Parents

[ILoveRyou]

Love them or hate them, they're your own flesh and blood. Without them, you wouldn't exist at that very moment. That excuses the terrible things they do to some of their children... Right?
(By terrible, I mean a number of things. From putting pressure on them to be at the top of the class, and going so far as to child abuse and beating their children.)

Discuss.

[TheOcean]

I think that really depends on the "terrible things" you're talking about. If its being overbearing about their kid making straight A's because they want the child to have more chances at a successful life than they did, I can see that being acceptable. If they physically or emotionally abused their child it is probably not. Emotional abuse is a tricky subject though, and best left to the professionals.

[ILoveRyou]

Emotional abuse is a tricky subject though, and best left to the professionals.

Which is why we're simply discussing it.

[Fairyriverkit]

Parents did give birth to you and for that deserve a healthy amount of respect straight off the bat.But respect is a privelege and if you abuse it you lose it.So abusing their kids physically, mentally,sexually, and emotionally is not excused simply by them being the parents.Wouldn't it kinda make it worse because a parent should try to protect their child?

[Aninamar]

Ah, parents. Quite often they're full of shit, but we still owe some sort of degree of respect to them, unless the shit is overflowing from their mouths.

And no matter how good are they at their job, they will definitely be the masters at irritating people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVmWlAHogfI).

[notbrock]

ahhh remember when we were kids and didn't know better about how to get our parents into saying "yes" for things? :squintyface: let's face it we all have our own method in doing it. Any thoughts?

[Aninamar]

ahhh remember when we were kids and didn't know better about how to get our parents into saying "yes" for things? :squintyface: let's face it we all have our own method in doing it. Any thoughts?

Here's my method. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArJ3BEd3tyo)

[NinjaLlama]

i hate how im expected 2 respect my parents, yet their respect for me has 2 be earned :/ how does tht work??

[notbrock]

i hate how im expected 2 respect my parents, yet their respect for me has 2 be earned :/ how does tht work??

it's that simple "we are your parents and so we can make up the rules as we feel like it hahaha ha" :squintyface: how can anyone respect someone who doesn't respect them.

[NinjaLlama]

idk, but apparently thts normal. its lyk th rule "wot you use you put away when your finished with it" so my mum takes all my clothes out of my wardrobe 4 a clearout n then when i ask her 2 put it back she says she cant believe how rude i am. grrr

[notbrock]

idk, but apparently thts normal. its lyk th rule "wot you use you put away when your finished with it" so my mum takes all my clothes out of my wardrobe 4 a clearout n then when i ask her 2 put it back she says she cant believe how rude i am. grrr

shucks, you can actually feel the unfairness hitting you. luckily my mum isn't like that at all. we respect each other as adults and mother\daughter :furrysmile: i' one of the lucky ones i guess. the biggest problem with parents is that they seem so childish sometimes and that you feel you can't do anthing about it because they're the "parent":squintyface:

[Aninamar]

i hate how im expected 2 respect my parents, yet their respect for me has 2 be earned :/ how does tht work??

You owe a LOT of respect to a person who decided to vomit you out of her vagina instead of aborting you. You owe a LOT of respect to a person who didn't decide to leave you in a dumpster after witnessing how stupid her kid is.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1006/badumtsss.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/badumtsss.jpg/)

[MrsSallyBakura]

I agree with Aninamar.

Parents also know waaaaaaaay more about life than you do.

They don't always do the right thing, but they try. At the very least you should respect that.

[Eia]

My mom bugs the hell out of me. But she's my mom and I love her and I know she means well.

And that's that.

[JesusRocks]

Kids barely ever respect their parents... you'll find your respect for them grows as you get older, as you start to realise that the things you're going through are not entirely remote to the things they went through.

When I was younger I was all like "screw my dad's advice, I know better, because I'm going through it right now and it's different" ... nowadays, now that I'm going to be getting married, I realise I need his advice, and the advice of the rest of my family... and I realise that the advice he has given me over the years about other things has been necessary, and I respect him.

I guess it's just an age thing. Ordinary parents don't have to earn your respect at all, hell, they don't receive any respect from you for the vast majority of your childhood. You have to earn their respect because all you've done for most of your life is demand stuff from them.

Notice I said ordinary parents... I mean actual parents, not abusive parents. And no, stopping you from doing the things you want to do does not count as emotional abuse. If you teenagers actually think that nobody understands you, then you're idiots, no wonder your parents tell you to earn their respect.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I guess it's just an age thing. Ordinary parents don't have to earn your respect at all, hell, they don't receive any respect from you for the vast majority of your childhood. You have to earn their respect because all you've done for most of your life is demand stuff from them.

I agree with the whole post, but I'm quoting this paragraph for truth, especially the bolded part.

That, and I think it's a combination between age and maturity. You can be 20 and still believe that your parents are morons, even though they're just acting like normal parents. All depends on when you decide to grow up.

[Fat1Fared]

I agree with Aninamar.

Parents also know waaaaaaaay more about life than you do.

They don't always do the right thing, but they try. At the very least you should respect that.

[coff]Bullcrap[coff]

Ok, not sure if this is serious decision par-say but this personal talks seemed to be the interest topics at moment, (sadly) and I can say parents generally know bugger all about their kids and generally the only thing they are truly good at is messing them up, if this is wrong, then how come 90% of peoples problems, especially their mental ones start in childhood and have links to their parents in some way

-Parents all too often force their beliefs on their kids and force them to believe rubbish about both world and themselves, making their kids views very narrow in view, they also reflect all own personal failings onto their kids and use kids as both a form of self-redeemdenton and way to hide from these failings by blaming others for having them.

They also abuse their kids both physically as well as emotionally and almost always, whether by being to nice or too strict on them destroy their love of world, if you fid a parent who can balance the love-hate relationship in way which is not too strong one way or the other, I will give you a fire breathing dragon

They also get struck in their own pasts and glorify this past, saying you as there future of failure compared to this past

Next they lie to you about everything and not on about Santa here, i mean everything, according to my mother, I am an anti-social thug (despite never being involved in a fight in my life and having a record so clean, could eat off it) and she was worlds most loveable and respectable child ever, well not sure what past she is on about, but I know enough people from her past to know that drugs, sex and rock and roll is not just saying to her.

They set too high expectations of you, and constantly believe you need to be what can't while always expecting worse from you

They believe giving birth to you, makes them totiliruiran over your life

They believe smarter than you and make you believe that anything you think is wrong and if you dissent, they crush your beliefs until you conform and I mean crush, in very nasty and sultbe way, which is worse than any rant. Because I wanted to be Politian when I was kid, my mother told me I wasn't proper kid and my father told me I was setting my dreams little too high for a someone with my abilities

They generally just mess their kids up, why because they were messed up by their persants as well and just copy their way of doing it, and because of the closeness of emotional ties and fact struck to them, all problems parents have will effect you 10 times worse than anyone else ever could and the only way you can get away from that is too leave them as soon as can and find own way in the world, if I followed one of my parsents beliefs about this world, I would be emotional git, who blamed and hurt everyone who tried to get close to me and say everything in world is bad without ever doing anything to change it, oh and I would have very evil beliefs about everything like sex.....etc

My Parents have my thanks for creating me (though one of them, seems to hate and blame me for it and espaically who the other was, because of course I choose their sexual partners before I was born) and for giving me the basic needs for survival, I do not respect most of one of them's, beliefs or the emotional way they raised me, because for that, they would need to have done a good job and not left me an emotional and social crash site until the age of 16/17 when I finally decided to stop loving one of them because only way to stop that parent hurting me emotionally, physically, was just lucky I grew bigger than that parent.

-In short Sally, maybe your parsents weren't as unbalanced as mine (and not even going into what they actually said and did and still do to me and my sister, I will leave you with the result that my sister is 25 and still cries at night about our past) but parsents in general mess up their kids and just have too look at 90% of poeple and then look at their parsents and see where all went wrong (at least in western world)

=ow I know this going to different in both appication and extremity depending on where from and the level parsents give it/ you take, but whether they love too much or too little...etc, parsents are not great, and just because gave birth to you does not give them some get out of jail card about that, oh and if you think I am childish for beliving this, I can only say ether you were lucky with your parsents and they generally were not too bad for your and need to stop judging the rest of us who weren't so lucky, or intruth more likely don't even realise how messed you up and trapped you into their narrow views)
-Though I will agree, those who think parsents are bad because will not put cloths back in draws, try living in house where printers are thrown across a room because not put away

[MrsSallyBakura]

I'm not saying that abusive parents should get away with murder just because they're your parents (ie look at JR's post), but first of all, you're WAY fudging the statistics here. 90%? Please. You don't know 90% of the people in the world so why do you think you can make that claim? Is there some sort of study?

