to ask questions or immediately, start bowing and worshipping the creature that could kill you, instantly?

(The being is an Angel not God, but you don't have this info before hand.)


If this situation were to happen to me, I'd be kneeling bowing, whatever, as long as the creature didn't hurt me.

In the Bible:
John in Revelation tried worshipping the angel who was bringing him the visions he was seeing. The angel immediately told John not to worship him.

There are other angelic encounters in the Old Testament as well where people were so frightened of angels that they tried to worship them, only then to have the angels rebuke them for it.

Only one "angel" has ever been worshipped (and accepted being worshipped), and He is referred to as "Malakh Yahweh", The Angel (or Messenger) of the Lord ... as distinguished from "an angel of the Lord"
Whenever this particular figure appears in the Old Testament, the people He appears to are instantly aware that this is a self-manifestation of God.
Christians often attribute this figure to the pre-incarnate Christ... which fits, in that this figure is also referred to as the Word of God, one of Jesus' titles.

So basically... yeah, if you were to meet a Biblical angel, you may well fear him and start trying to worship him, but he wouldn't accept that worship, and would tell you to stop worshipping him...

[Fat1Fared]

i'd probably ask what it was made of and by what process it was capable of emitting light...

I would do what Leniten did in Wornwood and lock it in chains, then pull out it feathers and sell them ^_^ (well not like won't be forgiven, in fact I have made it my mission to see just how far I can fall before unforgivable ^_^)

Definitely.

Because when its the end of the world, nothing really matters.

As an aside, I don't know about you guys but I will be focusing on more pressing matters. Atoning for my sins? Pfffft. I'll likely be trying to work out a deal with God, while simultaneously trying to work out a deal with Satan. If one falls through, I've got to fall back on something, right?

How ironic, that in my long cross-examination of all this (which caused holy to decide it was just easier to remove all non-religious talk from debate, this was my conclusion as well. I mean if is a god, just make a deal that he forgives me, I mean surely he will and if doesn't makes devil more honest of the 2 :thatface: )



Yes. It means that we're using the brain that He gave us.

I have nothing to say to rest of that, which was not said before, however tech god didn't give us sentient thought, we did (or the snake if want to be pedantic) by eating the forbidden fruit, (which I still think proves just how neligient a god, god really is, I mean talk about leaving your gun laying around for the kids to find -_- of course if we say he meant for it to happen, then god actually wanted to throw us out of eden and so god is one with sin)



@SR, more like Lucifer was the prideful one, believing he was better than God and all the Angels put together.

-Actually, though I hate to say it, Holy is "closer" here, Lucifer did rebel because of his pride yes, but it was more to do with the fact he felt that god was a tryannt and that Angels should be free from his control, which is why he tried to take over and give power to the angels (with him as leader, but still, he was not just some egotest, he was more like Lenin, a well-intended extremist, who had an ego and god was hardly blameless there, I mean he made him as close to perfect as possible and constantly told him so, then wondered why he became narssiratic)

Is the god of origins. However somethings had become derived from those which were good.
And the bible speaks in an unliteral way. Ways of which can never be fully understood.

something which can never be understood or is so vague no one answer to it, is normally wrong thing trying to hide behind own mist vale

Shinto still remains the state religion of Japan, but to answer your question, those aren't around because Christian intimidation in the Middle Ages stomped most of it out.
Although Hindu is still doing quite nicely, and while I have some issues with it, it's the fundamental origin of Buddhism, so it definitely has its cool points.

Now to get back on topic, my view is that the world as we know it has already been destroyed and remade countless times. In the 90s, people "knew" that Tyrannosaurus was the largest predatory dinosaur. In the 900s, people "knew" the world would end on 1/1/1000. Before some scientists provided some concrete evidence, people "knew" the Earth was at the center of everything. And before Einstein, people "knew" that the laws of physics were unbreakable. Additionally, before Judas Priest, people "knew" metal was dead. Before the telephone, people "knew" that the Pony Express could never be outdone.
What more is a world beyond a state of mind?

you see, this is a view I like and the very reason Buddhism is only religion worth any note in my opinion, it realises that world is what it is and bases itself on that, while trying to improve itself, but without saying its way is right way, merely its idea's (which is why christians so easily killed them off, in early 19h century, because they refused to try and get poeple to support their ideals, knowing that was against their ideals, other religions could learn a lot from them)

[Fat1Fared]

Something tells me Fared's read Paradise Lost...

I totally haven't, but even if I had wouldn't using something which was decripted by its writer as justifying the actions of God to Mankind act as rather counter productive to my points?

[darkarcher]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the various armageddon scenarios of religious sects. This thread is NOT designed for the discussion of the veracity of said sects. Please keep this in mind as you continue the topic.

[DaJacksterN]

Buddhism is not a religion, but rather a philosphy or a way of interpreting life. It's one of the few practices resembling religion that really garners a lot of respect from me...

Religious apocalypse? It could happen. Perhaps a religious leader, knowing he is about to be beaten, nukes a country as a final blow because hey, he's gonna die anyways. Might as well take the whole bloody world with him.
Then again, this could happen to anyone in a position of total power with an irrational mindset. Religion seems to fuel irrationality though, so it's quite possible that the end will be brought upon, in part, due to religion.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

all beliefs are accepted when it comes to religious discussion about end times.

