Religion is there one answer? [Archive] - Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Abridged Series

Fat1Fared

03-25-2010, 07:23 PM

Ok, well basically a place for the religious spam to fall, because amazing I couldn't actually find a thread for it, so here it is a place to agrue that age old agrument, not is there god, but is there an answer to religion and if so which is it?

going to be honest, this actually made for sole purpose of giving me an excuse to ask sally this, but really may as well use it for more board use of religion as whole

Turtle was simply misunderstanding the belief. It wasn't about 'always having an answer,' it was about him assuming something about the religion that was incorrect.

-So sally, I have to ask, you say that this is not about giving an answer, but then answer something turtle said and in that lies of one my keys problems with religion, because fundamentally there is nothing to base it on, other than can faily be judged as somewhat suspect books, from time long past, it all comes down to interpretation of what is written within these books and this is why always have so many religions, because everyone should know that words have many meanings and change from person to person.

=So though I do not doubt you fairly believe what you say sally, I must ask how can you believe that turltes interpretation of the bible is less correct than your own? (there is no actual right answer to it and just because church believes something about bible does not mean they are right because they only poeple who truly knew what those words actually meant are long dead and so why does your interpretation take prescient over others?

Turtlicious

03-25-2010, 07:27 PM

AllisonWalker

03-25-2010, 07:33 PM

If i was mistaken my bad but being raised catholic i was taught fornicating was bad

then i was told Jesus died because we were born evil

and unless we are baptised even if we lived a respectful life we will inevitably go to hell

i just cant support something that punishes you for nothing not unless leather and chains are involved...And im the one with the whip

That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
Are you sure he was Catholic and not something else?

1) Sex is bad outside of marriage.
2) Jesus died for our sins, so unlike the Jews, we don't have to sacrifice animals to gain forgiveness because God brought down his own son to be the lamb for us all.
3) That solely depends on what church you go to. I personally believe all good, decent people go to heaven, regardless of their religion.

Fat1Fared

03-25-2010, 07:33 PM

MrsSallyBakura

03-25-2010, 07:38 PM

So sally, I have to ask, you say that this is not about giving an answer, but then answer something turtle said and in that lies of one my keys problems with religion, because fundamentally there is nothing to base it on, other than can faily be judged as somewhat suspect books, from time long past, it all comes down to interpretation of what is written within these books and this is why always have so many religions, because everyone should know that words have many meanings and change from person to person.

=So though I do not doubt you fairly believe what you say sally, I must ask how can you believe that turltes interpretation of the bible is less correct than your own? (there is no actual right answer to it and just because church believes something about bible does not mean they are right because they only poeple who truly knew what those words actually meant are long dead and so why does your interpretation take prescient over others?

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant.

It'd be almost like if I went up to a Muslim and said, "So why do you believe that crashing planes into buildings is OK?"

First of all, the problem with assuming that is that shows my ignorance of the Islamic religion. I know next to nothing about the religion, yet I claim that I do in asking this question.

Secondly, it's offensive. Turtle's question to me in the other thread was not nearly as offensive as the example I just gave, but the first point still holds water.

I don't think that we should assume anything about a religion we are uneducated about. Asking a question, like, "What do you believe about the salvation of unborn babies?" is more appropriate, under all circumstances and beliefs.

As for the actual topic... that solely depends on whether you believe that there is an absolute truth.

I believe that the Catholic religion is the closest thing to the truth out there. There are many reasons for this, next to none of which I'll explain in here due to the amount of time it'll take to type it all out (unless someone asks about something specifically). That doesn't mean that the Catholic Church explains every mystery of the universe, but rather what it does know is correct.

How do I know that? Explaining in here would take way too much time and effort and, honestly, I'd have to do a lot of research as well. Not really worth the time if people aren't going to take my word for it anyways.

That doesn't mean that other religions and beliefs have no truth in them, however. In another sense, all world religions have truthful aspects in them. Christians actually are supposed accept the good in other religions.

It doesn't mean that "all religions are true," however, because if you believe in any sort of absolute or objective truth, then believing that all religions are true would be contradictory. How can you believe that there is only one God and that there are many gods simultaneously? It doesn't work like that.

In short: All religions have at least a bit of truth in it. But not all of them are 100% true.

Turtlicious

03-25-2010, 07:40 PM

turtle this is not about the facts of yours and sally's debate itself, I couldn't care less what catholic's think the bibles view on rape is, because I couldn't care less about what the bibles view on rape is, personally I think rape is bad for far more personal reasons than that a book told me so,

what I am more interested in, is why do poeple believe their view or interpretation of those words are the right ones, whatever part of bible looking at, I mean the bible is so loosely written, I was able to change the passage used against homosexuality and with constrained, but acceptable construction of wording make it say that homosexuality is in fact good, and that is the point, because their surely cannot be a right/wrong answer, what gives people their convictions in answers they accept

Actually i believe you are absolutely right is because of that very reason...

That being able to be interpreted in so many ways makes each person here exactly what they want to hear and get the message they want out of it the arguements over how its worded will never be solved unless we could talk to the writer and Have him expound

Also I'm curious how much of the bible was lost in translation how much of its ambiguity stems from being written in another language

@allison: i condensed my teachings alot

Grandma said sex before marriage of ANY kind (sadly this included rape) was a sin and that when you were born you had original sin and must be baptised or you spend the rest of your life in purgatory with some saint that i cant name right now

also rape is bad in my opinion because its RAPE as in psychological physiological torture

MrsSallyBakura

03-25-2010, 07:41 PM

That doesn't sound Catholic at all.
Are you sure he was Catholic and not something else?

1) Sex is bad outside of marriage.
2) Jesus died for our sins, so unlike the Jews, we don't have to sacrifice animals to gain forgiveness because God brought down his own son to be the lamb for us all.
3) That solely depends on what church you go to. I personally believe all good, decent people go to heaven, regardless of their religion.

I'm going to have to agree with this.

The Church doesn't say that "only Christians go to Heaven." I believe that all people who strive to learn and accept the truth will eventually make it to Heaven.

MrsSallyBakura

03-25-2010, 07:46 PM

That being able to be interpreted in so many ways makes each person here exactly what they want to hear and get the message they want out of it the arguements over how its worded will never be solved unless we could talk to the writer and Have him expound

Which is why Catholics believe in the Church's interpretation of the Bible rather than personal interpretation. It's true that the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways and that's why Catholics don't believe that you can just read the Bible and believe what you want about it.

Also I'm curious how much of the bible was lost in translation how much of its ambiguity stems from being written in another language

This is why even to this day people are retranslating the Bible to the best of their abilities. The original Hebrew and Greek text still exists.

Grandma said sex before marriage of ANY kind (sadly this included rape) was a sin and that when you were born you had original sin and must be baptised or you spend the rest of your life in purgatory with some saint that i cant name right now

Well, first of all, the rapist would be sinning, but the victim wouldn't be. You also have to understand that the cultural understanding of rape has changed since the feminist movement. So your grandma may still believe that if a woman was raped, then it was her fault (assuming that your grandma is still alive).

Secondly, yes we do believe that we are born with original sin and that we should be baptized.

The Church doesn't actually say that about purgatory... first of all purgatory is a purification process that cleanses you before you enter Heaven, so if you're in purgatory, you'll eventually be in Heaven. And there's no saint involved...

I suggest you do a little research. I've never met an ex-Catholic who completely understood what the Church taught.

also rape is bad in my opinion because its RAPE as in psychological physiological torture

Which is exactly why it's a sin.

EDIT: One more thing...
Catholicism (and probably some Protestant sects) believe that we are actually born good but are tainted with sin. That is not the same as being born evil.

Fat1Fared

03-25-2010, 08:06 PM

Allison did you seriously just ask someone if they know what religion they were brought up in, you seriously are one of a kind girl lol

Sally so that is fancy way of saying you don't understand my religion enough to ask this (despite fact, both me and turtle were raised in part of it and my question is not asking what is right, but why believe that something is right, major difference there sally) and I believe because believe, but anyway, I do have to ask about this interesting line

That doesn't mean that other religions and beliefs have no truth in them, however. In another sense, all world religions have truthful aspects in them. Christians actually are supposed accept the good in other religions.

This is the problem you are taking it for granted that some objective truth, when this all subjective interpretation, I mean:

1=what are these truths?
2=Who decides this?
3=how do we test it?
4=What the heck is this good you speak of?
5=If all this acceptance then how come this massive snobbery within all religions towards each others teachings on the differenations in truth

Which is why Catholics believe in the Church's interpretation of the Bible rather than personal interpretation. It's true that the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways and that's why Catholics don't believe that you can just read the Bible and believe what you want about it.

=This is not true, even within the catholic church cannot decide what is right

Turtle, that was basically what getting at and yes I agree, it would be interesting to see how much was accidentally and willifully changed

PS Sally please keep on topic, take the rape talk to the rape thread

AllisonWalker

03-25-2010, 08:08 PM

Allison did you seriously just ask someone if they know what religion they were brought up in, you seriously are one of a kind girl lol

Yes, Fared. I actually went to Catholic School and service for a few years and paid attention in class. The Catholic Church never taught any of those things Turtle's father was apparently led to believe.

There are other sects that do, however.

MrsSallyBakura

03-25-2010, 08:16 PM

lol I was just answering Turt's question. I wasn't planning on carrying the conversation further than that. That thread isn't even the rape thread, it's the incest, pedophilia, and bestiality thread.

Sally so that is fancy way of saying you don't understand my religion enough to ask this (despite fact, both me and turtle were raised in part of it and my question is not asking what is right, but why believe that something is right, major difference there sally) and I believe because believe, but anyway, I do have to ask about this interesting line

It's not a fancy way of saying, "I believe just because." Do you honestly want me to write a novel about why I believe, only for you to read it and afterwards say that it's a load of crap? I'd rather not go through the trouble. I'm being honest here.