Yes, parents can be crap. But like you said, parents who simply don't put their kids' clothes back aren't all that bad...

I think you're putting your personal experiences ahead of reality.

Parents all too often force their beliefs on their kids and force them to believe rubbish about both world and themselves, making their kids views very narrow in view, they also reflect all own personal failings onto their kids and use kids as both a form of self-redeemdenton and way to hide from these failings by blaming others for having them.

So, in short: Parents should never raise their kids to believe what their parents believe.

Well why do you think parents do that in the first place? Because a 5 year old can really choose for themselves what to believe in, even though they've hardly seen any of the world? Parents do this because they care about the well-being of their children. By the time the kids are old enough to think for themselves, they have a right to tell their parents, "I don't want to go to church anymore, please don't make me go." At that point, what good will it do to make a kid who won't even pay attention in church go?

They also abuse their kids both physically as well as emotionally and almost always, whether by being to nice or too strict on them destroy their love of world, if you fid a parent who can balance the love-hate relationship in way which is not too strong one way or the other, I will give you a fire breathing dragon

Your parents = all parents. Ayup, so true. :V

Next they lie to you about everything and not on about Santa here, i mean everything, according to my mother, I am an anti-social thug (despite never being involved in a fight in my life and having a record so clean, could eat off it) and she was worlds most loveable and respectable child ever, well not sure what past she is on about, but I know enough people from her past to know that drugs, sex and rock and roll is not just saying to her.

Must I reiterate? Just because your mom has issues and claims you to be something you're not (and something that she's not), it doesn't mean that you can put that kind of tag on everyone else's parents. That's what we like to call generalizing, even if you know several other people with parents like this.
Again, what JR was talking about in terms of 'normal' parents doesn't involve garbage like this. Abusive parents are a totally different realm of discussion. And they don't compile 90% of parents in the world.

They believe giving birth to you, makes them totiliruiran over your life

If they believe that while you are a completely independent adult, then there's something wrong with them. But until you break off financial ties with them, until you become a legal adult, they kind of are in charge. Maybe not in a totalitarian way, but I think you may be overreacting here.

They believe smarter than you and make you believe that anything you think is wrong and if you dissent, they crush your beliefs until you conform and I mean crush, in very nasty and sultbe way, which is worse than any rant. Because I wanted to be Politian when I was kid, my mother told me I wasn't proper kid and my father told me I was setting my dreams little too high for a someone with my abilities

Sorry that happened, but again... your parents =/= all parents. You cannot say, "All parents are like this because my parents were like this." That's not a very logical argument at all.

They generally just mess their kids up

I think you make a good point that parents learn by example, but that doesn't mean that people with good parents will also be good parents and vice versa. It all depends on the wisdom they gained throughout life.

From what I can gather, you do believe that you're putting your personal experiences ahead of reality. I mean, if your parents were bad, then your parents were bad and there isn't anyone can say that will change that.

I just don't think that you can call all parents bad just because you had crappy ones.

[Fat1Fared]

Ok Sally, I am going to have sort of bypass 90% (and notice use of word 90%, not being real statistic again <facepalm> I mean seriously sally if I was going make up statistic's, I would lie better than that, not even sure if there is real statistical levy on this because seems impossible to make one in such an area and from that alone, even if nothing else said it, i thought it would be evidential that it was not a real stat, just a term of speech) of your agrument as you have done your normal trick of, if cannot rebutt an agrument but don't agree with it, so you just ignore fundermental words within it and rebutt half of it (anyone can rebutt if only argue half of it sally) and all I can say is, I use the words like application and extremity to show I understand this is going to have lot of relativity to it, but generally I find parents, no matter how extreme or (however inadequate a term it maybe) "ordinary" are bad at raising their children and cause them a lot of problems (note word problems, not just pain) and no this is not just my own life, this something I have seen in many places and cultures, but only feel comfortable using myself as a vague example as not my place to use others, as know myself how personal a thing this is and so think not right to use others as examples.
=I was not going to comment on this (for clear reasons,) until saw your comment which just struck a nerve shell we say.

PS though to make it more clear, I will add, I do not just mean problems in terms of too much negative enforcement, I consider too much positive enforcement abuse as well.

Oh and no I do not believe parents should raise their kids to their beliefs, because I have seen too many poeple limit their views of world because of it. I do not want kids at this moment in time, but if it happens that this changes, then 1 thing I will not do is, is force them to be atheist, or lawyer or....etc, I will make their upbringing as nutrual as is humanly possible, I will take them to churches, to Moceshs, to scientific museums, leave them open to different kinds of music, different cultures, I will want them to experience as much as this world can offer them and let them choose for themselves what wish to take from it and give to it (also before do that trick again, note use of words humanly possible)

PS also your whole point about this being personal, makes no sense anyway, of course this is personal, its about parents therefore 100% subjective

[xHannahx]

My dad can be very violent sometimes which I have noticed has influenced my older brother to be so as well. However I don't blame my dad for this, it's most likely just a personality trait which was inherited by my brother. But to be honest it does scare me sometimes, I try to ignore them and wait for them to leave, either that or I leave.
I'm glad I have my mum though, she's patient and kind and does anything for me and my brother, and I like to think I take after her more than my dad. I don't think I've ever had major arguments with my mum, but I sometimes find it difficult to be close to my dad because of things he's done in the past. I do love them both though.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Oh and no I do not believe parents should raise their kids to their beliefs, because I have seen too many poeple limit their views of world because of it.

I think every single human being in the world has a limited world view. Nobody knows everything about everything.

And just because parents raise their kids to be a certain way, it doesn't mean that the kids will turn out just like their parents in regards to their beliefs. Even though both my parents are Catholic, I was raised Catholic, and I am still Catholic, it doesn't mean that I believe every single thing that my parents believe. As an adult, I have drifted from my parents' expectations of me in my beliefs and follow it because it is my choice.
And just because I'm Catholic, it doesn't mean that I know or understand nothing about other faiths, beliefs, viewpoints, etc. I make mistakes and generalizations and such, but everybody does.

Also, to a certain degree, if you have children and you don't take them to church, you're technically 'forcing' them to not practice religion. In a way you are still imposing your beliefs on your children, just not directly. Do you know what I'm saying? I know that it's not the same thing as bringing your kids to church, but it's still a perspective to think about.

Although I do have a couple of questions:

1. Why do you think that good-intentioned parents would bring their kids to church in the first place?

2. If parents cause so many problems, then what is the solution?

[Fat1Fared]

sally is there any point talking here as even the parts you are anwsering your ignoring what putting <facepalm>

=However sally do you want to know, what really got me about your comments, it was way you said it, as much as what you said, that you sounded completely condescending, even if was not your intention, it was your result. "your just not as enlightened as me yet, and that is why do not appreciate your parents, but one day you may be lucky enough to be like me and see I am right all along"
=I bet to most of the users on here, it sounded just like most of there presents do, and there be little lot logic to what you said in some cases (as the truth will be a middle ground of what is said as always is but no where near the arbitrary level you made it out to be)
-And this is not what they needed to hear, as to me this sounded like you were basically saying your just unappreciative runts who will one day learn your own folly, and that especially erked me, as think I earned the right to be unappreciative of some of my past, especially as I can still say that I would not change it and that realise not worst it could be.
-The problem is sally, you do not know enough of their lives to make such a judgment in way you did. Now not to blow smoke up own ass (which why did not comment on it when comment was made) but why do you think Moko said that my advise despite being same as other peoples, seemed to make more sense,

-Why was that? I like to think, it was because rather than coming off like I knew all about her and condescendingly knew just what her problem was and that I could deal with it so easily myself, which would only serve to make her make her feel small and childish for having her problems, I showed empathy to her and showed that i didn't know all about her or her problems, and wasn’t any better at dealing with them when I went through them, (if did at all) but that I felt I knew enough to maybe give her my angle on her situation, to give her another view to look at, while not making her own one completely redundant. I also explicitly tried to make her understand i did think she was stupid for having this problem or childish, and that I understood that much, because I knew enough to know I didn't understand her problems as were for her personally, which meant I had no right to belittle them.

-Need to remember Sally, even if the problem or view did seem small and wrong to me/you, need to remember, that these are people who are younger than us, and so probably feel completely alone in this world (I know I did) and do not know anyone to talk to about these problems, because friends will be too embarrassing to ask and unless lucky like me your siblings won't help ether and so if parents just condescending gits to you, then you will naturally not Respect or open up to them and if cannot open to them, they cannot understand you, but fundamentally, its your fault for not merely showing that little bit of empathy and understanding and compassion to them, rather than just making them feel small and stupid for their problems.