Buddhist, Athiest, Sun Worshippers, etc.

I grew up educated in Christian Philosophy, and believe in a higher power/ being. I'm just not sure if it's God, Christ, Buddha, or whatever. Mainstream religion seems very confusing, to me, but the only knowledge I have on the Apocalypse is in Revelation that I learned while growing up. IMO, it's terrifying stuff, and I have never been able to completely read through the book.

[Kochiha]

It could've been your fate to CHANGE your fate anyway.

And THAT is the concept of hitsuzen.

[DaJacksterN]

all beliefs are accepted when it comes to religious discussion about end times.

Buddhist, Athiest, Sun Worshippers, etc.

I grew up educated in Christian Philosophy, and believe in a higher power/ being. I'm just not sure if it's God, Christ, Buddha, or whatever. Mainstream religion seems very confusing, to me, but the only knowledge I have on the Apocalypse is in Revelation that I learned while growing up. IMO, it's terrifying stuff, and I have never been able to completely read through the book.

Buddhism is not a religion and does not worship the Buddha as a deity or higher power.

[Fat1Fared]

Buddhism is not a religion and does not worship the Buddha as a deity or higher power.

Techically under the socialogy accepted view, this doesn't matter and this is why Buddism is cased as 1 of 5 world religions (religion is not just about gods, it is about worship and doctrine (worship doesn't have to include god and doctrine doesn't need divine to make it offical)

[JesusRocks]

While we're talking about Buddhism *not* being a religion, I'll go ahead and mention that Christianity technically isn't a religion, but is instead a faith, or even simply a relationship, according to a very precise definition of the word "religion"...

This precise definition being that "religion" implies that there is a belief that the rituals/actions/good deeds you perform will bring you some kind of salvation, redemption or something similar. Most world religions except Christianity share this philosophy.
This is taken from the phrase "to do something religiously" i.e. with ritual regularity.
By that definition, Christianity could be more appropriately termed a "faith".

But (in agreement with Fat1Fared's post above) according to the modern definition of "religion", both Buddhism and Christianity would fall under this category. So it's useless to start saying that neither Buddhism nor Christianity are religions.

[Underling]

This precise definition being that "religion" implies that there is a belief that the rituals/actions/good deeds you perform will bring you some kind of salvation, redemption or something similar. Most world religions except Christianity share this philosophy.

good deeds you perform will bring you some kind of salvation, redemption or something similar

...you're seriously suggesting this doesn't apply to christianity?

[JesusRocks]

...you're seriously suggesting this doesn't apply to christianity?

Yes, of course I am. Again, here is an example of popular misunderstanding triumphing over the truth of the matter... and again, not helped by hollywood's insistence that this is the case.

Well, according to Christianity, salvation comes through putting your faith in Jesus only. The good works come in thankfulness for Jesus saving us. People show that they have this faith, by the works they do... i.e. it's an active faith. But the salvation part is already done the moment a person asks forgiveness from Jesus that first time.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Yes, of course I am. Again, here is an example of popular misunderstanding triumphing over the truth of the matter... and again, not helped by hollywood's insistence that this is the case.

QFT

Well, according to Christianity, salvation comes through putting your faith in Jesus only. The good works come in thankfulness for Jesus saving us. People show that they have this faith, by the works they do... i.e. it's an active faith. But the salvation part is already done the moment a person asks forgiveness from Jesus that first time.

James 2:14-16.

If I may add, you can also lose your salvation if at any moment you decide to turn away from God and essentially refuse to turn back...

Although I disagree that Christianity is not religion. There are certain practices and rituals and stuff that all Christian sects follow, even the ones that claim that they don't have any... However, in order to really be Christian, you have to have a relationship with Jesus and have that kind of faith. So it's a matter of both, which is still very unique compared to other religions.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Good deed: Accepting Jesus.
Accepting Jesus: Salvation.
Good deed: Salvation.

Well, if life were only those 3 moments then that would suffice...

But alas, life lasts longer than that. That's why we were given the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes and such.

[AllisonWalker]

Salvation through faith alone.

That's what I believe in.

[Underling]

christ it's depressing that there are people like you guys in this world...

you can't even see how hideous the things you're saying are...

[Underling]

christ it's depressing that there are people like you guys in this world...

you can't even see how hideous the things you're saying are...

and there was me thinking you'd agree with me 100%, what was i thinking...

well, you sure showed me

[Underling]

Dying isn't depressing. Suffering is depressing.

To me, dying is very uncertain, but uncertainty to me doesn't mean fear.

The way I see it, there are different things that could happen during death...

Possibility one: Rebirth. Whether this be in a cycle or in a different life, we'll get to experience life again.

Possibility two: End. Total blackness, nothingness. Mu? It's not so much depressing as it is comforting that you won't even comprehend anything or sense anything in this state, so you know you won't feel anything bad in this state. Why be depressed or afraid at neutrality? Be neutral to it.

Possibility three: Paradise/Heaven/Good Things Happen. Good things happen. What's so bad about that? Nothing. That's what.

Possibility four: Torture/Hell/Bad Things Happen. You generally shouldn't be afraid of this if you're a good person. What defines good? That's up to you to decide.