I have a loooooooooooooooooooooooooot of reasons why I believe. Only mentioning a few wouldn't scratch the surface. I'd first have to talk about why I believe in God, and then why I believe in Jesus, and why I believe in the Bible, and why I believe in the Church, and why I believe that God still acts in our lives today, etc. It's not simple. That's all I'm saying.

This is not true, even within the catholic church cannot decide what is right

Elaborate.

This is the problem you are taking it for granted that some objective truth, when this all subjective interpretation, I mean:

1=what are these truths?
2=Who decides this?
3=how do we test it?
4=What the heck is this good you speak of?
5=If all this acceptance then how come this massive snobbery within all religions towards each others teachings on the differenations in truth

Honestly, for the first 4 questions I'd have to say God/the stuff that God taught us through oral tradition and scripture. But since you don't believe that God exists then that would be an unsatisfactory answer. But answering it any other way would either be impossible for extremely complicated.

For 5, it's because all religions teach different truths. Many of them have a few of the same truths, but none of them believe in the exact same things, otherwise they would all be the same religion.

The reason why people fight over religion is because some are believed to be closer to the truth than others.

Ohara

03-26-2010, 01:02 AM

I don't think convincing other people of why what they believe is wrong or not is the right way to go about this kind of thing - you may as well bash your head against the other's for all the progress you'll make. Each party has their own reasons for believing what they do - whether the other sees them as plausible or stupid remains to be seen, but I don't believe that there's 'one answer'. If there was, multiple contradicting religions wouldn't exist as they do now. It all comes down to faith and being able to believe in what can't be seen or proven, I guess...

I've been brought up around Christian teachings for pretty much my entire life, but, though I went along with it, I've always seen it as more of a fairytale than anything else. Subconsciously, I think I've known all along that I never actually believed in it (or at least until I was old enough to actually realize it). For the last few years, at least, I've been heavy on Atheism.

On the whole, though, I hate Religion in general for what it is. It's been responsible for however many deaths, hatred, discrimination... it frustrates me to see so many people pouring their lives into something that I despise on principle.
I mean, I don't have anything against Christians (or followers of other Religions), or the fact that they believe - I just don't want anything to do with any of it.

Fat1Fared

03-26-2010, 04:49 AM

It's not a fancy way of saying, "I believe just because." Do you honestly want me to write a novel about why I believe, only for you to read it and afterwards say that it's a load of crap? I'd rather not go through the trouble. I'm being honest here.

Fair enough, not going to lie that probably would be my answer, but this thread is not about convincing anyone of anything, it is about trying to understand why poeple came to conclusions they did and talking that over even if challenged. I have done it millions of times and I like it, as allows me to see things from new view and several times people questioning me, even on this site has allowed me to grow as a person and expand my understanding of world, but even if that doesn't have, this question without an answer is just one to talk about why you believe, even if no actual beleif what so ever (which kind of the point of the question in self conducting way)
=I actual think it says an interesting point about someone whether they like to be challenged in their beliefs or like to convince others of their beliefs, (and before poeple say anything, I am not saying ether better than other, so any point taken their, is one taken by yourself)

(I plan when get on easter holiday to do such a thing and I know I will get eaten alive for it, but then again what is point of being sentient if don't allow yourself to be questioned, which is the one reason I cannot god, he leaves no room, but that is something which do another time)

Elaborate.

What is to elaborate sally are you saying the Catholic church doesn't agrue among itself over what it believes?
=I mean if you are you must see different church to me, because a church which has changed its view over so many of its beliefs over the years and has so many dissenting judgments within its own ranks, is not something which has true uniformaity in its beleifs, only further adding to my point (look at homosexaulity one)

Honestly, for the first 4 questions I'd have to say God/the stuff that God taught us through oral tradition and scripture. But since you don't believe that God exists then that would be an unsatisfactory answer. But answering it any other way would either be impossible for extremely complicated.

I am so glad you are thinking for my small brain, you are right, if you explained these complex religious views to me, my small minded arthist brain could blow up.
=And if you are saying you couldn't explain it, that is scary, how you believe something like this, if do not actually understand why you believe it (before anyone says can believe thngs without understanding them, I know you can, but you should at least understand why you believe the thing without understanding the thing itself

For 5, it's because all religions teach different truths. Many of them have a few of the same truths, but none of them believe in the exact same things, otherwise they would all be the same religion.

That doesn't really deal with the question unless you are implying that the good in other religions is the bits which agree with your own, in which case, well not sure what to say to that, other than the fact it sort proves a lot of the reasoning as to why I distrust religion and think no point going further down this track as only derail the thread

The reason why people fight over religion is because some are believed to be closer to the truth than others.

Well everyone knows that, but why? (the why is not always in the how or the what, the why is sometimes within itself.)

=I know results of your beliefs I want to know why you have those beleifs and raise them above others (and before say don't, you d as believe closer to this "truth" than anyone else, why are you close?")

Ohara I was sort of like that, at one point I sort of got into it, but never felt anything from it, no connection.....etc and always felt the stories where well not quite right, then I got little older and really began to question it, and as I did, well I began to like what I saw less and less, and somewhat overally simple message I was given as child became way to romate from what I saw and by the end of it, I came to believe there was no "ultimate truth" and that if their was some "god" he was not what we made of him and I went through stage of hating religion with all my being, that has sense calmed to mild disdain (note term religion not religious poeple, as though judge the thing itself as whole, unfair to judge all those within it as whole) and a hard rejection of their beliefs (apart from what I agree with, but things like won't kill, are not there because of religions but because simple something I wouldn't disgree with)

MrsSallyBakura

03-26-2010, 11:36 AM

Just a couple of things since I don't have much of a response for everything you posted.

What is to elaborate sally are you saying the Catholic church doesn't agrue among itself over what it believes?
=I mean if you are you must see different church to me, because a church which has changed its view over so many of its beliefs over the years and has so many dissenting judgments within its own ranks, is not something which has true uniformaity in its beleifs, only further adding to my point (look at homosexaulity one)

What I meant by 'elaborate' was explaining specific things that the Church has 'argued over.' It's true that more minor details have changed, and that major dogmas have been understood differently, but the major core beliefs (dogmas and doctrine) haven't changed. Disciplines have changed and can change, yes.

The councils that church leaders go to are to help gain a better understanding of church teaching in the midst of the current events.

That doesn't really deal with the question unless you are implying that the good in other religions is the bits which agree with your own, in which case, well not sure what to say to that, other than the fact it sort proves a lot of the reasoning as to why I distrust religion and think no point going further down this track as only derail the thread

Hmm, I apologize for coming across this way. In a way I agree with you, because life isn't about what I believe in. It's a fine line between declaring something as truth because it's actually truth and declaring something as truth because I believe in it. I can only hope that I'm doing the former... but chances are I'm doing at least a little bit of the latter. Then again, I'm pretty sure everyone does that. >>

this thread is not about convincing anyone of anything, it is about trying to understand why poeple came to conclusions they did and talking that over even if challenged.

I do see what you mean here, too.
But even if I did write something here, whether or not it'd be way too long for this thread, I'd have to sit down and think about it for a while, and not just type it up on a forum. Maybe I'll cook up something in a while.

gwtyler1985

03-26-2010, 01:55 PM

as i am unfamiliar with other religions, i cannot comment on them nor can i really say anything that has not been said, nor comment on it effectively at this time. all i can do is state why i believe what i believe and why my beliefs disagree with some others.

after study of the christian bible and after studying my life, i classify myself as christian because of my beliefs, and as protestant but under no recorded sect. i believe what i believe because it makes sense to me in it's wording and it's application to the real world. the rules i follow for my religion have natural, proven consequences (positive and negative) that take effect every time and following these rules has kept me healthy and prosperous. i do not judge people who disagree with me, nor do i shut them out when they tell me their beliefs.

i know that this has not been as elaborate as sally and fared's comments, but i hope that i at least have contributed in the slightest and answered at least one question. if i there are questions or if there is a future comment that i can become involved with, i will comment on this thread again.

MrsSallyBakura

03-26-2010, 03:02 PM

i believe what i believe because it makes sense to me

You know, I think that should classify anyone who believes in anything.

If someone believed in something even though it didn't make any sense, I'd be a little worried.

Turtlicious

03-26-2010, 03:38 PM

not really contributing but i believe it needs to be said

I cant believe in the idea of god because that means people do things out of fear of divine intervention then the fact that its wrong

gwtyler1985

03-26-2010, 03:38 PM

You know, I think that should classify anyone who believes in anything.

If someone believed in something even though it didn't make any sense, I'd be a little worried.

well, when i said that it makes sense, i meant that it makes sense in it's application in the rest of the world. my religious principles have been experimented with and tested time and time again for the last few thousand years and every time they come back with similar results. so when i say it makes sense, i mean that it makes sense from a scientific point of view, as if they are programmed into the fabric of day to day life as boolean (true/false/if) variables.

LiftedShadows

03-26-2010, 05:07 PM

Well, figured I'd jump in, since I seem to be tackling these serious topic threads one by one.

I myself am a Christian. Not any particular sect or group or whatnot, as I have failed to find one that believes with each of my particular beliefs (nor do I think it particularly matters...as long as you agree on the obvious main point, you're a Christian). I grew up with Christian parents, doing the whole church thing, so I didn't really decide to be my religion until I was probably in middle school, about seven years ago.

I chose to be a Christian because, after looking through the Bible, sitting through countless services and classes, and noting the "keystone" beliefs of Christianity, I found myself in agreement with the main points of Christianity.