=The reason you sound like parent and that is bad thing to me, is because basically seemed to suffer from the same very problem most parents have, you think because you had similar problems or because older or the simple fact your parent, that makes you know more, always rigyht and that you understand them completely and this will only serve to make people feel small and childish with their problems, when really all people generally want is little empathy. I have found, that if you give them that, then they will be more than willing to take your advise (I learnt how to give people advise by basically doing the complete opposite to how my one of my parents gave me advise and it seems to work)

=What is the solution, you ask that like there is one hahahahaha (this is mostly sardonic laugh, as don't know any other way to laugh at it,) I'm smart sally, I am not wise

-As for other one, not even going there as will just turn another thread into mindless god talk, all say is, good intentions are very different to good actions

[MrsSallyBakura]

The way I said it? You're interpreting my posts based on your emotional convictions, not based on what I actually said. I never made any sort of claim that I'm 'smarter' or 'above' anyone else, nor did I imply it (at least, not purposefully. If anyone in this thread feels like I'm berating them personally then they can talk to me via PM or something).

Although I'm curious as to why you're bugging me about it instead of Aninamar, since he technically said it first.

I bet to most of the users on here, it sounded just like most of there presents do, and there be little lot logic to what you said in some cases (as the truth will be a middle ground of what is said as always is but no where near the arbitrary level you made it out to be)

I sound like their parents? Doubt it. I'm only 20. At this point in my life I couldn't parent anyone even if you paid me (although the money would be nice, lol).

And this is not what they needed to hear, as to me this sounded like you were basically saying your just unappreciative runts who will one day learn your own folly, and that especially erked me, as think I earned the right to be unappreciative of some of my past, especially as I can still say that I would not change it and that realise not worst it could be.

Well... that's actually what a lot of people turn out to be. They hate their parents when they're younger, and then they grow up and realize that they weren't that bad of people. Depends on the parents, of course. Certainly there are abusive parents, as JR pointed out and I agreed with, and certainly those abusive parents don't have any right to step on their children, ever.

The point I was trying to make is that, well, even when I myself was a teenager, I always thought that the rivalry between parents and children was kinda stupid. I didn't agree with everything my parents said, but I rarely fought with them because I figured that they were right about 80% of the time.

But have you ever seen/heard this quote from Mark Twain?
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years.

This quote is more-or-less what I base my 'parental philosophy' on. Again, this does not apply to abusive parents.

The problem is sally, you do not know enough of their lives to make such a judgment in way you did. Now not to blow smoke up own ass (which why did not comment on it when comment was made) but why do you think Moko said that my advise despite being same as other peoples, seemed to make more sense,

Because you said it differently than I did? You made specific examples of how you don't really know your sexuality while you're 11/12. That's why it made more sense. I didn't know how to explain it further. And now I do. I'm not the perfect poster. I know this.

Why was that? I like to think, it was because rather than coming off like I knew all about her and condescendingly knew just what her problem was and that I could deal with it so easily myself, which would only serve to make her make her feel small and childish for having her problems, I showed empathy to her and showed that i didn't know all about her or her problems, and wasn’t any better at dealing with them when I went through them, (if did at all) but that I felt I knew enough to maybe give her my angle on her situation, to give her another view to look at, while not making her own one completely redundant. I also explicitly tried to make her understand i did think she was stupid for having this problem or childish, and that I understood that much, because I knew enough to know I didn't understand her problems as were for her personally, which meant I had no right to belittle them.

I wasn't trying to belittle anyone or anything. You don't need to make a public post about how much more amazing of a person you are. :P

Though seriously, I thought you were just adding to my post. I think that's part of a point of a discussion... for one person to say one thing and for others to add onto it.

Need to remember Sally, even if the problem or view did seem small and wrong to me/you, need to remember, that these are people who are younger than us, and so probably feel completely alone in this world (I know I did) and do not know anyone to talk to about these problems, because friends will be too embarrassing to ask and unless lucky like me your siblings won't help ether and so if parents just condescending gits to you, then you will naturally not Respect or open up to them and if cannot open to them, they cannot understand you, but fundamentally, its your fault for not merely showing that little bit of empathy and understanding and compassion to them, rather than just making them feel small and stupid for their problems.

Why are you preaching to me? Anyone who is my friend can tell you that I do listen to their problems when they come to me in person. Just because I don't show that side in Serious Discussions all the time it doesn't mean that I'm devoid of it. You're making specific judgment calls on me, too.

Why are you even bringing personal matters into the thread? They don't belong here. If you think it's such an issue then I'm a simple PM away.

I have never purposefully talked down on anyone. Of course I make mistakes just like every other human being on this planet, but I know how to show empathy and I know that 11 year olds are just as human as I am. Their problems are real. My problems when I was a teenager were real. I doubt that there's even such a thing as a fake or silly problem.

The reason you sound like parent and that is bad thing to me, is because basically seemed to suffer from the same very problem most parents have, you think because you had similar problems or because older or the simple fact your parent, that makes you know more, always rigyht and that you understand them completely

More judgment calls on me. Slander, I like to call it.

First of all, the older the wiser. It's not always true, but I know that I've grown up a lot since I was 14, and 10 years from now I'm going to grow up even more. I won't stop growing as a person until I die. A lot of growing up is based on experience. There are people younger than I am who know truths about life that I do not know. I am certain of this.

But for the love of God, I do not believe that I am always right.

And I most certainly don't believe that my parents are always right, either. I'm pretty sure I've believed that for most of my life. The funny thing is that a lot of the time, when I thought that my parents were wrong, they did end up being right. Not all the time, but a lot of the time, especially when I was younger.

An example of how I don't believe that they're always right... you know that I've met some of the people of this forum, right? My parents don't like that I've done such a thing. I understand why they'd be worried, but that's only considering their lack of understanding when it comes to the Internet world. I know why they feel that way, but I think that they're worrying needlessly. If I were 3 years younger, they would have objected to me driving anywhere to see my friends. But since I'm an adult, I don't have to obey their every will and they know it.

What is the solution, you ask that like there is one hahahahaha (this is mostly sardonic laugh, as don't know any other way to laugh at it,) I'm smart sally, I am not wise

Well, that's kinda why I asked the question in the first place... considering that you think that parents are a problem in and of themselves, it seemed like the only solution was for people to birth babies and leave them in the wild for them to fend for themselves. But I didn't want to make any assumptions.

As for other one, not even going there as will just turn another thread into mindless god talk, all say is, good intentions are very different to good actions

Not necessarily. Try answering the question first (and not so vaguely, because I do agree that good intentions =/= good actions) and we'll see where it goes from there. If it gets too off-topic we can always stop the discussion.

I would appreciate it if you would reply to my points individually...

[Fat1Fared]

Ok, seeing as asked me to go through it bit by bit, I will do so to within what I think is reasonable, as some points will answer one another

PS though I do agree this is deviating off topic, so going to make this last one I make on this and if you wish to state anything more, do so, but I will not response so as to make more comments

The way I said it? You're interpreting my posts based on your emotional convictions, not based on what I actually said. I never made any sort of claim that I'm 'smarter' or 'above' anyone else, nor did I imply it (at least, not purposefully. If anyone in this thread feels like I'm berating them personally then they can talk to me via PM or something).

Although I'm curious as to why you're bugging me about it instead of Aninamar, since he technically said it first.


Ok, straight away your making massive assumptions about me and my movitives while ignoring key points I made, once again sally and this is the problem. I mean, I actually said whether you intended this directly or not, this how you appeared and my emotions are a side point, of course my emotions come into play here, its about parents, that is emotionally charged area, I have never denied that point, the thing is you seem to think this should not be, well afraid to tell you it will be, this is not something people are going to step back from and objectively look at, because this is area which invites you to look at at it subjectively as there is no objective ideal to it.

=PS I’m not bugging you, I made this comment to all, your one responding, as for why I quote you, well I didn’t see Aninamars and yours was more directly saying what I wished to rebut than JR did. (PSS like always said, if do not wish to have idea’s rejected, never state them)

PSSS finally on this point, you have misunderstood the very core of my intentions, this is not a “aberration” (if wish to use such a term) of you as a person, this is a “aberration” of your comment, which symbolizes a belief people hold, which is something I specially disgree with.


I sound like their parents? Doubt it. I'm only 20. At this point in my life I couldn't parent anyone even if you paid me (although the money would be nice, lol).