Possibility five: Purgatory. Ghosts. Crap like that. The hell would be wrong with that? I'd get to watch high school/college girls get naked all the time. That's fucking heaven. That'd probably be my favorite.

Possibility six: ??? I can't imagine anything else particularly bad, so I assume it to be neutral or better.

What's so good about life, anyway? When it comes right down to it, money can only buy you so much, love makes you feel horrible most of the time, and pleasure can get boring after a while.

It's not really that depressing to me. It just isn't.

___________________

Of course, what they're saying seems to be slightly self-contradictory. I proved that mathematically.

well thanks for clearing that up

[Kochiha]

You don't know peace until you've had suffering. The purpose of life is to exist, and the purpose of existance is to learn suffering so that peace may be attained. Hitsuzen dictates what must occur in order for its existance to be prolonged, and thus enables us to suffer so that we may continue to exist. The only thing that can break the cycle is some great divine being, but no such being exists and therefore there can be no break to the cycle, meaning that there can be no end to existence.

We will all die soon, but then we will live as something else in another world as more or less what we were.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

christ it's depressing that there are people like you guys in this world...

you can't even see how hideous the things you're saying are...

christ you know what's even MOAR depressing?

That you exist.

Srsly, Christianity is a cult not a religion, at least it started that way.

[Kochiha]

The way I see it, since the purpose of existing is to exist (a little revelation I had on the way home after seeing Avatar), we may as well exist as much as we can. Eventually, we will learn how to suffer without suffering, and then we will be content. That's all that matters.

[AllisonWalker]

christ you know what's even MOAR depressing?

That you exist.

Srsly, Christianity is a cult not a religion, at least it started that way.

It isn't a cult anymore.

[MrsSallyBakura]

christ it's depressing that there are people like you guys in this world...

Well you know what? They do.

Live with it. Because it's not going away.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

It isn't a cult anymore.

really? or did the cult group just become larger?

[MrsSallyBakura]

really? or did the cult group just become larger?

Well, what do you mean by cult in the first place?

People call the Catholic Church a cult but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is one. Although because I think that people have different definitions for what a cult actually is, it's hard to actually make a counter-argument against that.

[AllisonWalker]

really? or did the cult group just become larger?

Cult: a group whose beliefs or practices could be considered strange or sinister.

Since Christianity is the most practiced religion in the world, it's hardly a cult.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Well, what do you mean by cult in the first place?

People call the Catholic Church a cult but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is one. Although because I think that people have different definitions for what a cult actually is, it's hard to actually make a counter-argument against that.

Cult: a group whose beliefs or practices could be considered strange or sinister.

Since Christianity is the most practiced religion in the world, it's hardly a cult.

Definitions of cult (n)

1.religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader
2.religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false
3.idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity

I'm using Definition 3, in this case to describe Christianity. (I am fully aware that Christianity can have it's ranges too)

And yes, even now there are people that obsessively follow the bible, paying particular attention to the life of Christ, going to extremes to emulate his life to precise detail.

and in the time of Christ the largest religions at the time were, Judaism, Hinduism, and the Roman/ Greek Gods and their hierarchy.

When Christ started preaching, he was one sole, charismatic leader, having his followers perform their rituals in accordance with his word and will, which was "supposedly" the same as God's will. His antics and the actions of his followers were unorthodox, and in some cases, in terms of willing human sacrifice, extremist.

also, Allison, yes Christianity is practiced and accepted today, in some areas and countries,, but it isn't the MOST Practiced and accepted, Islam, and the already established Judaism is still fore runners in world religions.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I'm using Definition 3, in this case to describe Christianity. (I am fully aware that Christianity can have it's ranges too)

And yes, even now there are people that obsessively follow the bible, paying particular attention to the life of Christ, going to extremes to emulate his life to precise detail.

I understand what you are saying, but to what point do you think that people take Christianity "too far?" What is extreme and what isn't? Are some extremes better than others and therefore not as cultish?

I want to see if we agree or disagree on the matter, or if there's any bit of misunderstanding between both parties.

[AllisonWalker]

also, Allison, yes Christianity is practiced and accepted today, in some areas and countries,, but it isn't the MOST Practiced and accepted, Islam, and the already established Judaism is still fore runners in world religions.

According to what? I still believe Christianity has Islam beat and there are very few practicing Jews in the world population.

[MrsSallyBakura]

And actually, yeah, Judaism isn't actually that popular these days...

[OverMind]

According to what? I still believe Christianity has Islam beat and there are very few practicing Jews in the world population.

When was it ever a competition?

The number of adherents of a religion doesn't necessarily make it the more "correct" one.

[JesusRocks]

James 2:14-16.

Needs more verses adding to that string, the whole passage in James about faith without works being dead is usually better taken together.

Talking about the necessity to have an active faith, and not sit around in the mindset of "I'm sorted now, screw the rest of the world"

I like the way in verse 18 of that passage, James is all like "show me your faith without deeds"... I lol'd because it's a trick question, you can't show your faith without action... you can tell about your faith, but it's not very convincing that you actually believe that unless your faith moves you to do things.

If I may add, you can also lose your salvation if at any moment you decide to turn away from God and essentially refuse to turn back...