To be honest, I'm sort of running into this blind, as I am not certain exactly what you are wanting from me. >>; An explanation of each of my beliefs and why I believe that would, obviously, take weeks...months, if I could ever finish at all. If you ask about a specific belief, I may be able to explain better. ^^;

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an idiot. I'm just a bit confused.

Turtlicious

03-26-2010, 05:48 PM

if anything religious becomes argued take it here so it doesnt spam the other threads

Ohara

03-26-2010, 06:13 PM

(apart from what I agree with, but things like won't kill, are not there because of religions but because simple something I wouldn't disgree with)
Exactly.
I agree with a number of the moral views in the Bible - not having sex before marriage, for example, and most of the commandments. That said, my agreement on these things isn't because of or influenced by the Bible at all - it all depends on what I see as the morally correct way to go about doing things.

Rather than explaining all of why I don't believe, for the sake of my laziness, this site (http://www.godisimaginary.com/) covers most of it.

grimfang999

03-30-2010, 05:00 PM

right then, i skipped alot of what is here to get to my view.

My athiestical side says religion is false, and it was merely formed to restore order and a back up system for that tribe or civilisation in case that fails.

my logical sides argues against, pointing out the Native Americans used a shaming system and never had to resort to religious threats, yet still believed. It is quite possable, that it is an illusion or personification of things we do not know.

My spiritual side says all people are guided along thier own path, and perhaps their faith is something that will help them fulfill their lifes duties. This may explain why some people feel oblidged to do things in the name of their faith

My logical and spiritual combined considers that religions is a channel of faith into the spiritual realm to provide a sort of energy to Gods and spirits. Therefore they Implant the idea of faith into our heads in nature and nudge us towards creating wide-spread faiths

My historical side says religion was not always shown by peace, history has shown that the ancient polythiestic civilisations like Greece went to war in the name of their Gods more enthusiastically than the Christians on the Crusades, and even said it was a game between the Gods. This could show that perhaps its not being a good person but following yor duty.

From this my Philosophical side says from this may assume the duties of the religious man has changed, whether its the gods are still playing a game but this time a peace struggle, or the ancient war gods have been taken control of by a much more powerful diety, but who prefers peace to war, so his servents generally are meant to be more peace loving.

Maybe all faiths are correct, and there is no one true God, but many ones with different ideologies.

At there currant time, there is no answer. As far as we know the Sumerians religion was correct and our beliefs have evolved off the origional track

greymagick711

03-31-2010, 08:01 PM

So, yeah...I had my grade and high school years in a Catholic School. Grade school was horribly biased, but generally taught what they called "natural laws" or morals.

On the other hand, my Catholic high school was actually pretty open minded (in other words, non-canon) when it came to religion.
Basically, they explained that the time monotheism was developed, people had gone though plenty of other religions, each culture developing their origin story as to how the world and people were formed.

They were myths attempting to explain phenomena. Laws were developed to protect people. (I.E. The one about not eating pork is said to come around because pigs were dirty, disease ridden animals as one time.) These were just passed down by oral tradition, until they were written down.
Of course, the authors always put their own little twists into what they write, so no one can really say which myths of the Old Testament actually occurred or which were made up on the spot.
Furthermore, some stories were explanations just why things happen (for example, Job). Others were very biased and inaccurate histories taken from the author's standpoints.

Well, over the years and struggles, all these things turned from being a tradition into a eventual, mature religion.
Likewise, with all the other religions out there, from Paganism to Hindu to Christianity, generally all have their sets of morals, codes, and explanations of the world.

From my western mythology class, the origin of thinking that some sort of deity came to be when man obtained the ability to question surroundings--to think scientifically. Archeologists found old, small rock mark representing what they think was the first notion of a deity: rays coming from the sun.
Then when tribes were first developing and civilization first emerging, the concept of a single female deity came about. After that, this diverged into polytheism. For a greater part of ancient history, the concept of multiple gods reigned. However, coming into the last 5000 yrs of BC or so, the re-emergence of a single, male, god developed.

Characteristics of older religions can be seen though these ancient ages, some concepts carried over as one society dimmed in power.

So, yeah...not sure what to say about religion other than it just seems to be ancient man's attempt at explaining the world. Which is perfectly understandable, since they didn't have the technology we have today, nor was 'discovering the unknown' on their priorities when in reality they were concerned by being raided from a nearby tribe.

I'm pretty much believe in any religion as much as I believe that aliens were the actual gods of the Aztecs. (That mean, yeah, there's a possibility, but it too far-fetched/not solid enough proof/don't make me laugh.) There so much to be explained that can't be explained as of now--but we humans are getting close. I'm very excited of this concept.

But the Catholic God I was raised under seems pretty legit in keeping things cool. My interpretation: He may want us to continue to guess at what He's thinking/conjuring up because A) it's funny or B) we have to grow in our knowledge.
But you know what? And until I find proof that some sort of deity does NOT exist...I'll just play a Pascal's Wager.

BUT! Because of the morals I was brought up upon, I can't help but say I do have something against violence acted out in any God's name. Again, this isn't just the Christian god here--it's any religion's.
In the case of saving the majority of lives in condemning a few--well, that's pretty much the Passion, isn't it? I STILL don't think that's right. For the meantime, it's probably the best anyone can do, or in the Scripture's sense, the best solution they could come up with at the time. Humans, I'm sure, can solve problems in a much better. Here's to a brighter future.

Gee, greymagick711, so if you were raised Catholic, why the doubt and becoming agnostic?

:P Too many discrepancies in the Bible, too many traditions that don't apply (or have no reason to exist) today, too many testimonies with serious contradictions, and too many other religions that could be right instead. Also, why push off the explanations to mysticism? Life's more interesting when hunting for answers. My namesake is basically stating that magic is still a grey area.

The only reason I could see me taking back up Catholicism or any religion is in the fact that religion is an origin-of-human tradition. Religion is a strange phenomena, indeed. Perhaps one proof that a deity exists is that humans seemed always to have had the concept that some sort of divine form actually exists.

Turtlicious

04-01-2010, 05:33 PM

this is a very educated answer

you will do well here

ValkyrieJuno

04-17-2010, 10:42 PM

after study of the christian bible and after studying my life, i classify myself as christian because of my beliefs, and as protestant but under no recorded sect. i believe what i believe because it makes sense to me in it's wording and it's application to the real world. the rules i follow for my religion have natural, proven consequences (positive and negative) that take effect every time and following these rules has kept me healthy and prosperous. i do not judge people who disagree with me, nor do i shut them out when they tell me their beliefs.

I can say the same for me as well. My faith saved my life literally when I doubted it most and it making me become a healthy responsible young woman. Unfortunately I'm the only real Christian in my circle of friends. With them being atheists, it's hard on me because their beliefs affect how they act and I sometimes find it to be offensive. There's nothing wrong with them being atheists, but they certainly don't respect themselves(because of that), believing it's okay to call themselves "bitches" and "hoes". I'm not saying all atheists are like that, and not saying anybody posting on this thread is, but in my experience people respect themselves better when they have some sort of religion.

I generally don't judge people if they've got a different religion. It's fine if you don't agree with me on this, I still believe that Christianity is the true religion, and to some extent on Judaism and Islam, because all three originate from one man in history, which would be Abraham. I'm not saying it's wrong for those who believe in what ever other religion they believe, I just don't think that any of them are the one true religion. And some people say that there's truth in each religion or that no religion is the real answer, which makes me want to say: Then what the hell is the point of religion?! Hell why are we even fighting wars over it?

grimfang999

04-18-2010, 07:56 AM

Then what the hell is the point of religion?!
some say It has been an illusion man has had from the dawn of time just from things that they cannot explain, and others sometimes say it is a form of control.

Some faiths could have been born out of desire for control, but then again, it may not. My belief is part Christian, part Spiritualist, part Fatalist, and I enjoy to consider theological reasons. It is likely that, if all religions are correct, then all of them are a chanel (as in focus, not television) of faith "energy" into the spirit realm to permit spirits to maybe re-enter or visit the physcial one we live in/grant certain people "miracles" (which i dont mean something unexplainable, i mean an act of extremely good fortune at a necessary time), or to the God or a specific God, for there could be every God of faith there.

The reason why there is that belief that no religion is right, then it means everyone who is not that faith will not go to heaven. If that person was a good person, then they do not deserve to suffer or forcefully continue the cycle of life. In addition its likely all religions have branched of the earliest faiths, so none of the modern ones are correct and the ancient ones are.

Overall, from a realistic point of view, religion is either a form of control behind government law which is losing its grasp in the western world, and also a basis to set morals down so society can function decently. From a spiritual view, a chanel of faith to a God, Gods or spirits, and to shape those people to how their God(s) want them to be.

Of course, this is from someone who is neutral, and simply believes in balance, duty, acts of kindness, and of course, the two realms and the faith in the ones beyond.

Hell why are we even fighting wars over it?

The Crusades were not actually religious at first but political, it was to help the collapsing Byzantine empire get its lands back. Over time it did become a bit of a God war, but then its like a God tried to commit suicide when the forth crusade lead the western states to destroy the Byzantines capital Constantinople.

There has not actually been many wars started in the name of God, but many smaller fights have, or have reached a point to where it has become one in the name of God.

Yet again, some wars were started in the ancient era, but they were not in the names of Gods, but rather for their Gods entertainment, like it was for the Greeks if you ever read the Illiad or Odessy or another of Homers books

killshot

04-18-2010, 09:47 AM

I'm not saying all atheists are like that, and not saying anybody posting on this thread is, but in my experience people respect themselves better when they have some sort of religion.