-If I was to go through everything which was wrong with this comment, it would take an age so stick to core points:-
1=I said that in a negative way, so you stating you would not be ready to be a parent, supports my point,
2=Does not matter if you think your ready to be a parent or not…..etc, you still have the same demeanor that many parents present to their children which I believe causes isolation between the two


Well... that's actually what a lot of people turn out to be. They hate their parents when they're younger, and then they grow up and realize that they weren't that bad of people. Depends on the parents, of course. Certainly there are abusive parents, as JR pointed out and I agreed with, and certainly those abusive parents don't have any right to step on their children, ever.


=Hate is strong word, I would use far less specific and more broadly applicable one, if it was me, but that is mostly a moot point, as it is this belief in general I am against, not all kids who believe their parents are crap are wrong and not all kids who love their parents are right and you keep coming back to this idea of “normal” parents and “abusive” parents. That is far too arbitrary an ideal because parents do not need to be extreme in this misdirection’s to create massive problems for their children, whether it be positive or negative enforcement, which they misapply.

=I mean what is this “normal” parent you bring up to me, there is no such thing, because the needs of a child and the ways of parenting are so vast, diverse and complicated as well as massively subjective, to use any form of generalization like “normal” parent is completely inadequate, as its not just the way the parents act, but the responses of their children, some children may come out far more healthy than others, despite having “far” more extreme situations. This is one of those areas where need to be far more subjective and my thing is, anyone who makes this swiping statements within it, (whether it is me with my belief parents generally suck or you thinking there generally good) is going to be completely wrong, however the difference between our beliefs is this. At least I am showing empathy to a besieged party, and I am noticeably holding back from making swiping judgment or advise statements in this area against those I am talking too, because any advise or judgment I could make would be wrong and condescending, now if someone asked me specifically or depending on the case, the maybe even the world at large for my take/advise on something, I would give it, (tepidity) but in this area, its cannot be given in this swiping way you and JR have, without you coming off very badly and almost belittling it.


The point I was trying to make is that, well, even when I myself was a teenager, I always thought that the rivalry between parents and children was kinda stupid. I didn't agree with everything my parents said, but I rarely fought with them because I figured that they were right about 80% of the time.

But have you ever seen/heard this quote from Mark Twain?


This quote is more-or-less what I base my 'parental philosophy' on. Again, this does not apply to abusive parents.


Good for you, whether it be in your blissful ignorance or willful arrogance (this was said in jest,) you were lucky that you agreed with them, that doesn’t mean those who don’t, are lesser than you, and once again that how you come off with these comments, like you feel your stance on this matter makes you more enlightened than those of us who couldn’t/wouldn’t agree with our parents. Just because your parents said things which you agrees with, doesn’t mean you were right to agree with them or those who don’t have such relationship were wrong not too


Because you said it differently than I did? You made specific examples of how you don't really know your sexuality while you're 11/12. That's why it made more sense. I didn't know how to explain it further. And now I do. I'm not the perfect poster. I know this.


-No, it was fact, I specially said that I do not think the feelings had were wrong or made her childish, but this moot point, I was merely using as example of how I would think such advise needs to be given, I know I am arrogant most of time, but when comes to helping people I try to be humble about it, because otherwise no matter how good what I say is, its meaning will be lost.
PS removed the last too comments as to add anything more would be a redundant battle of ego’s and so think all needs to be said here, already covered above


Why are you preaching to me? Anyone who is my friend can tell you that I do listen to their problems when they come to me in person. Just because I don't show that side in Serious Discussions all the time it doesn't mean that I'm devoid of it. You're making specific judgment calls on me, too.


2 differences:-

1=Making it on specific comment you made, (not you personally/generally)
2=Making on specific case, not swiping statement against the world


Why are you even bringing personal matters into the thread? They don't belong here. If you think it's such an issue then I'm a simple PM away.


Because there is nothing personal about your parents <facepalm>


I have never purposefully talked down on anyone. Of course I make mistakes just like every other human being on this planet, but I know how to show empathy and I know that 11 year olds are just as human as I am. Their problems are real. My problems when I was a teenager were real. I doubt that there's even such a thing as a fake or silly problem.



First of all, the older the wiser. It's not always true, but I know that I've grown up a lot since I was 14, and 10 years from now I'm going to grow up even more. I won't stop growing as a person until I die. A lot of growing up is based on experience. There are people younger than I am who know truths about life that I do not know. I am certain of this.


I personally believe age has very little to do with wisdom, normally children can give wisdom adults never could, because they are not yet burdened with cynicism and mundrene reality of everyday life.
=Besides people who are truly “wise” will not know it (great Tao Sho quote for that) and will have innaturally built into them, because wisdom is something which cannot be truly learned, understood and factualised, only perceived.

=As for experience, yes it can help massively, but someone who is 13 in somewhere like poorest area of Africa is probably going to have more and / or divserse experience than someone from Middle class USA, who is 19, age does not corrulate well into equitation experience.

=And finally in words of Lord Keith ”Change does not always mean something becomes better and to forget beliefs of ones past is to waste what one once knew!” (just because view changes doesn’t mean improved)


More judgment calls on me. Slander, I like to call it.


Learn what slander is, then we can talk about it ^_-


But for the love of God, I do not believe that I am always right.

And I most certainly don't believe that my parents are always right, either. I'm pretty sure I've believed that for most of my life. The funny thing is that a lot of the time, when I thought that my parents were wrong, they did end up being right. Not all the time, but a lot of the time, especially when I was younger.


You do, but there is nothing wrong with that, we all do, believe we are always right, even when were forced to admit we’re wrong (wish remember who said that, because right on so many levels)

=Running out of time, so wrap this up, sally this not about ether of needing to prove which side did what, I just didn’t like what you said and made you aware of it


Well, that's kinda why I asked the question in the first place... considering that you think that parents are a problem in and of themselves, it seemed like the only solution was for people to birth babies and leave them in the wild for them to fend for themselves. But I didn't want to make any assumptions.


-Knew you would say this, which is why said that ^_- (sally the logic that something must be good because society doesn’t use something else better, doesn’t really work, just because its main thing used at moment does not mean it is good, PS as for wild comment, that is just stupid and only surmise you made it in jest, as really cannot understand how else works, when plenty of cultures which do not use family unit and work very well)


Not necessarily. Try answering the question first (and not so vaguely, because I do agree that good intentions =/= good actions) and we'll see where it goes from there. If it gets too off-topic we can always stop the discussion.

I would appreciate it if you would reply to my points individually...

Sally we both know what will be said, so lets not bother saying it all again, when always say it

[darkarcher]

...this topic is neither concise nor coherent. Sally and Fared, please return to the topic at hand.

Fared, please try to be concise with your posts, as drawing out your arguments causes people to misunderstand you.

Kids barely ever respect their parents... you'll find your respect for them grows as you get older, as you start to realise that the things you're going through are not entirely remote to the things they went through.

When I was younger I was all like "screw my dad's advice, I know better, because I'm going through it right now and it's different" ... nowadays, now that I'm going to be getting married, I realise I need his advice, and the advice of the rest of my family... and I realise that the advice he has given me over the years about other things has been necessary, and I respect him.

I guess it's just an age thing. Ordinary parents don't have to earn your respect at all, hell, they don't receive any respect from you for the vast majority of your childhood. You have to earn their respect because all you've done for most of your life is demand stuff from them.

Notice I said ordinary parents... I mean actual parents, not abusive parents. And no, stopping you from doing the things you want to do does not count as emotional abuse. If you teenagers actually think that nobody understands you, then you're idiots, no wonder your parents tell you to earn their respect.

This is probably the post that I agree with the most, and I'm sure Fared is going to hop in and say (once again) that to classify parents as abusive or ordinary is some sort of fallacy, so I will quickly address that.

Fared, you seem to think that parents generally screw up their children. Frankly, I feel like that view is very limited beyond a single generation. Yes you addressed the fact that you think parents are crappy parents because their parents were crappy, but I think that this is a quite close-minded and fatalistic view. If it is indeed true, then only people with "good" parents could ever hope to be "good" parents (good being quoted since you will likely argue that good is some sort of subjective concept).

Instead, I feel that in general, parents really do have the best interests of their child in mind. Sure they may make mistakes (as all humans are wont to do), but in general they succeed in creating a "normal" and "functional" member of society (once again quoted for subjectiveness).