I was about to say I disagreed with this. But when I read on and saw the "turn away from God an refuse to turn back" bit, I realised what you were talking about lol XD

My pastor explained it like a ticket of some sort. That ticket can never be taken away from you, but you can give it back. Well, I found it a helpful illustration anyway >_>

Although I disagree that Christianity is not religion. There are certain practices and rituals and stuff that all Christian sects follow, even the ones that claim that they don't have any... However, in order to really be Christian, you have to have a relationship with Jesus and have that kind of faith. So it's a matter of both, which is still very unique compared to other religions.

What I meant when I said about the rituals, is that the rituals in most religions are what brings your salvation. Yeah, christianity has many rituals common to all denominations, but they don't bring or affect salvation.
They're things which allow you to become disciplined in your faith, come closer in intimacy with God through worship, and various things like that.

So in short, the method of salvation in Christianity is unique, but it does have after-the-fact rituals like other religions.

[AllisonWalker]

When was it ever a competition?

The number of adherents of a religion doesn't necessarily make it the more "correct" one.

I'm never gonna say Christianity is the "wrong" religion. And to say it's a cult is absurd.
Don't take things so out-of-context.

[Underling]

What I meant when I said about the rituals, is that the rituals in most religions are what brings your salvation. Yeah, christianity has many rituals common to all denominations, but they don't bring or affect salvation.
They're things which allow you to become disciplined in your faith, come closer in intimacy with God through worship, and various things like that.

So in short, the method of salvation in Christianity is unique, but it does have after-the-fact rituals like other religions.

wow, are you like... an expert on every major religion on the face of the planet?

what am i saying, of course you are - certainly no decent person would just assume to know the impetus behind the rituals of other faiths and make baseless sweeping statements about the uniqueness of your favourite one

how impressive

[MrsSallyBakura]

What I meant when I said about the rituals, is that the rituals in most religions are what brings your salvation. Yeah, christianity has many rituals common to all denominations, but they don't bring or affect salvation.
They're things which allow you to become disciplined in your faith, come closer in intimacy with God through worship, and various things like that.

So in short, the method of salvation in Christianity is unique, but it does have after-the-fact rituals like other religions.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy in particular are a little bit different in that they have many more sacraments/helps than most other Christian denominations, and pay a lot of attention to them. Other Christians and non-Christians get confused in that they think that these rituals in and of themselves are believed by Catholics and Orthodox to take them to Heaven, although that's not the case. Rather, they are an incredible source of grace that can lead you closer to Heaven, and if you are absolutely and fully aware of that grace and you refuse to partake in it, then you are hindering your salvation. God has mercy towards those who have reason not to believe or who are ignorant... although being in either of those situations still isn't good.

wow, are you like... an expert on every major religion on the face of the planet?

what am i saying, of course you are - certainly no decent person would just assume to know the impetus behind the rituals of other faiths and make baseless sweeping statements about the uniqueness of your favourite one

how impressive

So instead of attacking JR's point, why don't you correct his seeming misunderstandings with some evidence? Prove that other religious systems don't rely on mere rituals and you'll have a point, but being blatantly sarcastic and just leaving it at that doesn't add too much to the discussion.

[Underling]

So instead of attacking JR's point, why don't you correct his seeming misunderstandings with some evidence? Prove that other religious systems don't rely on mere rituals and you'll have a point, but being blatantly sarcastic and just leaving it at that doesn't add too much to the discussion.

He's the one claiming to be the expert, not me. I realise it's not a concept you people understand very well, but the burden of proof is on him.

So yeah, I'll be sarcastic all the fuck I like.

[Xanadu]

I'm never gonna say Christianity is the "wrong" religion. And to say it's a cult is absurd.
Don't take things so out-of-context.

I will

its wrong

[Fat1Fared]

Possibility one: Rebirth. Whether this be in a cycle or in a different life, we'll get to experience life again.


If this is true, then how do we explain increases in number of poeple? (everytime a new person is born, is my soul split? Does that mean I'm a 100th of the person I once was?)
=Said this before, any form of life after death doesn't work, because simple realities such as these leave it wanting as a theory

You don't know peace until you've had suffering. The purpose of life is to exist, and the purpose of existance is to learn suffering so that peace may be attained.

-There are several questions here, which arraise in this somewhat likable, but simpistic ideal:-

1=But what is peace? (I mean linking this back to the Apocalypse, Christians see that as form of final peace? A person who loves fighting may see war as the most peacful time of his life, because only one he feels comfortable in and here is the problem with attaining inter-peace, we simply don't understand it

2=What is suffering and does the relatality of it matter? (I mean this is very sub-subjective area, a person born in war and provety, may see suffering in a completely different way to someone born into riches and peace, does this effect the path to peace or make peace itself a question reality?)

3=Finally, what is point of attaining peace? (Does it really give live anymore meaning, I mean it could make it little nicer, which is not a bad thing, but would it really act as a reason to make life? No, as still just a state of mind and something which is soon lost to flow of time and the reapers gale, this then means that in fact, rather than being the meaning of life, it is a way to a state of being, in which you live your life, making it no more meaningful than simply living the life of sob, though could be a nicer one, and that is problem with trying to give deeper meanings to life, it is never quite deep enough)

The way I see it, since the purpose of existing is to exist (a little revelation I had on the way home after seeing Avatar), we may as well exist as much as we can. Eventually, we will learn how to suffer without suffering, and then we will be content. That's all that matters.