I came to an opposite conclusion in my experience with Christianity. Back in the days when I still went to church, something that I noticed was that Christians didn't believe that they could do anything without God's help. I often heard phrases like, "I could not take even a single step if it weren't for the power of God." The preacher often reminded everyone that we are all worthless sinners who would be nothing without God. This sort of self-depreciation doesn't sound like something that would raise anyone's self esteem.

grimfang999

04-18-2010, 10:05 AM

AbridgedHidan

04-18-2010, 11:13 AM

My English Teacher always thought that religion is more of a personal business. It's what you believe in and others can't change that. It's just that these biblethumpers make such a big deal out of it.

Underling

04-18-2010, 01:48 PM

Perhaps one proof that a deity exists is that humans seemed always to have had the concept that some sort of divine form actually exists.

So far, at least. At one point in time it would have been true to say every culture had had some concept of witchcraft, but that died out.

The difference with religion is that we have somehow allotted it an authority it has no business having, allowing it to inculcate society with the idea that there's a realm of knowledge that reason and human endeavours such as science are unable to comment upon.

Certainly there is such a thing as "the spiritual", but relegating it to religion was one of the worst things we've ever done.

ValkyrieJuno

04-27-2010, 07:38 PM

MrsSallyBakura

04-28-2010, 11:47 AM

I came to an opposite conclusion in my experience with Christianity. Back in the days when I still went to church, something that I noticed was that Christians didn't believe that they could do anything without God's help. I often heard phrases like, "I could not take even a single step if it weren't for the power of God." The preacher often reminded everyone that we are all worthless sinners who would be nothing without God. This sort of self-depreciation doesn't sound like something that would raise anyone's self esteem.

I'm going to have to agree with Juno and say that they probably didn't mean it in a way that demeans humanity.

In the technical sense, if God exists, then yes we WOULD be nothing without God, because if God created the universe and only God could do such a thing, then we would not exist in the first place. But it doesn't mean that we should condemn ourselves every time we do something wrong. It doesn't mean that science is bunk. It doesn't mean that we have zero power as people.

I would extend on that lamp/outlet analogy and say that we are like a laptop computer and God is an outlet. When we're unplugged, we can run on our own energy for a little while, but it doesn't last. We can then choose to either be plugged in until we are charged all the way, or stay plugged in for longer. Or we can just die out.

May not be the best analogy, but I think in this context alone it works.

I think your preacher was trying to teach humility. But being humble doesn't mean that we should consider ourselves to be worthless pieces of garbage, it simply means that we recognize that, "I am not the most important person in the world." We put that importance on God. Some people who don't believe in God may put that importance on something else (like money, fame, science, or another person).

Juno said that she started feeling more respect for herself when she started taking Christianity seriously. I think that when people say that, they mean that they know that God is on their side, and that there isn't any reason to feel guilty for anything we've potentially done wrong for longer than a second. We also recognize that making habits out of things like gossiping can actually hurt us more than help us. When people don't trust in God, either, there are those who take their sorrows to things like alcohol and drugs, and become addicted to those so that they can escape the pain they're going through.

Recognizing that God has power isn't saying that humans are worthless scum. We believe, as Christians, that God made humans in His own image and likeness. If we believe those 2 things, then we can know that humans are important and that God gave humans power to make a difference in the world. Knowing that God has power doesn't mean humans should despair about being powerless all the time. It doesn't mean that we should whip ourselves whenever we do something wrong. It means that we know who we can run to when we feel like crap, and that we can even run to Him if we feel pretty good.

...that probably feels like a huge ramble. So I hope it at least makes some sense. O_x

grimfang999

04-28-2010, 12:00 PM

its makes sense, alot of the things I come up with sound like ramble after I reach a certain length. Just happens.

Personally I say on the case of God when looking at it in the most simple light is that you cannot prove if God does exist, equally to that which he doesnt. Whichever way you believe the universe was created, something must have created that, and at that point it could be God, Gods, or something else.

What i'm simply getting at is if this is the case, faith might as well exist on that simple basis. If you are wrong, well then you have both had a reason to be good to mankind (not in the way as in athiests dont do good, but it does help in morals) and made a just in case for the other scenario. If it is correct, then good.

In short, its up to the person to worship, but I would rather support a diety, not just for that selfish reason, but there is some logic to what I say, and it does despair me to see people scared to admit their faith.

Now I think I am rambling on a bit :P

musigal

04-28-2010, 03:04 PM

What a lot of people are representing here is not actual Christianity, but the culture of christianity or they missed how some things were meant.

As humans we ARE totally depraved and useless without God in our fallen state of sin. But when we accept Jesus as a substitute for the punishment our sin rightfully deserves, we are freed from the hold that has over us, and we are able to become something pleasing and beautiful.
I'm not saying that people aren't valuable even when fallen (Jesus died for sinners, think how much worth he puts on them). But I am saying that we are flawed, messed up. We all think things and do things that are desperately wicked.
But, God can take that messed up life and break it down like a potter with a messed up piece of clay on his wheel, and make us into something beautiful and pure and useful.
God loves us all and wants us all to be beautiful and accepted. But we have to make the choice to follow him no matter what he asks us to change, or how hard it gets. He will give us the strength to carry on. He did everything to win us back and we just have to say yes. It's like a proposal. Every woman has the right to say no to a man who loves her madly and would do anything to win her. Does that diminish the love of the one proposing? no. It just shows how selfish and hard-hearted the woman is.

The bottom line is this: there is one God. He is good. He loves us. We chose to hate him. He paid the price to win us back. We can accept or decline. When we accept, he makes us into something beautiful and precious. When we decline, we refuse to let him fix our brokenness.

Only those who accept can spend eternity with him. Seriously, how messed-up would it be if the man who proposed to the woman and loves her purely let her live in his house rent-free and bring in other men to sleep with all the time? Wouldn't anyone say that relationship is unhealthy? When we choose ourselves over God, we are essentially cheating on him with our own desires. The whole book of Hosea (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%201-14&version=NIV) is about this analogy. Although it talks about Israel specifically, God's feeling for all people is the same, as is made clear in both the old and new testaments.

grimfang999

04-28-2010, 03:13 PM

the only thing I want to challenge in your post musigal is this:

The bottom line is this: there is one God.

If we go back to the title, is there one answer to religion, looking at how there were many Gods before one God, it seems more likely to me that the true religion would be polytheistic, either that or as time passed on many Gods stepped down and lost their position and became the angels we know today while the father of the Gods became the God we know today.

Overall, sometimes however the idea of original sin does make sense. I do think so things are related to the worlds holy books, which in many cases have exactly the same teachings just in different forms. If these are from God or from Gods, then we should follow the teachings. If not, still follow them for the sake of order in humanity

Kanap

04-28-2010, 03:18 PM

grimfang999

04-28-2010, 03:26 PM

I'm unsure on the topic of gods or one god but I know i have gone over some of the major religions in school and they all seem to have the same, be nice to people attitude. A question one friend of mine used to ask a youth minister he know was "How do we have free will if god knows what we are going to do before we do it?"

indeed. How I prefer to percieve it is that we do not have free will; I am a fatalist. My belief is that there are three forces which control the universe: God, fate, and time. Time ensures everything progresses, Fate plans everything important to happen, and God ensures that it happens by catering to the peoples needs and preparing them for the next event. Its fairly complicated, but its possable. It might be an answer to the question, but philosophy, especially theological philosophy, is very opinionated and unprovable. Just settle for what is right in your heart

Though I didnt really answer the free will part very well. I believe we either have an illusion of free will, which then makes no difference since we still believe we are choosing ourselves, not just being completely mindless puppets, or we have free will unless its a necessary event, and ive had that happen to me a couple of times.

Underling

04-28-2010, 07:18 PM

TitanAura

04-28-2010, 07:56 PM

Reading this made me physically nauseous. Thank fuck you people are a dying breed.
That's a little harsh towards someone who's probably speaking from the bottom of their heart, though I'll admit it sounded pretentious by not given the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, we all might be wrong about what we believe in. Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't but I still think following simple morals like, idk, Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King jr, Mother Teresa, etc did and simply accept everyone regardless of their faults and beliefs then we'd all be able to stfu and make the world a better place for everyone. But fuck that, otherwise the terrorists, commies, and satan win.

Anreyla

04-28-2010, 08:15 PM

Reading this made me physically nauseous. Thank fuck you people are a dying breed.

Like TitanAura said, that's a bit harsh. I don't buy into any of it either, if anything, one of the reasons I'm an atheist is people who try to force their beliefs on others and talk about how you're a horrible person if you don't believe what they say. I don't like it either, but saying that might be going a bit far, especially if the person truly believes it to be true, and if anything, it only makes you look bad. Simply stating you don't agree with them is probably a better, and more respectable, way of going about it, but what do I know, I'm too pacifistic for my own good.

I don't have much else to contribute to this, since I'm not a religious person.

Kanap

04-28-2010, 09:19 PM

Reading this made me physically nauseous. Thank fuck you people are a dying breed.

^this

AllisonWalker

04-28-2010, 09:43 PM

Intolerance at its best.

Kanap

04-28-2010, 09:46 PM

Telling people they should and need to believe in the one god is rather preachy and honestly makes me angry.

MrsSallyBakura

04-28-2010, 10:03 PM

^ muse didn't tell you that you had to believe. She was stating what she believed in.

i have gone over some of the major religions in school and they all seem to have the same, be nice to people attitude.

Not... really...

I mean yeah, love your neighbor and all that, but it's not what Christianity is about. Because in the end, anyone in the world can be nice to anyone. It's not that difficult. You don't need a religion to tell you that.