The final point I want to address is concerning whether parents should try to pass on their beliefs to their children. I think that they should. Fared, you seem to think that parents should not do so on the grounds that they might be wrong, but at the same time you said to Sally that every single person thinks that they are irrevocably right (although you seem to hold yourself in a different light in that you consider yourself to be truly tolerant with full understanding that you could be wrong, but I digress).

My question is, if a person thinks that they are right, should they not try to convince others (including their children) that those views are right as well? Of course, parents should always try to stimulate their children to make their own choices, and should allow children to learn from various viewpoints, but in the end everyone wants other people to view things in the same way that they do.

Anyway, here's hoping that this topic can get back on track.

[Fat1Fared]

-Ok, Dark seeing as I have neither the time nor the energy to really bother with topic much more, just going to make few comments here as limited as can:-

1=I linked all my comments to topic at hand, because everything was to do with comment sally made directly on this and I already said I was finished, so telling me to stop is redundent at best dark

2=Please refame from telling me how to structure my posts, I do not believe that is something within your role, and I form my posts in a way which is pleasing to me and that is fine for me. If you do not like this form of posting ether ignore my posts or "live with them" (for want of better term) and in same way I accept your form of posting, please may you accept mine,

3=I am not adding anymore to this thing on the generalizations of parenting that several poeple made, as like I said, I do not wish too and already feel made my stance clear, that I think it doesn't work to use the inadequate terms you so willingly do. So please do don't be so presumptive that I will and derisive in way you state so

4=Poeple who use the term closed minded are normally forfeiting any meaningful agrument from the go, as it is cop-out term, used when nothing meaningful to add and just wish to try and throw others off balance, (this is espically so, when the person the term used against is only person willing to admit this is just their opinion and that therefore not truth, merely belief which cannot be right or wrong because of this and if there is a definitative right answer, knows cannot be his answer, or any other answer put here, because of the inexplainable nature of subject at hand)

5=Good is not arability or real and I believe very child needs an individual style of parenting, because no style will work for very child, and so making these swiping statments will always be inadequate in my opinion. Also this is the reason I believ good parenting does not follow patterns or generation lines, as the reactiveness of child just as important as the activeness of the parent.

6="very limited beyond a single generation" I think know what you mean, but if I am right, then this insane comment, however rather than ranting on for 10 minutes about wrong thing, going to ask you elaborate more, so may make sure I am understanding you correctly.

7=Dark I would hope someone like you of all poeple would understand that intentions are meaningless when directly confronted against the nature of results, and so when judging them, they must be judged firmly in proportion to their results and with the balance of negative favor firmly set in one cort.

8=

that every single person thinks that they are irrevocably right (although you seem to hold yourself in a different light in that you consider yourself to be truly tolerant with full understanding that you could be wrong, but I digress).

This is shaming comment, which barely warrants an answer and if you truly believe that about me, I have clearly shown myself in a poor light because I would never consider myself "truly tolerant" as such a thing is inhuman, I merely like to believe that though I have my beliefs, I am able to remember that having and believing my beliefs are right, is very different to believing they are truth and / or fact.

9=Dark, if want your kids to believe and foresee the world as you do, rather than find and experience one of their own, do so, that is your choice, but if I have children, I want them to as free as this world will allow them to be and to believe what they want too. I like to believe, that even if they wanted to be Christian Cultist, I would not them they are wrong.
=I may as they grow up, let them know my beliefs, because almost inhuman to my own nature not too, but I wouldn't try to convince them of it (or least to point that is human possible as accept even stating what believe has some effect, but not direct one) as difference between stating what you believe and stating what believe others should believe

edit

Screw it, lets make it round 10
10=Can someone please tell me what constitutes these:-
A=Ordinary parents
B=Abusive parents
C=Good (whether generally or linked to this directly)

[darkarcher]

2=Please refame from telling me how to structure my posts, I do not believe that is something within your role, and I form my posts in a way which is pleasing to me and that is fine for me. If you do not like this form of posting ether ignore my posts or "live with them" (for want of better term) and in same way I accept your form of posting, please may you accept mine,
It was a simple request and nothing more. You tend to bring up the point a lot that people don't understand what you're trying to say so I was offering a helpful suggestion.
3=I am not adding anymore to this thing on the generalizations of parenting that several poeple made, as like I said, I do not wish too and already feel made my stance clear, that I think it doesn't work to use the inadequate terms you so willingly do. So please do don't be so presumptive that I will and derisive in way you state so
Very well. I apologize for assuming you would reiterate an earlier point you made. I simply use those terms for lack of better definitions, but I thought of something earlier today that adds more definition to the concept of parenting and I shall work on constructing that into a more meaningful post a bit later.
4=Poeple who use the term closed minded are normally forfeiting any meaningful agrument from the go, as it is cop-out term, used when nothing meaningful to add and just wish to try and throw others off balance,
It was not my intention to imply that you were close-minded, merely that the point you had presented left very little leeway whatsoever regarding the effects of nurturing on a child's ability to one day be a parent.
(this is espically so, when the person the term used against is only person willing to admit this is just their opinion and that therefore not truth, merely belief which cannot be right or wrong because of this and if there is a definitative right answer, knows cannot be his answer, or any other answer put here, because of the inexplainable nature of subject at hand)
This is the kind of statement that warranted the comment I made to which you responded in number 8. Whether you intend to do so or not, you come across with the feeling that you consider yourself superior due to your viewpoint, the same kind of thing that you accuse others of having.
5=Good is not arability or real and the fact is very child needs individual style of parsenting so making these swiping statments will always be inadequate in my opinion. Also this is the reason I believ good parenting does not follow patterns or generation lines, as the reactiveness of child just as important as the activeness of the parent.
The entire reason I put "good" in quotes is that I already assumed you were going to make this point and was trying to prevent it by offering a less subjective viewpoint on the subject. I don't really care to split hairs over some definition of a word that most people already have a preconceived notion for.
6="very limited beyond a single generation" I think know what you mean, but if I am right, then this insane comment, however rather than ranting on for 10 minutes about wrong thing, going to ask you elaborate more, so may make sure I am understanding you correctly.
My intention was to refer to the fact that at some point you said that parents are inherently bad at what they do because their parents were inherently bad at what they did. I find this view, as stated earlier, to be fatalistic in that it offers no means of escape. In your response earlier you offered up the fact that the child's reaction to parenting plays a major role in this, which is sort of what I was getting at, but it also brings up the point that until now you have been solely blaming parents for any problems in the upbringing of children.
7=Dark I would hope someone like you of all poeple would understand that intentions are meaningless when directly confronted against the nature of results, and so when judging them, they must be judged firmly in proportion to their results and with the balance of negative favor firmly set in one cort.
I agree with you that intentions should not take precedence over results, yet to hear your opinion on parenting earlier, pretty much all the results are negative. I believe that such a thing is not so.
8=This is shaming comment, which barely warrants an answer and if you truly believe that about me, I have clearly shown myself in a poor light because I would never consider myself "truly tolerant" as such a thing is inhuman, I merely like to believe that though I have my beliefs, I am able to remember that having and believing my beliefs are right, is very different to believing they are truth and / or fact.
I used the wrong terminology here. I meant to say that you accuse others of believing themselves to be solely in the right when you come across the same way.
9=Dark, if want your kids to believe and foresee the world as you do, rather than find and experience one of their own, do so, that is your choice, but if I have children, I want them to as free as this world will allow them to be and to believe what they want too. I like to believe, that even if they wanted to be Christian Cultist, I would not them they are wrong.
=I may as they grow up, let them know my beliefs, because almost inhuman to my own nature not too, but I wouldn't try to convince them of it (or least to point that is human possible as accept even stating what believe has some effect, but not direct one) as difference between stating what you believe and stating what believe others should believe
How you wish to raise your children is your business. I was referring to the fact that you believe no parent should be allowed to attempt to instill their own beliefs into their children. I already admitted the fact that there is also necessity for children to experience many viewpoints, so I am unsure what sort of argument you are attempting to make here. It's not like their are only two sides to this (only parental guidance versus only child's choice), it is a balancing act and both aspects are beneficial to the overall growth of the child.

Anyway, I mentioned that I had thought of something interesting. I will attempt to find some information on it and post it later.
EDIT: Also, the stuff that I thought of has to deal with your point 10, Fared, so I'll answer that in a little while.

[darkarcher]

Instead of waxing philosophical over the subject that came to mind, I will simply post a link.

Four Parenting Styles (http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm)

I feel that the Authoritarian style, in more extreme cases, is most in line with what most people consider to be "abusive" parenting. However, neglect can also be a form of abuse, so Uninvolved parenting also qualifies in the more extreme cases.