The only revelation I got from that film is that, Hollywood has got too much money and not enough stories (lol)
=Though seriously, can you say the point of something, is itself? (that is too counter inductive, maybe there is no point, but the point you make, and this would make every point nothing more than state of mind, thus sending it back to my eariler point, it is not a meaning of life, but a state of self

Well, what do you mean by cult in the first place?

People call the Catholic Church a cult but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is one. Although because I think that people have different definitions for what a cult actually is, it's hard to actually make a counter-argument against that.

-Techically under the actual studied view of cult, every religion has its route in cultism and even every major religion has through its own omissions ideals of cultism still remeaning within it, however most would not like to say this because of their own stigma against word cult (ironically, but anyway)
=but it is not the idea of cult which is bad, just what cults can do and in this way, they are no different from religion

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.gif

Odd...

-ok, seriously stop bringing up this stat, even if somehow being largest, did make you more valid, that statistic is massively flawed, because it includes poeple who are merely registered to a religion without practising (did you know that only something like 10% of registered christains in england actually practise their religion?)


What I meant when I said about the rituals, is that the rituals in most religions are what brings your salvation. Yeah, christianity has many rituals common to all denominations, but they don't bring or affect salvation.
They're things which allow you to become disciplined in your faith, come closer in intimacy with God through worship, and various things like that.

So in short, the method of salvation in Christianity is unique, but it does have after-the-fact rituals like other religions.

=This is bit like saying a mongrel is not a dog because it isn't a true breed. JR you are trying to cleverly change word use round to make it out that action comes through faith, not faith through action or in middle of too, however as a lawyer you should know that using the english language in this very strict-literary rule way, though can help twist things, rarely brings about an acceptable answer, because if your ideas were true then the actions by its example actually have nothing to do with the faith and are in fact a psychological byproduct of ones own mind, which means religion/faith does not have any interlink to creation of actions. However much of the time, it is that psychological state of mind which is important, Yes a man who thinks he is holy is by his own state of mind is holy to himself, but it is not that individual which matters here (because we are looking at religions as social things not intrinsic one), it is the conious collective which has ideal of acting in <<<A>>> will create a feeling of Faith through a Structured Doctrine and that structure comes from the faith of the hereby religion, which defined it.
=The only real thing with Christianty is that it is lot more noticeable in fragmented state of the structure on which, its ideals lie, because more than 1 mass religion under its name and os by this there is more than one believed structure of faith, however "all" (unliterary use of word) religions believe it is through riturals (however ill-structured) that faith is attained and it is the want of faith which brings this attainment through action.

=Put simply for "all" religious doctrine:-
Religion creates the faith's (and through this its doctrine,) the faith creates a sense of mind, the sense of mind creates the doctrine's vesa actions, the actions define the faith, which moves back to the created Religion (So its actually circle (or spiral if being pedantic) thing of faith and doctrine linked, of course this is just because of my words and there own structure defining my belief, so changes them and there meaning at will ^_-)

PS also with the ticket, if I sell it on E-bay, does that mean I still own title of it? ^_-

I will

its wrong

best answer EVER ^_^

[AllisonWalker]

I will

its wrong

You're not even educated enough on the subject to make such a statement. There are many sects of Christianity and they aren't all reputiable.

Fared, not everyone believes going to church is the only way to practice their religion. Hell, I didn't go to church once this year, but I'm still a Christian.

[MrsSallyBakura]

You're not even educated enough on the subject to make such a statement. There are many sects of Christianity and they aren't all reputiable.

I agree with this.

Most people who claim that Christianity is wrong actually don't know that much about it. Not everybody, certainly, but a lot of people.

-Techically under the actual studied view of cult, every religion has its route in cultism and even every major religion has through its own omissions ideals of cultism still remeaning within it, however most would not like to say this because of their own stigma against word cult (ironically, but anyway)
=but it is not the idea of cult which is bad, just what cults can do and in this way, they are no different from religion

That's fair enough of a point. Better to put everyone under the cult blanket than only a few religions who dislike being called cults, I suppose.

Also: I on the other hand go to church at LEAST once a week (I try to go at least 3 times a week, actually), but I know for a fact that it's not the only way to practice my religion. I practice it in many other ways and to believe that all you have to do is go to church is simply wrong, according to Christianity.

[OverMind]

Also: I on the other hand go to church at LEAST once a week (I try to go at least 3 times a week, actually), but I know for a fact that it's not the only way to practice my religion. I practice it in many other ways and to believe that all you have to do is go to church is simply wrong, according to Christianity.

It's the open-endedness interpretation of religion that's never really made sense to me.

You take a religion like Judaism (not reform) or Islam, and they've got a pretty rigid and clear-cut structure of rules and adherances. Some of them arbitrary, but existent nonetheless. Semi-adherence isn't really considered a legitimate form of practise. I may not agree with them, but I admire them for sticking with "God's" words in whole, not in part.

I guess if you do truly believe, then half-assing your devotion to religion (such as focusing on the socially-acceptable part, and ignoring the crazy parts) doesn't really make sense.