A brief overview of a religion isn't necessarily going to tell you the most important aspects of it. I would suggest reading a little more deeply into the Christian faith. Even if you choose not to believe in it, at least you'll know a little more about it.

A lot of the reason why people don't believe in Christianity is because they actually don't know that much about it. Even if they went to church as a kid, that doesn't mean that they know the religion.

A question one friend of mine used to ask a youth minister he know was "How do we have free will if god knows what we are going to do before we do it?"

There have been topics about this in this forum before.

My answer?

Say that you were given a DVD from the future of the Superbowl 2011. You watch it. You know the outcome. But does knowing the outcome mean that you control the outcome?
Of course not.

The Christian God lives outside time and space. He knows everything, but he doesn't control it.

Turtlicious

04-28-2010, 10:24 PM

but who made the dvd?

MrsSallyBakura

04-28-2010, 10:28 PM

but who made the dvd?

Well, whoever made the DVD didn't control the situation either. They only recorded it.

Who made the decision to win? The football players. And even in that case, the outcome wasn't necessarily 100% in their control. Both sides wanted to win, but only one could.

Turtlicious

04-28-2010, 10:36 PM

Well, whoever made the DVD didn't control the situation either. They only recorded it.

Who made the decision to win? The football players. And even in that case, the outcome wasn't necessarily 100% in their control. Both sides wanted to win, but only one could.

Ok but how was future moment taken to the past?

the football players might have been following some predetermined destiny

MrsSallyBakura

04-28-2010, 10:39 PM

Ok but how was future moment taken to the past?

the football players might have been following some predetermined destiny

But the football players don't know. Only you do.

But this is getting off-topic.

Turtlicious

04-28-2010, 11:13 PM

true...does religion mention aliens?

MrsSallyBakura

04-28-2010, 11:17 PM

Depends on the religion, probably.

But I don't think that Christianity has a firm stance about aliens or anything extraterrestrial. I think we should let science handle that one.

grimfang999

04-29-2010, 07:29 AM

like I said, if God knows the future, then fate must also control alongside

Kanap

04-29-2010, 10:24 AM

I have read many passages of the Bible and still don't agree with the concept of Christianity. Only in Christianity can you read the first half of a book adn the second half basicaly says oh forget that now things are different.

I do not want to come off as an intolerant asshole, I just don't see the wonderfulness of praising God for all eternity after I die.

MrsSallyBakura

04-29-2010, 11:16 AM

I have read many passages of the Bible and still don't agree with the concept of Christianity. Only in Christianity can you read the first half of a book adn the second half basicaly says oh forget that now things are different.

Well, you have to understand that it's not quite how it goes. The Old Testament exists because it's necessary to know what things were like before Jesus came. Jesus preached that he didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He didn't tell us to forget the first half, he told us ways to make the first half better.

I do not want to come off as an intolerant asshole, I just don't see the wonderfulness of praising God for all eternity after I die.

Eh, sounds better than life right now. In Heaven you don't have to pay taxes. :V

grimfang999

04-29-2010, 11:18 AM

Though may I point out religion and faith are not the same thing. If there is still a part of you which does have belief in a supreme being or force then figure out your path.

Also, the reason why it contradicts is because the old testament was of the Jewish faith. The teachings of Jesus is Christian. Dont know why the old testament is still including, the only explanation which I can think of is that either God got bored/sick of his ways and changed to make peace, or its a new God entirely, or just Jesus was 30bc version of Ghandi and they wanted to show that.

Like I said though, if you dont want to believe, and that feels completely right, then dont believe, the only true faith is that which is within your heart, and perhaps it is to worship one being or a particular being that guides the person. I shall say a question I have not said seriously in a while, Who knows?

MrsSallyBakura

04-29-2010, 11:34 AM

Though may I point out religion and faith are not the same thing.

Yes, I agree.

Also, the reason why it contradicts is because the old testament was of the Jewish faith. The teachings of Jesus is Christian.

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus didn't want to instill another religion, he wanted to add stuff to Judaism.

But because many of the Jews didn't want to believe, and because the Gentiles were now open to believe in the teachings of Jesus, it more-or-less lead to the split of Judaism and Christianity. Not once does Jesus calls his teachings "Christian."

Dont know why the old testament is still including, the only explanation which I can think of is that either God got bored/sick of his ways and changed to make peace, or its a new God entirely, or just Jesus was 30bc version of Ghandi and they wanted to show that.

I think this is a question for another thread entirely... in fact, may actually be best to ask a Christian scholar. There are people who can better answer this question than I.

grimfang999

04-29-2010, 11:42 AM

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus didn't want to instill another religion, he wanted to add stuff to Judaism.

But because many of the Jews didn't want to believe, and because the Gentiles were now open to believe in the teachings of Jesus, it more-or-less lead to the split of Judaism and Christianity. Not once does Jesus calls his teachings "Christian."
Oh right forgot he was Jewish. Unless he followed the faith but not the book. My mum believes he was correcting the interpretations left in the Old testament, but by wheat happened sometimes in those books say otherwise. Of course, while I have never read the bible except from attempting to read the first chapter and getting bored about a third of the way through Noahs flood, that the wars might have represented necessity of survival, and the plagues of Moses that slavery was wrong, which is very similar to what Jesus taught. once more this is quite a skcetchy topic which history has never ellborated or explained on in my knowledge

I think this is a question for another thread entirely... in fact, may actually be best to ask a Christian scholar. There are people who can better answer this question than I.

indeed, we could make a thread about it...

MrsSallyBakura

04-29-2010, 11:50 AM

Oh right forgot he was Jewish. Unless he followed the faith but not the book. My mum believes he was correcting the interpretations left in the Old testament, but by wheat happened sometimes in those books say otherwise. Of course, while I have never read the bible except from attempting to read the first chapter and getting bored about a third of the way through Noahs flood, that the wars might have represented necessity of survival, and the plagues of Moses that slavery was wrong, which is very similar to what Jesus taught. once more this is quite a skcetchy topic which history has never ellborated or explained on in my knowledge

I think your mom's right, to at least some degree. Jesus re-interpreted what it means to keep holy the Sabbath, what it means to forgive, what it means to keep the commandments, etc.

By the way, if you want to read the Bible, start with the Gospels... not very many people can actually stomach reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

grimfang999

04-29-2010, 11:54 AM

OK got it. Creation story is interesting and all, but when it gets to Adam and Eve living for 600 years or something (i think thats moons) and going through all their family tree it got tedious. Yeah if I ever get roud to trying to read it again ill do that. My main reason is theolgical and religious understanding, on top of curiosity :P

TitanAura

04-29-2010, 12:30 PM

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus didn't want to instill another religion, he wanted to add stuff to Judaism.

But because many of the Jews didn't want to believe, and because the Gentiles were now open to believe in the teachings of Jesus, it more-or-less lead to the split of Judaism and Christianity. Not once does Jesus calls his teachings "Christian."
And that's why anti semites are idiots. Jews are one of the few religions/cultures/races (alongside Native Americans and Africans *excuse my broad definition of Native Americans and Africans, there's too many types to keep track of*) that I actually feel sympathy for, and that's SYMPATHY btw, not pity because they don't need my help. I, however, have no sympathy for African Americans because if I did, I'd be a hypocrite for yelling at my younger adopted siblings after they break my Wii for the 80th time or something. And that's my shitty version of race relations in a nutshell. *prepares shit missile*

musigal

04-29-2010, 08:14 PM

Reading this made me physically nauseous. Thank fuck you people are a dying breed.
=( Sorry, ling. Didn't mean to make you sick.

That's a little harsh towards someone who's probably speaking from the bottom of their heart, though I'll admit it sounded pretentious by not given the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, we all might be wrong about what we believe in.

Like TitanAura said, that's a bit harsh. I don't buy into any of it either, if anything, one of the reasons I'm an atheist is people who try to force their beliefs on others and talk about how you're a horrible person if you don't believe what they say. I don't like it either, but saying that might be going a bit far, especially if the person truly believes it to be true, and if anything, it only makes you look bad. Simply stating you don't agree with them is probably a better, and more respectable, way of going about it, but what do I know, I'm too pacifistic for my own good.
^ muse didn't tell you that you had to believe. She was stating what she believed in.

Thank you, you guys. Yes, what I said was sincerely out of the bottom of my heart, and I really really hope you all at least consider it. I care about you all (you too, ling) and I really hope and pray that you do choose what I have chosen.
in regards to the point of saying I might be wrong, this is a thread about what we think. I assumed that people would know that my post was only representing what I believe, and though I do believe that there is only one truth, I'm not trying to force it on anyone. like I said, you have the choice to believe it or not.

grimfang999

04-30-2010, 04:53 AM

Fat1Fared

04-30-2010, 06:58 AM

-Wow, I forgot all about this page lol, I need to answer my own question lol, well do after exams now, several issues though after scanning through last 2 pages, first things last <_<

=Muse, while I agree with most peoples sentiments that what underling said was harsh (and I know I can be brash when feel like it) but I have to ask you something, if you really do care about me, never (and i mean never) pray for me, I may try to explain it someday, in sameway some day I may explain why I could never to live you have chosen to, but to be honest, I think that would just hurt most people here's feelings <worse than normal> so please, just take my word for it and respect my request that you do not do it, if I end up in hell for it, so be it, (Know this probably sounds strange thing and most of you are thinking that for something who finds the idea of praying so silly, why they would then take such a stance at thought of someone doing for them, but like said this one thing i really do not want to get into, criticise me if wish, but meh i have my choice, now up to others to deal with that choice how wish)

=Next, I notice a lot of poeple seem to believe they know more about Killshot heard than he did, I find this all rather strange, I mean I have no idea what he hear, but I trust him and his intelligence enough to know that he is more than capable of knowing what someone is saying to him and so I think I will accept his primary judgment over any secondary sources right now, but anyway moving on, my feelings on this, personally this is something I have alway disliked the idea of, but to explain I will use a story:-
-There was this artist, not a famous one or successful one, but a talented artiest never the less, and one day she painted what I consider a very beautiful piece of artwork and poeple were praising her efforts rather graciously, then a religious person, not sure of what religion, but I believe Christian of some form, said words "My god has truly worked his hands brilliantly through you"
-Now this artiest is rather brass herself, when wishes to be and though not very strong in views of religion ether way, she did feel uncomfortable about comment and its overly presumptive nature, so she felt the need to reply. "I am sorry, but I do not believe in god"
-To which the religious person then said. "It does not matter whether your selflessness enough to give god credit he deserves or not, the gifts you possess, he gives you by working through you"
-Well the story went on, before some thoughtful passerby seeing the problem his friend was making herself, gapped her hurried her away from the artiest and her group of somewhat indigent friends.