There is not really a norm for parenting, so I will discard the use of "ordinary" and say that good parenting is most in line with the Authoritative style, as shown by the psychological studies mentioned in that article.

[Fat1Fared]

It was a simple request and nothing more. You tend to bring up the point a lot that people don't understand what you're trying to say so I was offering a helpful suggestion.


Indeed, though most of time, I find it is sally who misunderstands me, rather lot of poeple, whether this is down fact me and her talk most or not is different matter, however the way I write is for a personal reason, that I get tire of poeple holepicking my arguments, so I make sure that everything I can think of, is there to cover all bases, meaning they need to tackle my main point rather than holepick, of course, this does not always works because some poeple just ignore this extra effort/word use and holepick anyway, but still I do it, as way I like too


Very well. I apologize for assuming you would reiterate an earlier point you made. I simply use those terms for lack of better definitions, but I thought of something earlier today that adds more definition to the concept of parenting and I shall work on constructing that into a more meaningful post a bit later.


=Dark do like coming off as condescending or is it merely your air ^_- (I'm messing with you, just so know)


It was not my intention to imply that you were close-minded, merely that the point you had presented left very little leeway whatsoever regarding the effects of nurturing on a child's ability to one day be a parent.


-Something I admitted too and why stated this was an opinion which knew wasn't truth, merely my subjective and therefore limited view


This is the kind of statement that warranted the comment I made to which you responded in number 8. Whether you intend to do so or not, you come across with the feeling that you consider yourself superior due to your viewpoint, the same kind of thing that you accuse others of having.


-Indeed, well my feeling that rather than an actual point, this is you trying to present some moral lesson, aside, the reason I always state when things are my opinion is because I wish for poeple to understand that is all I consider it, I dislike it when poeple talk about their opinions like facts, so I try my hardest to make sure I don't


The entire reason I put "good" in quotes is that I already assumed you were going to make this point and was trying to prevent it by offering a less subjective viewpoint on the subject. I don't really care to split hairs over some definition of a word that most people already have a preconceived notion for.


And my viewpoint is that, that preconceived viewpoint is facevalue taken at best and needs more indepth consideration than poeple who use it are giving it,
=Like said, tell what this "good parent" is, (though we both know, that I will end up rejecting it, as is the nature of these things)


My intention was to refer to the fact that at some point you said that parents are inherently bad at what they do because their parents were inherently bad at what they did. I find this view, as stated earlier, to be fatalistic in that it offers no means of escape. In your response earlier you offered up the fact that the child's reaction to parenting plays a major role in this, which is sort of what I was getting at, but it also brings up the point that until now you have been solely blaming parents for any problems in the upbringing of children.


=Ok, this is my failing, now I read over my original comments, clearly I know from the start, they were made more on feeling than actual pleasure of proper debate and driven by disdain for some preconceived value age-defined enlightenment, but when I made that comment originally, it came out in far more swiping, generalized and factual sounding way, than I ever intended, it was meant to come off as example of how parents can learn to get things wrong, when actually came out sounding like I believed only way.

PS However fatalistic is bad term to use here, because fatalistic would imply that cause own failing, and I still feel too deterministic for our use, but moot point, as I actually cannot think of better one and merely talking buff here.

=now with with solely blame parents, no i didn't, there was limited points about children, however I did not go into it deeply, as my points were in rebuttal to a point about parents and so wished to flag up their negatives and felt flagging up children's negatives would be another point to made on different train of thought


I agree with you that intentions should not take precedence over results, yet to hear your opinion on parenting earlier, pretty much all the results are negative. I believe that such a thing is not so.


-Which was my intend, I was bringing up negative points about parents as wished to make a point about them.


I used the wrong terminology here. I meant to say that you accuse others of believing themselves to be solely in the right when you come across the same way.


-Just going to go ahead and say, I think your wrong and whether this is you again trying make moral point or not, the fact is, I alway use terms like I believe or in my opinion.....etc shows I am giving high regard to the fability of my own ideals in their none factual basis


How you wish to raise your children is your business. I was referring to the fact that you believe no parent should be allowed to attempt to instill their own beliefs into their children. I already admitted the fact that there is also necessity for children to experience many viewpoints, so I am unsure what sort of argument you are attempting to make here. It's not like their are only two sides to this (only parental guidance versus only child's choice), it is a balancing act and both aspects are beneficial to the overall growth of the child.


=The fact I said, raise your child how wish sort of makes all this redundant, I never stated any such thing, I said I personally would not do that and never made any testament to how others should raise their children, infact the core basis of my whole agrument has been that swiping statements on "good parenting" do not work and that this is all individual.


Anyway, I mentioned that I had thought of something interesting. I will attempt to find some information on it and post it later.
EDIT: Also, the stuff that I thought of has to deal with your point 10, Fared, so I'll answer that in a little while.

I will look at your site once my internet is working better, at moment taking to long

[MrsSallyBakura]

Fared, maybe I don't understand you, but I don't think you understand me. I think that's half the reason why we're arguing in the first place. And I apologize for getting off-topic - was not my intention, I just pissy the other day and I wanted to defend myself. I should keep that as a reminder to never go in this sub-forum when I'm not feeling so good.

I just feel like you're making circular arguments. I agree with darkarcher that you should keep your posts more concise, because they are incredibly hard to follow. You say so many things and it's hard to wrap my mind around all of the stuff you say, especially with your dyslexia. We would understand each other better if you helped play a part in that.

I do want to comment on a few things, now that I my head is mostly back on my neck:

I said this:
Why are you even bringing personal matters into the thread? They don't belong here. If you think it's such an issue then I'm a simple PM away.

What I meant was, "Why are you talking about me in a thread about parents?" That's what got us off-topic. I understand why now so we don't need to get into the logistics of that situation.

=The fact I said, raise your child how wish sort of makes all this redundant, I never stated any such thing, I said I personally would not do that and never made any testament to how others should raise their children, infact the core basis of my whole agrument has been that swiping statements on "good parenting" do not work and that this is all individual.

I got the implication that you meant that parents shouldn't 'force' their children into their religious beliefs as well, as in, ever. That it is somehow wrong for people to do that. It's like what you were saying about how people believe that they are always right. Since you believe that you are right, that others should follow that example. I suppose I'm not relativistic enough to grasp your viewpoint first-hand.

I also want to reiterate:
First of all, the older the wiser. It's not always true, but I know that I've grown up a lot since I was 14, and 10 years from now I'm going to grow up even more. I won't stop growing as a person until I die. A lot of growing up is based on experience. There are people younger than I am who know truths about life that I do not know. I am certain of this.
I personally believe age has very little to do with wisdom, normally children can give wisdom adults never could, because they are not yet burdened with cynicism and mundrene reality of everyday life.

I'm not saying that as you grow older you automatically grow wiser, but people tend to learn from their experiences. Parents, unless they lived in a box throughout their whole life, simply know the way the world works and that practical wisdom can be a source of light to children.

And I agree with you that children can be great sources of wisdom as well. Children are by no means stupid. Quite the opposite, in fact. I have younger cousins and I'm sometimes surprised by how bright they can be.

you were lucky that you agreed with them, that doesn’t mean those who don’t, are lesser than you, and once again that how you come off with these comments, like you feel your stance on this matter makes you more enlightened than those of us who couldn’t/wouldn’t agree with our parents.

I think once again you misunderstand me. I don't believe that you are lesser than me just because you don't agree with your parents, because you have every reason to believe that they are not good people. I don't believe that the 'typical teenagers' are lesser than me either, but rather they may or may not know any better. And you know what? I don't really blame them. I think they're being silly sometimes, but I don't blame them for feeling that way, because I did go through a phase where I thought my dad was so incredibly ridiculous and strict about things. I still believe that to a much lesser extent, but as an adult I have the right to lovingly disagree with him and do what I believe I need to do (as long as I'm not bound to my parents by something like money).

I don't believe that people themselves are 'lesser' than I am. Just because they know less it doesn't mean that they're inferior. Not at all.

I will admit that as a young adult I feel weird thinking about most older adults as my equals now, but that's a phase that I'll grow out of within a few years, I believe. It's just something I need to get used to.

At any rate, I still believe that the questions that I asked earlier are still interesting. I wish that you could at least attempt an answer instead of just telling me how they would get get people into the same old argument.

The first question I won't, like, demand an answer from you because I don't really see that argument going anywhere relevant (although people are welcome to answer anyways, in hopes that it won't get off-topic).

But the second question still holds water. It doesn't have to turn into a Theological discussion at all. It can be about any religion, whether the parents are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, whatever. It's not even assuming the fact that intention = action, because I agree that it doesn't mean that at all.