Then again, I'm an all-or-nothing kind of guy.

You're not even educated enough on the subject to make such a statement.

I'm curious as to what sort of education is required to legitimize one's position on religion?

Last point, this topic is way off-tangent.

[AllisonWalker]

Having gone to several different sects of Christian churches with a clear mind.

I've been to Catholic, Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, and Unitarian Universalist.

[OverMind]

Having gone to several different sects of Christian churches with a clear mind.

I've been to Catholic, Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, and Unitarian Universalist.

And what about Orthodox? Or Assyrian?

I hereby proclaim that, since you have not visited these specific churches, or the churches of the literally thousands of other Christian sects, that you are not educated enough to formulate your own independent position on Christianity.

Sorry, those are the rules.

Apparently.

[AllisonWalker]

And what about Orthodox? Or Assyrian?

I hereby proclaim that, since you have not visited these specific churches, or the churches of the literally thousands of other Christian sects, that you are not educated enough to formulate your own independent position on Christianity.

Sorry, those are the rules.

Apparently.

Haha, I never said all of them, but just because you went to mass and didn't like it doesn't mean you understand Christianity. Only going to one kind of church isn't enough.

[AllisonWalker]

I KNOW!

[Xanadu]

You're not even educated enough on the subject to make such a statement. There are many sects of Christianity and they aren't all reputiable.

Fared, not everyone believes going to church is the only way to practice their religion. Hell, I didn't go to church once this year, but I'm still a Christian.

actually, yes I am
I've been studying religion since I was 14
I have taken all sorts of classes and such

[MrsSallyBakura]

It's the open-endedness interpretation of religion that's never really made sense to me.

You take a religion like Judaism (not reform) or Islam, and they've got a pretty rigid and clear-cut structure of rules and adherances. Some of them arbitrary, but existent nonetheless. Semi-adherence isn't really considered a legitimate form of practise. I may not agree with them, but I admire them for sticking with "God's" words in whole, not in part.

I guess if you do truly believe, then half-assing your devotion to religion (such as focusing on the socially-acceptable part, and ignoring the crazy parts) doesn't really make sense.

Then again, I'm an all-or-nothing kind of guy.

Maybe you misunderstood what I said, because I absolutely agree with you that half-assing a religion doesn't make much sense.

I simply meant that there are people who believe that all they need to do to be Christian is go to church once a week and then do whatever the heck they want during the rest of it. Anyone who has studied Christian morality and stressed the importance of a personal relationship with God and other such topics knows that simply being physically present in church isn't enough devotion to religion.

And... well, I suppose this topic got a bit too interesting for people to just keep it to the apocalypse.

So let me start some other discussion related to this religious apocalypse.

The word "apocalypse" is actually rooted from the Greek word, "apokalupsis," which means, "to uncover what has been covered up."

So how did this come to mean "the end of the world?"

[killshot]

Anyone who has studied Christian morality and stressed the importance of a personal relationship with God and other such topics knows that simply being physically present in church isn't enough devotion to religion.

Here is my problem with religion. How can you have a personal relationship with God? Does he talk to you? How do you know what he wants? I would think it would be hard to have a relationship with someone who doesn't communicate with you.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Here is my problem with religion. How can you have a personal relationship with God? Does he talk to you? How do you know what he wants? I would think it would be hard to have a relationship with someone who doesn't communicate with you.

Here's the thing - and it's pretty hard to believe, but we do actually believe that God communicates with us. It's not the same as talking with another human person, but some people can hear God in their prayer times. Of course there's the issue of whether or not it's actually God or if it's just your head, but that's usually when you ask for signs and the ability to discern those "voices" better.

I know it sounds weird and like we're all schizo lunatics, but... I somehow doubt that's the case.

[killshot]

I don't think you are all lunatics, but I don't think its God you're hearing either. You know that weird feeling you get after watching a scary movie and you try to go to bed? You know the movie wasn't real, but your mind still plays tricks on you. I think its the same thing when people claim they hear God talking to them. Sometimes your brain can make you sense things that might not be there.

I'm sorry if none of that made sense. I'm a little drunk right now.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I don't think you are all lunatics, but I don't think its God you're hearing either. You know that weird feeling you get after watching a scary movie and you try to go to bed? You know the movie wasn't real, but your mind still plays tricks on you. I think its the same thing when people claim they hear God talking to them. Sometimes your brain can make you sense things that might not be there.

I'm sorry if none of that made sense. I'm a little drunk right now.

I understand what you're saying, even with the movie thing, but it still isn't quite the same thing. I don't really know how to explain it much beyond that, as my own personal examples would take up a ton of room in a post and would require personal background and yadda yadda.

[kudos]

While we're talking about Buddhism *not* being a religion, I'll go ahead and mention that Christianity technically isn't a religion, but is instead a faith, or even simply a relationship, according to a very precise definition of the word "religion"...

This precise definition being that "religion" implies that there is a belief that the rituals/actions/good deeds you perform will bring you some kind of salvation, redemption or something similar. Most world religions except Christianity share this philosophy.
This is taken from the phrase "to do something religiously" i.e. with ritual regularity.
By that definition, Christianity could be more appropriately termed a "faith".