=Now moving away from the extrinsic points of that story, it shows something I can never personally accept as right, the idea that everything good we do, we do because god allowes us too, and our creations are intruth gods creations, this is because of 3 reasons:

1=The main thing is, when I saw that artwork, like most others I saw the glory of man, made by man, because fundermentually, our one truly redeeming skill, is our creativity and ability to make things, whether they be of beauty like art or function like car or just because we can, like the Afial tower, and yet some poeple are willing to pass that credit our one greatest trait onto what can only be called a beine god at best, screw that, when succeed, it is because of my own merits (not saying other people may not help me, but in ends it is me) and the same rules apply, when I fail, if I fail, it is my failure and this leads me onto point 2

2=These people are willing to give our successes to god, but somehow when we fail, he is quick to be removed from the picture, screw that god, you cannot have it both ways, ether your are both our success and failures or you neither, I personally believe he is neither, but lets use example of the atomic bomb, now we will go pass the counter flick arguments why Nukes are good and agree that generally something which can kill million poeple in few seconds is not a good thing, this was still one of mans greatest creations and never doubt that, the ability to split an atomic or now bombard it is pure brilliance, pure amazing and seemingly beyond any other creation we have made. It shows man at both his creative best and cynical worse, it is almost as if we incarnated ourselves in that creation. Yet, surely something of such amazing creation, if we believe god is behind our abilities of success, can only happen because of gods helping hand and if we follow that train of thought, then though brilliant creation, it is still evil one and god must take his credit for its existence, unless god is willing to admit, the destiny of man, is ours and ours alone, I would rather take credit for both our failings and successes, than our successes alone, but I would never let someone take credit for our successes and leave with only our failures to keep.

3=Finally the idea that god works through us, does devalue us, like it or not, it does, it means we are flawed without him, but screw that, to be honest, I think at this point in my life, I would rather stay flawed in his eyes, because not sure I actually like his idea of perfection or at least one, which we are told his idea, as no idea what he wants if does exist.

=So that is why I agree with Killshot about his comment, even if may not be same reasons why we both believe it, because I do not know what he hear or how he came to such beliefs, but from what I read, I could not disagree with him

=Grim on the flip side, atheism is called a lack of tolerance for religion, so really all moot really.

Kanap

04-30-2010, 08:06 AM

Anyone ever gotten their hands on the Necronomicon? (Besides me)

grimfang999

04-30-2010, 11:00 AM

Grim on the flip side, atheism is called a lack of tolerance for religion, so really all moot really.

That is quite a general term. the literal meaning is "no God" in Greek. Many people just dont want people to be closed minded, and get even more annoyed when athiests say they are closed minded.

now with the God working through people, yeah that is pretty contradictive. I think God or Gods at the very most would help sometimes, but no more than assisting with a small hint of thought or something. In this case, its guidance rather than control. The ending result is, as you said, overall the creation of man. I do agree with you, those who take it to the extreme to say it was all God is somewhat foolish. All things are best in moderation says Buddists, and that is very true, thus the reason I say "just as intended" rather than being overly zealotous.

@kanap: nope, I havent

TitanAura

04-30-2010, 11:05 AM

Really sometimes I think when people are telling people about their beliefs they are often mistaken for trying to convert the person, but in truth that person just wants the other to acknowledge they understand the belief and respect it, but the person is being to closed minded and making the one who is trying to teach religious tolerance over conversion frustrated at theperson not listening.

There are a couple of people who literally do try to convert howevert and I am not saying these people dont exist, im just saying its a general misinterpretation
Here's why: Everyone is at the center of the universe. Not to say everyone thinks they are the center of everything but general consensus is that if someone exists, chances are they think they are the most important thing since the invention of the wheel. As such, if someone starts talking about otherworldly religious beliefs, it can easily be portrayed as that person standing up on top of a pedestal 2 miles up in the sky talking down to everyone. The problem is most people willing to talk about their religious beliefs ARE that type of person.

MrsSallyBakura

05-01-2010, 11:22 PM

I just wanna comment on one thing for now:

Next, I notice a lot of poeple seem to believe they know more about Killshot heard than he did, I find this all rather strange, I mean I have no idea what he hear, but I trust him and his intelligence enough to know that he is more than capable of knowing what someone is saying to him and so I think I will accept his primary judgment over any secondary sources right now

It's not so much that we don't trust killshot's judgment, because there can be preachers who say weird things.

I'm mostly speaking from my own experiences in being told stuff like, "We are nothing without God" and how I personally understood what that meant. I was more-or-less giving the benefit of the doubt to the preacher(s), and if killshot wanted to come in and give more depth to the situation, then he'd be free to do so.

Oh, and this too:

now with the God working through people, yeah that is pretty contradictive. I think God or Gods at the very most would help sometimes, but no more than assisting with a small hint of thought or something.

As far as I know, that is what it means for God to work through people. He drops a hint and lets people have a choice in the matter.

Underling

05-03-2010, 01:58 PM

>Get called depraved and useless.
>Become insulted to the point of nausea.
>State this fact.
>HURR DURR INTOLERANCE AT ITS BEST
>Get banned.

OH THE HYPOCRISY, I HOPE MY BODY CAN TAKE IT!

Fat1Fared

05-03-2010, 02:20 PM

Grim you completely missed the point of what I said

Sally well, i am merely going on what is said and it appeared that many believed killshot misunderstood what he was told and it would not be beyond my beleif range that poeple would think this, if it sevred their purspose to think, I personally and probably no less baisly go for the side of trusting killshots judgment more

Underling I am going to jump in, as if you get banned over this, it will be for all your failings a dark day for this place, and I going to say, poeple do not generally disagree with what you say, they just cannot always endear to how you say it, of course you would not be underling if did not say it like that, so kind of catch 22 going on here huh, with this I agree Muse's way of thinking does make me feel undermined, but i also realise this is not out of malious intent on her part, but more a failing of understanding for our own beleifs, whixh generally comes from idea that Atherists somehow do not believe anything and cannot ever be insulted of this, of course this completely illogical as believing do not believe something else, is still a beleif and so still find ones self, undermined when poeple tell you are lesser for choosing that path, but I feel here, when look at the content as well as context of what muse put, her heart was in the right place, even if the result was not what we wanted and so the result was undesiaised one on her part, so maybe rather than crushing her, for innocent mistake to what we believe, we should merely accept it as just that, an innocent mistake and if one part partically do not feel can accept, merely politically explain that do not wish for this to seen or done this way IE, me asking not to prayed for, like said that is what is context here, but then again you wouldn't be underling, if you enndeared to this train of thought, so ignore all of it please, just don't get banned ^_^

Underling

05-03-2010, 02:26 PM

Underling I am going to jump in, as if you get banned over this, it will be for all your failings a dark day for this place, and I going to say, poeple do not generally disagree with what you say, they just cannot always endear to how you say it, of course you would not be underling if did not say it like that, so kind of catch 22 going on here huh, with this I agree Muse's way of thinking does make me feel undermined, but i also realise this is not out of malious intent on her part, but more a failing of understanding for our own beleifs, whixh generally comes from idea that Atherists somehow do not believe anything and cannot ever be insulted of this, of course this completely illogical as believing do not believe something else, is still a beleif and so still find ones self, undermined when poeple tell you are lesser for choosing that path, but I feel here, when look at the content as well as context of what muse put, her heart was in the right place, even if the result was not what we wanted and so the result was undesiaised one on her part, so maybe rather than crushing her, for innocent mistake to what we believe, we should merely accept it as just that, an innocent mistake and if one part partically do not feel can accept, merely politically explain that do not wish for this to seen or done this way IE, me asking not to prayed for, like said that is what is context here, but then again you wouldn't be underling, if you enndeared to this train of thought, so ignore all of it please, just don't get banned ^_^

Dear god... this is all one sentence.

But thanks, I guess. I get what you're saying.

At this point I'm mostly pissed off at the fact a certain biased member of staff has quite clearly been allowed to abuse their position.

killshot

05-03-2010, 03:11 PM

It's not so much that we don't trust killshot's judgment, because there can be preachers who say weird things.

I'm mostly speaking from my own experiences in being told stuff like, "We are nothing without God" and how I personally understood what that meant. I was more-or-less giving the benefit of the doubt to the preacher(s), and if killshot wanted to come in and give more depth to the situation, then he'd be free to do so.

I don't know if you realize it or not, but a lot of what gets said in a church has some pretty heavy implications. I know for a fact that the phrase, "worthless sinners" was used quite a bit. I was told all people are sinners, so this implies that all people are worthless. Does this sound like something you should tell a child? That fucked with me as an 8 year old kid. I was pretty much told I was worthless if I didn't believe in an invisible person that everyone else seemed to be able to feel.