So here they are again, for reference:

1. If parents cause so many problems, then what is the solution?

2. Why do you think that good-intentioned parents would bring their kids to church in the first place?

By the way, Dark, good call on the link. And I agree that the authoritative parent is the most effective parenting style, from my experience, others' experiences, and from professional studies. (Except I thought that the authoritative was the uber-strict one and the authoritarian was the strict-but-kind one... doesn't matter, same ideas are being presented)

[Fat1Fared]

but I don't think you understand me

my agrument is not me trying to understand you par say, but stating that we this is an area which is too personal to show true understanding and that sweeping statments like ones made by you are inadequate and I understand you enough to do this, plus the bit I did not understand was bit I have constantly questioned

I just feel like you're making circular arguments.

=you know in offical debating, statments like this, when made without any further anylise are stricten from consideration because actually state nothing without it

"Why are you talking about me in a thread about parents?"

state again, I was on about your statment and the way you structured it, not you in general, there is difference (maybe could agrued at first didn't realise this, but now exlicitly stated, you cannot make any such claims)

implication that you meant that parents shouldn't 'force' their children into their religious beliefs as well, as in, ever. That it is somehow wrong for people to do that.

State again, I will take them churches.....etc and that exlicitly stated I would not "personally" force "any" of my (religious or otherwise) beleifs on "my" children, masssive points of inturnal use, no such regard to others

It's like what you were saying about how people believe that they are always right. Since you believe that you are right, that others should follow that example.

If you really thought this is what I wrote, I gave your intelligance too much credit, I do not feel I did though, as dispite disagreeing with 90% of what you believe, I do not think what you believe makes you stupid as your actions around what you believe, generally show your not what I would consider foolish, but you just appear here, to be trying to use a juxtaposition agurment of pedantic nature which really doesn't work at all

I think once again you misunderstand me. I don't believe that you are lesser than me just because you don't agree with your parents, because you have every reason to believe that they are not good people.

All depends on when you decide to grow up.


not much to add really, if this is not you being superifious, not sure what is

Sorry, I do not wish to comment on them, sally as already gave you what think is adquate answer to first and really do not feel like getting into second

[Fenrir502]

my agrument is not me trying to understand you, but stating that we this is an area which is too personal to show true understanding and that swiping statments like ones made by you are inadquate



=you know in offical debating, statments like this, when made without any further anylise are stricten from consideration because actually state nothing without it



state again, I was on about your statment and the way you structured it, not you in general, there is difference (maybe could agrued at first didn't realise this, but now exlicitly stated, you cannot make any such claims)



State again, I will take them churches.....etc and that exlicitly stated I would not "personally" force "any" of my (religious or otherwise) beleifs on "my" children, masssive points of inturnal use, no such regard to others



If you really thought this is what I wrote, I gave your intelligance too much credit, I do not feel I did though, as dispite disagreeing with 90% of what you believe, I do not think what you believe makes you stupid as your actions around what you believe, generally show your not what I would consider foolish, but you just appear here, to be trying to use a juxtaposition agurment of pedantic nature which really doesn't work at all





not much to add really, if this is not you being superifious, not sure what is

Sorry, I do not wish to comment on them, sally as already gave you what think is adquate answer to first and really do not feel like getting into second

I somehow get the feeling that most religions wouldn't appreciate being treated as a taste test.

I personally feel that being presented with five or so choices and being told "okay now pick whichever one you like best" sorta degrades them in a way, y'know?

Kind like "they're all wrong anyway, so it doesn't matter which one ya pick, kiddo"

[MrsSallyBakura]

I somehow get the feeling that most religions wouldn't appreciate being treated as a taste test.

I personally feel that being presented with five or so choices and being told "okay now pick whichever one you like best" sorta degrades them in a way, y'know?

Kind like "they're all wrong anyway, so it doesn't matter which one ya pick, kiddo"

I agree with this.

To answer one of my own questions, I think the reason why parents take their children to church and bring them up in one faith (maybe 2 if the parents share different faiths) is because parents want to teach their children, to the best of their abilities, what the truth is. Of course, if you don't believe in any sort of religious objective truth then that would all seem silly, and Fared, in that regard, I would understand why you would object to parents taking their children to church.

I can say through my own experience that taking me and my brothers to church was one of the absolute greatest decisions my parents made. I could say that I would still be a smart, prudent, kind, patient person (if I were to pat myself on the back... there are times where I'm not any of these things lol) without religion, but I'm not so sure I can guarantee that. If it were possible, I certainly wouldn't go back in time and take any chances.

[GcarOatmealRaisinCookies]

Parents, we all have them, we just don't know what to do with them.

[Fat1Fared]

-Gcar, I think that is smartest thing anyone has said in this thread

Fared, in that regard, I would understand why you would object to parents taking their children to church.

=Please someone give me a gun right now, I mean where, please find me anywhere, where I have said I object to poeple taking their kids to church, even a hint of it, please find it, now.
=I can "personally" find comments where I said I "would" take my kids to church to let them experience a culture and belief which is not my own. I have said, I would not try to stop other poeple can teaching their own children what to believe, just I won't try that personally, which ironically, when looked at more closely means, as I don't believe in religion, I would not teach my kids not too believe it (yes a double negative used correctly for once) and I will not object to them believing it and going to it.
=But I have never said anything to do with objecting the idea that poeple and their kids can go to church, so stop saying I did, because I will keep saying I didn't and get just more frustrated at you sally. This is exactly what I meant, in that PM, (man I'm starting to empathize with Holy right now -_- or 0_o, not sure which fits more)

PS also answering your own question is just superfluous (fact is, seems no one else, (me included) actually wishes to get into that area, (for whatever reason we pick,) and seriously, I do believe that not everything needs to go into the deeper Symmetric’s of religion (and namely your religion,) all the time, I find it gets boring and is one of the reasons I think lot of poeple gave up on this section, because it was the same debate over and over and over again, I know right now I wish to keep to boarder train of thought than that which is to do with parents in general)

I somehow get the feeling that most religions wouldn't appreciate being treated as a taste test.

I personally feel that being presented with five or so choices and being told "okay now pick whichever one you like best" sorta degrades them in a way, y'know?

Kind like "they're all wrong anyway, so it doesn't matter which one ya pick, kiddo"

I think this comment is too Repartee to be taken seriously, but still, I will try to further enlighten you on what I mean here, (just joking with you here fenrir)

=First, I am sure they will not like it, but huh, I do not appreciate much of what they do, so guess we are even there and if they really prefer, I could raise my children to hate them and everything about them, that will far less more degrading on them and while we are at it, they lose almost any chance of having another follower of their ideals. Which to me would be good thing, sadly for me, I am not like that and so won't block someone else believing/studying them, even (or maybe especially) my own children
=(though this is all on the unlikely event I have kids, as right now, this is somewhat silly conversation about a side comment I made days ago)

I am not going to give them religion or non-religion like a pick-a-mix, I am openly going to encourage them to explore, study and understand each one (or many as they humanly can) and then not force them to pick, but allow them to believe whatever they decide to believe and I will accept their choice, whether it some Christian cult or atheist ideals, why?
=Because I believe teaching your kids one culture and one belief, is limiting to them and will only give them narrow view of what is an otherwise, wonderful and beautifully deverse world.
=I do not wish to see my kids grow up to be someone who cannot accept and understand anything outside his/her own bubble/beliefs, and I diff do not wish for them to be a copy of me and my beliefs, because I have rather have a child who rejects everything I believe but can think for itself, than one which agrees with everything I believe while not having single original thought in its head. Now if ends up agreeing on its own merits, then great, if not...etc.
-yes that is extreme result, and no not meant to be taken on literal merits, but as an example

=if you disagree, teach your kids your beliefs, that is your choice and what wish to be your style of parenting (as remember I do not think is any such thing as good or bad parent because this is simply too subjective an area to generalise)

[MrsSallyBakura]

OK, look. There's obviously a huge thing of miscommunication going on here and I'll take all the blame if you so desire.

But I am attempting to combine the ideas you expressed earlier with some of the ones you have now. You said:

parsents in general mess up their kids and just have too look at 90% of poeple and then look at their parsents and see where all went wrong (at least in western world)

Ignoring the 90% (which you said wasn't a serious statistic anyways), you said that parents generally mess up their kids, whatever that means.

Then you said this:
Oh and no I do not believe parents should raise their kids to their beliefs, because I have seen too many poeple limit their views of world because of it.