But (in agreement with Fat1Fared's post above) according to the modern definition of "religion", both Buddhism and Christianity would fall under this category. So it's useless to start saying that neither Buddhism nor Christianity are religions.

yes. Christianity is a relationship not a religion... I believe that Salvation is not earned by actions. (in other words, I agree with everything you've posted in this thread so far.)


=This is bit like saying a mongrel is not a dog because it isn't a true breed. JR you are trying to cleverly change word use round to make it out that action comes through faith, not faith through action or in middle of too, however as a lawyer you should know that using the english language in this very strict-literary rule way, though can help twist things, rarely brings about an acceptable answer, because if your ideas were true then the actions by its example actually have nothing to do with the faith and are in fact a psychological byproduct of ones own mind, which means religion/faith does not have any interlink to creation of actions. However much of the time, it is that psychological state of mind which is important, Yes a man who thinks he is holy is by his own state of mind is holy to himself, but it is not that individual which matters here (because we are looking at religions as social things not intrinsic one), it is the conious collective which has ideal of acting in <<<A>>> will create a feeling of Faith through a Structured Doctrine and that structure comes from the faith of the hereby religion, which defined it.
=The only real thing with Christianty is that it is lot more noticeable in fragmented state of the structure on which, its ideals lie, because more than 1 mass religion under its name and os by this there is more than one believed structure of faith, however "all" (unliterary use of word) religions believe it is through riturals (however ill-structured) that faith is attained and it is the want of faith which brings this attainment through action.

=Put simply for "all" religious doctrine:-
Religion creates the faith's (and through this its doctrine,) the faith creates a sense of mind, the sense of mind creates the doctrine's vesa actions, the actions define the faith, which moves back to the created Religion (So its actually circle (or spiral if being pedantic) thing of faith and doctrine linked, of course this is just because of my words and there own structure defining my belief, so changes them and there meaning at will ^_-)

As much as it pains me, Fared, I must disagree with you. JR is not merely twisting words... he is pointing out that there is a distinct difference in mindset between believing that your actions earn your salvation and your actions springing from gratitude for an already acquired salvation.

You seem to enjoy twisting peoples words as much as you say they are twisting the english language.

I wish i could elaborate and say it in a more eloquent way, but i'm late running out the door... perhaps I'll say more later.

[darkarcher]

Thread needs more apocalypse and less apologetics. I will be forced to lock it if people cannot get back on topic.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

we're talking about apocalypse, let's talk revelation.

I've never read the book all the way through.

could someone give a summary of each event that happens?

people representing other religions, tell us how you think the end will come.

[AllisonWalker]

According to the bible, Judgement Day isn't something to dread, nor is it some 24 hour ordeal. It's a 1,000 year span of time when Jesus will come and judge us, while Satan will come to earth one last time to tempt us. If we don't fall into temptation, we shall be restored to a state of paradise.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

can humans be trusted to resist their temptations?

Let's say humans DO fall into temptation, what will happen then?

Will God, send a fireball down to Earth, destroying everything, once and for all?

[MrsSallyBakura]

can humans be trusted to resist their temptations?

Let's say humans DO fall into temptation, what will happen then?

Will God, send a fireball down to Earth, destroying everything, once and for all?

Humans fall into temptation all the time, and I don't see any fireballs, so... no?

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

so Satan coming to earth and tempting humans is kind of Moot.

during the 1000 years of Satan's rule, humans can do what they want, worship the dark master and nothing will happen to them?

[AllisonWalker]

They'll be destoryed alongside Satan, according to the scripture.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

so there will be fireballs and stuff.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

SR, please go troll someone else.

Are the seals, signs, and stuff that Paul sees in Revelation to be taken Literal or figural?

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

like when Paul describes the moon turning to blood, does it really turn to blood or does the moon look red like it doesn't during a Lunar eclipse?

Revelation talks about the events being quick and without warning, will it really be that fast, or will it seem to move quick?

In one statement Paul talks about the sun going turning black and in the next the moon turns to blood. The sun and moon aren't seen at the same time unless it's an eclipse.

[Fat1Fared]

because dark is going to bust a blood cel soon, I will put my comments in the same page as Musigal

[darkarcher]

SR, please go troll someone else.

Are the seals, signs, and stuff that Paul sees in Revelation to be taken Literal or figural?

It's actually John who has the vision in Revelation.

Anyway, whether the judgments in Revelation are to be taken literally or figuratively is a popular matter of theology. There are many figurative and literal elements already being used, so it is hard to determine which applies to the judgments.

In short: We don't know, but it's probably a little of both.

[OverMind]

Haha, I never said all of them, but just because you went to mass and didn't like it doesn't mean you understand Christianity. Only going to one kind of church isn't enough.

You're missing the point.

One need not go to any church to make a personal opinion of Christianity. Or any religion for that matter.

It's not as if you, yourself, have visited various synagogues, various mosques, and a multitude of temples, in addition to a few churches to ultimately decide on a religion.

Taking your viewpoint, then, you're not in a position to dismiss Hinduism, say, because you don't "understand" it.

[AllisonWalker]

I've never dismissed any of those things. However, on the topic of Judaism, I know enough about it not to be interested.

[OverMind]

I've never dismissed any of those things. However, on the topic of Judaism, I know enough about it not to be interested.