I went to a church that was pretty heavy on "cafeteria christianity" (pick what you want to believe in and ignore the rest) so I don't imagine it was much different than most other churches in America. I don't imagine you would feel the way I did when I sat in church. Most christians have an ability to block out or at least ignore some of the more frightening aspects of their religion. As a child, did you ever think about what it meant when they said God knows your thoughts and intentions? Until I realized God wasn't real, I thought I was going to hell every time I saw a Victoria's Secret commercial. To be fair, I highly doubt my preacher had any ill intentions behind what he told us. You and I could probably hear the exact same thing and we would interpret it differently. I don't have whatever christians have that makes their religion sound reasonable. It sort of makes me wonder if anyone really believes it, or if they subconsciously know its wrong and trick themselves into believing it so they will fit in with everyone else.

Fat1Fared

05-03-2010, 04:05 PM

Dear god... this is all one sentence.

But thanks, I guess. I get what you're saying.

At this point I'm mostly pissed off at the fact a certain biased member of staff has quite clearly been allowed to abuse their position.

=Sorry, i am highly inarticluale and writing this in rush, while working on coursework,

Killshot you are braver man than me saying that lol, but I honestly cannot understand what it is to be religious or why one is, which why made this page, sadly, the only person who answered it so far is muse :smiley5:

=This man sort of says what I think, in a way I find amusing,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8gsIuEvEs0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EXqdJ4L7I

MrsSallyBakura

05-03-2010, 04:21 PM

I don't know if you realize it or not, but a lot of what gets said in a church has some pretty heavy implications.

I can believe that.

I know for a fact that the phrase, "worthless sinners" was used quite a bit. I was told all people are sinners, so this implies that all people are worthless. Does this sound like something you should tell a child? That fucked with me as an 8 year old kid. I was pretty much told I was worthless if I didn't believe in an invisible person that everyone else seemed to be able to feel.

Hmm, I'm not sure if the word "worthless" was ever coined with the word "sinner" when I was a child. I do know that when I was 7 we learned about sin and had to make our first confession (since I'm Catholic, so that's probably different from most traditions). But, I dunno, it wasn't that big of a deal to me. I did bad things but that was OK because I believe in God's mercy.
Maybe I'm just more happy-go-lucky. *shrugs*

I actually have a huge problem with the word "worthless" anyways. Nobody is worthless, no matter how many mistakes they've made.

I went to a church that was pretty heavy on "cafeteria christianity" (pick what you want to believe in and ignore the rest) so I don't imagine it was much different than most other churches in America.

Ew. I really hate that way of thinking, lol.

There are many Christians in general that "pick and choose" what to believe in, whether they be Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox. There are many Catholics who believe in the cafeteria kind of thinking, but that's not actually what the Catholic Church teaches, so anyone who says they're Catholic but picks and chooses what to believe in aren't actually in line with what the Church teaches.

I can't speak for Protestant denominations, though. I think the Lutheran and Anglican churches are more set in their beliefs, though, and don't believe in "cafeteria Christianity."
Then again, most denominations are so very different from each other that I'm a little surprised that they can even be under one umbrella term these days.

I don't imagine you would feel the way I did when I sat in church. Most christians have an ability to block out or at least ignore some of the more frightening aspects of their religion. As a child, did you ever think about what it meant when they said God knows your thoughts and intentions?

I don't remember if I really thought about it that hard when I was a kid, but certainly when I got older I have. I just figure that if God is real and can see everything that I do, there isn't really anything that I can do about it. I'd be spending too much energy on something that I can't prevent if I started worrying about a supernatural being watching my every move. The point of having a relationship with God isn't about trying to impress him or anything, it's about just having a friendship. When you have that friendship established the reason why you do good is to keep that friendship going, not because you're scared to death about going to Hell.

I know it does sound silly to have a friendship with someone who isn't exactly the most tangible being in the world, but that's what Christians are supposed to believe so I'm just saying how it is as best as I can.

Until I realized God wasn't real, I thought I was going to hell every time I saw a Victoria's Secret commercial.

Well that's silly. Watching stuff on TV isn't a sin and never has been. I think they need to start emphasizing that at a younger age... then again, there are many people who from their uber-conservative traditional beliefs (not necessarily bound in Christianity) who will tell you that watching certain TV shows is a sin. I know that I had a lady who taught religious ed my sophomore year of high school who claimed that watching Buffy was sinful. None of the class believed her, lol.

To be fair, I highly doubt my preacher had any ill intentions behind what he told us. You and I could probably hear the exact same thing and we would interpret it differently. I don't have whatever christians have that makes their religion sound reasonable.

That's fair.

It sort of makes me wonder if anyone really believes it, or if they subconsciously know its wrong and trick themselves into believing it so they will fit in with everyone else.

Well, I will have you know that I do actually believe. And if I really wanted to "fit in," then I'd be an atheist. I live in an incredibly liberal area of the United States. Many of my classmates tend to talk down on religion. My other Christian friends can attest to that same kind of experience.
I know that you're not necessarily talking about me when you say that, because I'm fairly certain that there ARE Christians who just want to fit into their social circles, but I think it just depends on the person and their circumstances.

Thanks for your answer.

grimfang999

05-03-2010, 04:26 PM

Grim you completely missed the point of what I said

then please, clarify, often people get annoyed with me for not answering the question properly when its their own fault because they didnt make it clear what they were talking about

AllisonWalker

05-03-2010, 04:29 PM

I live in an incredibly liberal area of the United States.
Right next door to Ann Arbor, MI.
:p

Kanap

05-03-2010, 09:07 PM

i will say this, Russian Orthodox music is fucking amazing to sing in a choir.

Yami Bakura's B

05-04-2010, 01:57 AM

Simple answer, there is no answer to religion, everyone will always argue about it. That's also why world peace shall never be attainable.

maisetofan

05-04-2010, 02:37 AM

Wait a second....
There is a liberal area in the USA????
*faints* JKS

I thought aside from CA it was pretty much Conservative!!!!!
well the southern states anyway

Yami Bakura's B

05-04-2010, 02:52 AM

Wait a second....
There is a liberal area in the USA????
*faints* JKS

I thought aside from CA it was pretty much Conservative!!!!!
well the southern states anyway
It's semi-liberal around my area, I mean, we don't have the death penalty here, and I guess we have a couple of gays and lesbians in places of power in a few churches around here.

maisetofan

05-04-2010, 03:00 AM

Ah the death penalty...*no comment* that is a whole new thread discussion altogether
Well thats good its semi liberal :D

Yami Bakura's B

05-04-2010, 03:02 AM

Ah the death penalty...*no comment* that is a whole new thread discussion altogether
Well thats good its semi liberal :D
Yep. :)

AllisonWalker

05-04-2010, 04:10 AM

Wait a second....
There is a liberal area in the USA????
*faints* JKS

I thought aside from CA it was pretty much Conservative!!!!!
well the southern states anyway

Um, no. The east coast is extremely liberal, along with the west coast, and most of the cities.

Underling

05-04-2010, 05:13 AM

Wait a second....
There is a liberal area in the USA????

Compared to the rest of civilised society, no.

AllisonWalker

05-04-2010, 02:24 PM

"Civilized".
And Underling would know so much about that because he lives here.
;D

FreakAzoid

05-04-2010, 10:31 PM

Underling is better than an American like you
Your country would not let women vote until 1926

AllisonWalker

05-04-2010, 10:32 PM

Underling is better than an American like you
Your country would not let women vote until 1926

THEY BELONG IN THE KITCHEN!

FreakAzoid

05-04-2010, 10:46 PM

The get back to your kitchen bitch

MrsSallyBakura

05-04-2010, 10:48 PM

Wait a second....
There is a liberal area in the USA????
*faints* JKS

I thought aside from CA it was pretty much Conservative!!!!!
well the southern states anyway

Oh man, what little you know... DX

Many of the New England states are pretty liberal, and I live in southeastern Michigan, which is liberal as well.

College campuses tend to be more liberal as well.

Are they liberal compared to other countries that are considered liberal? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I've been to a couple of European countries but nowhere near long enough to understand their political culture.

But

This is waaaaaay off topic. Back to religion and stuff, please.

maisetofan

05-05-2010, 01:28 AM

Okay Sally I was joking, We did a study on the united states in high school and I do read, contrary to popular belief on this forum :/

Yeah religion and stuff....
Well all I know is that when the role is called up yonder I'll be there

ThePRPD

05-05-2010, 06:16 AM

Underling is better than an American like you
Your country would not let women vote until 1926
lrn2history
The 19th Amendment, allowing women to vote, was passed in the year 1919.

And if you really want to say something about how America treated women, compare it to the way other parts of the world treated women at the time and even today.

maisetofan

05-05-2010, 06:03 PM

New Zealand women were given the right to vote before any other country in the world
thats pretty much all we have :D HEE HEE oh and Sir Edmund Hilary

Jotenks

05-05-2010, 09:55 PM

You also have Australians laughing at the way you say fish n chips. I dont think any aussie cares how immature it is.

maisetofan

05-05-2010, 11:15 PM

Then again we laugh at the way they say it
Feesh and Cheeps
Everything is "EEEEE"

grimfang999

05-06-2010, 07:28 AM

back on subject... RELIGION

Jotenks

05-06-2010, 10:01 AM

aw, you're no fun.

Back on topic, how would we start talking about it after a big off topic break. maybe with a troll comment?