I'm not saying that you're going to adamantly preach to parents and say that they shouldn't raise their kids in beliefs. This is just what you said, and I took it as objecting to the idea alone that parents should raise their kids in their beliefs, and you even stated a reason why that should not be so.

And then you say:
But I have never said anything to do with objecting the idea that poeple and their kids can go to church, so stop saying I did

This is a bad place to discuss what you mean by "objecting" so... how about we drop every single argument that we had in here? It's going nowhere.

So let's start fresh.

What do you people think it means to "mess up your kids?"

[Fat1Fared]

=I actually also said that everything is my first post is opinion which cannot really be right if there is anything which can even be considered right in this area, it just completely subjective and inadequate opinion made on annoyance to prove a point and once I started to take this subject more seriously and objectively I began to make to my actual stance more clear and level-headed (though even in my first one, I said in "general", implying not all time,)

no I do not believe parents should raise their kids to their beliefs

-Note, the lack of anything to do with churches anywhere and there is especially nothing which says it is wrong to take kids to church, (if I was "attacking" (flawed word) religion not forced belief, I would narrow it to that,)
=I will Foolishly guess your next comment, and ask that you consider the use of words I believe this is my way of showing this applies to me personally, not others, there is nothing in there to say others should follow my belief unless you imply it to be there, however if do not “imply” to be there, then there is no accountability on what others should do, just what I believe is right and most of poeple here now know that consider belief and truth as far from interchangeable.
=Still if you do imply it (and to be fair use of term parent(s) was failing on my part in order to save words, ironically) then you could misconstrue this one, however in the next post, I then went onto into make this stance clearer that, this was for me and my view of parenting, not anything wider

=I hope this clears up this stance and adds some sort of conclusion to all this.

[MrsSallyBakura]

I said drop it. Not because I "can't defend myself" or anything of the like, but because once again it has more to do with arguing about what we said rather than about parenting itself. The latter is what the thread is about, not the former. This argument has gone on for way too long.

That's why I PMed you.

[TitanAura]

I haven't bothered reading the MASSIVE amounts of text that's been said already but I'll give my two cents (actually it's a nickel) of the topic.

1. All parents suck at parenting, but some are worse than others.
2. Any couples that call themselves good parents are full of shit. The best level of parenting that can be achieved is "competent".
3. First time expectant parents who think they can do a better job will learn the joys of how to clean up feces from the walls and ceilings of their home, my parents included when my older brother was born.
4. All children are fucking insane and completely selfish.
5. All adults are incapable of remembering how much they sucked as a kid.

All people are molded by 50% nature and 50% nurture. If a person is a success or a failure, parents are always PARTIALLY responsible, however they are NEVER fully responsible. If successful, children should compensate their parents for at least the genes they provided your ungrateful ass. If murderous maniac, the kid had better have a solid medical history of mental illness to explain their initial fucked-up-ness, if not, parents fucked up. There can exist good parents but I can't say I know any personally because I know zero individuals who are perfect in which to point to their parents and say "Those guys." Being a parent is stumbling through your child's life one fuck up after another. Being a parent is more about helping a child deal with those fuck ups as well as trying as hard as possible not to be the cause for one of those fuck ups rather than trying to prevent them altogether.... otherwise they become too sheltered and therefore fucked up.

Excessively blunt and far too black and white for this level of conversation? Probably, but I just state everything as plainly and exaggerated as possible and see what discussion follows.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Well, I have to thank you for bringing this thing back on topic. It's probably a good thing that you didn't read the rest. :P

Of course I don't agree with the "all parents" parts, as there are almost always exceptions to certain rules in life, but I know you did that on purpose, so if you take the word "all" out, then you make fair points.

For point 2, I think that there's a distinction between "good" and "perfect." No parent is perfect, ever. The best-as-humanly-possible parents are the ones who know they're not perfect, however that's not necessarily what makes them the best-as-humanly-possible parents.

Number 3 is so true, lol. My aunt can attest to this fact. She once said that she used to laugh at parents with small children and had no sympathy for them... then she became a parent herself and her point of view switched significantly.

If a person is a success or a failure, parents are always PARTIALLY responsible, however they are NEVER fully responsible.

Being a parent is more about helping a child deal with those fuck ups as well as trying as hard as possible not to be the cause for one of those fuck ups rather than trying to prevent them altogether.... otherwise they become too sheltered and therefore fucked up.

Quoted these for truth. If a kid is rebellious, it's not necessarily because the parents were crappy... they were just influenced by the people in his/her school/environment/whatever.

Although I do believe that parents should prevent some things. But it depends on the severity. If they're little things then they shouldn't even bother for the most part, but if it's stuff like partying and doing hard drugs or getting pregnant/STDs, then I believe that parents need to do what they can to prevent that sort of thing, because in a way if parents are passive about that sort of thing, then they are in a way at fault for letting their kid have too much freedom.

I don't think any rule book about parenting would cover everything. It all depends on the parents, the kids, the environment, and, well, everything.

[Fat1Fared]

hold on, Titan just said what I was saying, all be more sadarodically, how come he gets agreement (sure this guy could endorse the Nazis party and still get loved on here 0_o)

this is all in jest, for those who don't know old conversation finished

[MrsSallyBakura]

hold on, Titan just said what I was saying, all be more sadarodically, how come he gets agreement (sure this guy could endorse the Nazis party and still get loved on here 0_o)

Because I'm in a better mood today... like I told you via PM, we shouldn't have had that argument in the first place. :P

Just for people's references.

[JesusRocks]

Fared: It's because Titan said it better... he was more concise and direct with his points. He said in one short post, what you've been trying to say for the past couple of pages.

Also, I like how my post has garnered quote a lot of the support in this discussion so far :V
I'd just like to say, I know full well that saying "ordinary parents" is hopelessly generalised and inadequate... I just couldn't think of any better way to put it. It's like a judge's use of the term "reasonable" >_>

[Fat1Fared]

-yer but JR those judges, then spend 10 pages explaining what they mean by reasonable

-PS anyway, I was making a joke then, I rejected most of what I said in first post as merely an extreme view prosed on frustration at "a" comment made by sally in her first post and most of the posts after that were me then trying to unreval that first post to present some actual meaning, but I must say your view there doesn't sit right me as it sort of falls into the category of hypocrisy as your fundermentally saying, crap said is in a nice way is more right than good things said in a bad way, you cannot just change your stance and agree with someone, just because like way someone said when the context of that something goes against your view, because still contradicting yourself

-I take view of Aldous Huxley

"A poor view made profoundly is still poor, a profound view made poorly, is still profound

-Basically context is more important presentation

-Yes, know its off topic, I will shut up now, just wanted to make it as point (PS still think just because Titan said, I seriously think poeple would just agree with him on almost anything lol)

[TitanAura]

-Yes, know its off topic, I will shut up now, just wanted to make it as point (PS still think just because Titan said, I seriously think poeple would just agree with him on almost anything lol)
I own these forums. They are my bitch(es?)....

[Evil Zeno]

*-__-'

[MrsSallyBakura]

Yes, know its off topic, I will shut up now, just wanted to make it as point (PS still think just because Titan said, I seriously think poeple would just agree with him on almost anything lol)

I didn't agree with everything he posted, nor the extremity in which he posted it in... lol if that makes any sense.

[greymagick711]

When growing up, I continuously thought that I would make such a better parent than my own. I suppose I would try to understand my child, be lenient, etc.

I would say that changes when the parent has either problems of his/her own, or is just worried for the child.

Can't remember how many time a conversation went like:

"Can I go to this party Friday night?"
"No!"
"Why not? Are you against having fun?"
"No."
"Then...?"
"Just no."

Can't STAND the 'because I said so' feeling of parents sometimes. But the truth is, at least in my case, I realized that they were simply worried for my safety and well-being.

Back then, I do remember NOT knowing the terrible things of the world. And the reason that my parents wouldn't explain themselves could probably be attributed to that they didn't want to mar my innocent outlook. (Those selfish bastards! Haha, but I love them.)

Sometimes, however, my parents would explain that they were concerned.

"No, you can't go because they're probably drinking. You could ruin your life as you know it."
"That's totally not going to happen. I won't do anything stupid!"

But I didn't know the future, and they've seen far more instances of ruined teenagers--so they judged for me that I couldn't go.

The only way to break out of this is to develop that thing called trust with your parents. In my experience, making 'deals' (ex: "If I get an A, can I go to this party?") does not develop trust. They need to know that you're going to be (street) smart and safe regardless.

How to do this? I recommend bringing some friends over. Er, they type that parents like. You all have to have one in your circle, and they relieve some of the concern and worries. Parents tend to make judgements from the type of friends you hang around.