If you claim to be Christian, you've got to reject all other religions and hold the position that they're wrong.

Sure, you can tolerate a Muslim or a Jew, or a Hindu even, but, at the end of the day, they're wrong, and they're going to hell because they don't believe in the Christian God. Heck, fundamentally, a non-Christian is just as bad as an atheist. One doubts and the other is just skewed, but both miss the mark completely.

So, if you're truly Christian, you automatically reject other faiths. But, according to you, in order to reject a faith (such as Christianity) one must delve more into the religion (such as visiting a church).

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

[AllisonWalker]

I don't believe they're going to hell. Don't put words in my mouth.

No.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

during Armageddon, it'll literally be a hell on earth.

[AllisonWalker]

Besides the fact that my God is the same God to both Muslims and Jews.

[Kochiha]

The world ends when you die, as far as you know.

[Kochiha]

That's a definite possibility. Who's to say that some world-ending disaster won't happen the second that you die?

Well, the idea here is that each individual creates their own world in which their beliefs hold true, and when that individual dies, that world ends. Another facet of infinite causalities.

[Kochiha]

...

That's bullshit.

The world is more than just me. My interpretation of the world ends, but the world itself doesn't. Very similar concepts, but with completely different connotations.

To a degree. But it's just one world that ends: yours. All of the other worlds still exist. It's how worlds are. The scope of what you can see, hear, touch, sense...and that's it. A world just is, and you make it.
However, at the same time, while the world may seem like a small place, it is unbelievably big. And the world, when it is viewed by those who know, is far larger than just one world can hold.

[AllisonWalker]

http://www.lunkos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/prophet_lol_cat.jpg

[Kochiha]

But the end sucked; it left us on a cliffhanger after failing to answer anything important other than who the father of the dead baby was...

[Kochiha]

The world doesn't belong to me, so it's not 'my' world. It's a world that I happen to exist in and interpret.

I prefer to think of this like a story. I play a role, just like anyone else, and the story is ongoing. I don't claim to be the main character. There could be spectators or there could not be. It doesn't matter. But even my interpretation isn't an entire world. Everything I can undergo in the unified world of all is only a fraction of the world as a whole.

Claiming that I own an entire world just seems to be arrogant to me.

Your interpretation of the world at large is a world itself.

[OverMind]

Assuming that a person interprets everything the same way as others do in a bible is the first step to your destruction.

People see things vastly differently, even within their own religions. It's just a fact. You can't very well base information collected by other sources on everyone because each individual is vastly different in their experiences and ideals. Basing an assumption made based on one Christian on another is just as invalid as if I assumed you hold the same religious beliefs as me just because we are both human beings.

It really doesn't work. Yes, it's more accurate your way, but in the case, it clearly didn't work out. Try to understand each individual person's beliefs before criticizing and attempting to lead them a certain way. It wouldn't do you much good for your argument to lead someone some way if you have to drag them there kicking and screaming, "This is the wrong way! Let me go!"

It's either you're right, and they're wrong. Or, it's everyone's right.

If it's the latter, then there's no point in religion.

[Kochiha]

I carry those beliefs around with me because they legitmise my actions in every possible regard. It just makes more sense to me than everybody living in one universe.
And nice tie-in, by the way.

[Kochiha]

It's either you're right, and they're wrong. Or, it's everyone's right.

If it's the latter, then there's no point in religion.

Ah, but what if everybody is both right AND wrong?

[OverMind]

Not necessarily. Even agreeing with your slightly flawed definition, there's much more than the end. It can give you a certain pleasure in life to do what you believe is right even if there isn't actually a form of justice telling you what is right and what is wrong. That pleasure can give a person a way to determine how to live their life, and it can cause pleasure to others as well.

Religion can give meaning to a meaningless life and cause the good of all humanity. The good of all humanity makes people feel good, for the most part.

There are negative aspects, to be sure, but ignoring the positive for the negative just makes you into a pessimist. Being a pessimist leads to... immature beliefs.

And, even so, at the end of the day, it's believing that you're right and everyone who disagrees is wrong.

If it wasn't, divisions wouldn't even exist within and across religions.

I'd think that this was a fact. But, from trying to piece together what you're saying, I'm not even sure if we're on the same page.

[OverMind]

You're just looking at things too black and white. There is a gray area. Some Christians may very well adopt certain Buddhist beliefs. People may create their own faith system that respects and accepts and believes all others.

Like me. I have my own belief system that adopts beliefs from different religions and ideas. I have logic. I refuse to believe that the same God that imbued us with logic and reason intended us to forego their use.

My personal faith system rejects God, but keeps everything else, does that count?

[OverMind]

You may very well be right. I don't have any concrete proof of God. Nothing tangible. I'm unable to make up my mind involving God.

So some days, I may believe in God, and other days, I may not. It depends on whether I'm depressed or not. If I'm depressed, I'll be naturally more pessimistic.

Mmm, I was actually pointing out the arbitrariness of picking and choosing beliefs (any belief, the one in God is no exception), and then cutting out the stuff you don't like (usually the "crazy" stuff), and then passing that off as legitimate.

Sure, the "gray area" idea is comforting, but 2,000 years of supposedly unaltered Leviticus says otherwise.