You're all going to hell.
nurr god isnt real so im not going to hell. (that should suffice)

NinjaLlama

05-06-2010, 11:11 AM

grimfang999

05-06-2010, 11:21 AM

my view exactly with what the llama said

Underling

05-06-2010, 11:45 AM

I read something once saying "I'd rather die believing and find there is no god, then die not believing to find there is one," or something along those lines.
I'm not convinced about Gods existence, but it does make you think.

hurr durr pascal's wager

there are tens of thousands of gods, picking one "just to be on the safe side" doesn't do shit for your chances

grimfang999

05-06-2010, 11:51 AM

hurr durr pascal's wager

there are tens of thousands of gods, picking one "just to be on the safe side" doesn't do shit for your chances

well then you keep being on the safe side an support all Gods, not by name but in spirit.

Besides, how you you know that all monotheist Gods are the same one with many titles and the polytheist Gods are what in monotheism are known as angels with the father or king of the Gods the same God as the monotheist one? I is possible is it not?

Underling

05-06-2010, 11:54 AM

well then you keep being on the safe side an support all Gods, not by name but in spirit.

Besides, how you you know that all monotheist Gods are the same one with many titles and the polytheist Gods are what in monotheism are known as angels with the father or king of the Gods the same God as the monotheist one? I is possible is it not?

it's equally possible only atheists get into heaven for all we know, this train of thought is moronic

Fat1Fared

05-06-2010, 11:56 AM

maisetofan

05-06-2010, 05:53 PM

-I would actually be insulted if I was god by that thought, I mean anyone who believes in god just to be on the safe side is......well that is most stupid thing I have ever heard and religion doesn't exactly rise itself at the best of times

I agree that is lame and cowardly
Sheesh think for yourself, if you "believe" just in case then you are heading for a fall.....

Faith is more important in my opinion anyway
Anyone can say "i believe in god" God is a very nominal description I mean to Muslims Allah is God, the same God who created the heavens and the earth
The difference comes with most beliefs when Jesus is mentioned
Some believe he was a man, a good man but just a man
Judaism ignores the book of Isaiah and I believe muslims do believe jesus and Mohammed were both prophets well at least thats what my muslim friend told me, but allah was the one to be worshiped.

Mormons believe in Joseph smith being the "prophet" oh and apparently the native american indians were white but SIN caused their skin to change color yes we get them coming to our door telling us about "the darker your skin, the more fill of sin you are"
Im thinking "this is supposed to persuade people to join your cultish lifestyle?"

Oh and then there was polygamy which has been ruled out by the Mormons as immoral but then there is Utah, polygamist compounds and the like...

MrsSallyBakura

05-06-2010, 08:32 PM

there are tens of thousands of gods, picking one "just to be on the safe side" doesn't do shit for your chances

This is true.

Don't believe in a god just for the afterlife.

Jotenks

05-06-2010, 09:12 PM

Mormons believe in Joseph smith being the "prophet" oh and apparently the native american indians were white but SIN caused their skin to change color yes we get them coming to our door telling us about "the darker your skin, the more fill of sin you are"
Im thinking "this is supposed to persuade people to join your cultish lifestyle?"

Oh and then there was polygamy which has been ruled out by the Mormons as immoral but then there is Utah, polygamist compounds and the like...

That episode of South Park (All about Mormons) summed it up pretty well actually.
Actually my dad's a pastor and he said that South Park did a better job of taking apart the Mormon religion better than any pastor he's seen. If parody can do that, what will the abridged series do.

maisetofan

05-07-2010, 01:05 AM

That episode of South Park (All about Mormons) summed it up pretty well actually.
Actually my dad's a pastor and he said that South Park did a better job of taking apart the Mormon religion better than any pastor he's seen. If parody can do that, what will the abridged series do.

I must say i was impressed with south parks take on it too :)
and the song
"Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb" :D

ThePRPD

05-07-2010, 04:09 AM

South Park summarized the mormon religion excellently and pointed out how stupid a lot of it was. Oh and apparently Jesus was American according to mormons.If parody can do that, what will the abridged series do.

:rageface::rageface:
"Abridged Series" are no different than parodies.

grimfang999

05-07-2010, 04:38 AM

This is true.

Don't believe in a god just for the afterlife.

I just want to say though that im talking here from a logic point of view. This does not necessarilly mean that my faith is comprised only of this.

Jotenks

05-07-2010, 09:07 AM

South Park summarized the mormon religion excellently and pointed out how stupid a lot of it was. Oh and apparently Jesus was American according to mormons.

:rageface::rageface:
"Abridged Series" are no different than parodies.

Oh course they're parodies, what I meant was what will littlekuriboh do if he decides to take on religion instead of adults playing card games. And ninjas.

MrsSallyBakura

05-07-2010, 10:28 AM

I think we should quit the Mormon bashing. There's probably a lot about it that we don't know.

I just want to say though that im talking here from a logic point of view. This does not necessarilly mean that my faith is comprised only of this.

I think it's allowable for it to be up there with reasons, but it just shouldn't be the only reason, and if it's your initial draw to the religion then you should find other reasons to believe in it as well. Since, you know, there's more to a religion than the afterlife.

maisetofan

05-07-2010, 09:00 PM

Some people know more about the mormon faith than others.
I dislike the racist point of view, even though they do not see it that way and i also do not believe jesus was american :/ or that Joseph smith had a wondrous vision either
they also do not believe jesus was the son of god, he was merely a prophet who died for a good cause.
The Jehovah's witnesses at least believed that god raised jesus from the dead, although they believe jesus was the arch angel michael and will sit at the right hand of god
but they do not believe jesus was crucified, they believe he was nailed to a pike as the cross represents catholic paganism and JW's are very anti catholic, i know i have friends who are JW's, they are nice people, they just believe in the watch tower over the actual bible :/ but like christians, JW's do not believe mary was a perpetual virgin because she had children to Joseph nor do they believe in confessing sins to a priest as the bible says to confess your sins to THE father not A father

i personally do not believe anyone is higher than anyone else in gods eyes
Priests are no more higher up in the lords eyes than you or me
And that is where Catholicism and christianity differ alongside with mary being a deity as well which christians, most of us do not believe. She was chosen to bear Jesus, she is not a saint or an angel

i am sure the catholics here will heavily disagree

MrsSallyBakura

05-07-2010, 10:56 PM

Well, I'll have you know that Catholics ARE Christian. Being Christian means believing in the Triune God and that Jesus was the Son of God who came to Earth and died on a cross and rose from the dead.

I think you mean differences between Catholics and Protestants.

But Mormons and JW's aren't consider Christian because they don't believe in the same Triune God as Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox.

maisetofan

05-08-2010, 12:25 AM

W
But Mormons and JW's aren't consider Christian because they don't believe in the same Triune God as Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox.

Ah this is true but JW's call themselves "Christian" :thatface:
Not that they have the same beliefs in jesus christ as the catholics and protestants do

So catholics believe in the body of christ as any denomination of the christian church does and that jesus died and rose again by his father in heaven, God
this is where mormonism and the Jehovahs witnesses disagree

MrsSallyBakura

05-08-2010, 12:41 AM

Well, you also have to understand that Protestant denominations exist because they broke off from the Catholic Church. So according to Reformation history, whether they like it or not, Protestant denominations have at least some roots in the Catholic Church, it's just that they disagree on a few or a lot of things.

Although you could say that Mormons and JW's broke off from Christians sects as well, I think they made enough changes to the Bible and to the Trinity and stuff that they made enough severe differences in their religions that we don't have a whole lot in common anymore.

maisetofan

05-08-2010, 01:57 AM

Yes i know that, I studied the reformation :)
I guess I was brought up in church that was under the belief that catholics and christians were separate because you also have the catholic charismatic denomination

also before christ there was no Catholicism
And when jesus was on earth i guess there was messianic judaism
Jews who followed jesus and believed in him and those who didn't and off course gentiles who came to believe in him
That would be real early day Christianity

Fat1Fared

05-08-2010, 07:21 AM

I have to say, I find something ironic about religious groups laughing at each others believes, because that normally says that there is something silly about the others beleifs, but when you all believe in things with no substantive base, there is a somewhat pot to kettle feeling about this

MrsSallyBakura

05-08-2010, 08:47 AM

Yes i know that, I studied the reformation :)
I guess I was brought up in church that was under the belief that catholics and christians were separate because you also have the catholic charismatic denomination

Charismatic Catholics aren't a separate denomination from the rest of Roman Catholicism because they are still in communion with Rome and the Pope. In fact, both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said good things about the charismatic renewal.

I would know - I am a charismatic Catholic but I also love the more traditional Masses. I like all kinds of worship. :)

There are, however, other non-Roman rites to Catholicism. They basically believe the same things as Roman Catholics (as far as I know), they just don't align themselves with the Pope and the Vatican (although some do, but I'm not an expert, I'm just spewing what I know about the subject).

also before christ there was no Catholicism

True facts.

And when jesus was on earth i guess there was messianic judaism
Jews who followed jesus and believed in him and those who didn't and off course gentiles who came to believe in him
That would be real early day Christianity

I agree.

@Fat: Even though I'm religious, I can see what you mean, lol.

maisetofan

05-08-2010, 08:40 PM

So you are a catholic charismatic?
So what are the specific differences between Traditioal catholics and charismatic catholics?

:)

greymagick711

05-11-2010, 02:50 PM

I just want to say though that im talking here from a logic point of view. This does not necessarilly mean that my faith is comprised only of this.

Nothing to do with the previous conversation, but when you mentioned logic, it made me remember this:

I was just casually talking with some of the people I did research over winter break with, and the topic of religion came up. Because, you know, ultimately we were using mice instead of human stem cells, which would be immoral in some animal right activists' views.

Anywhoo! One of them brought up that logic and rights have either have nothing or everything to do with religion. To paraphrase, if you're religious, it's not your logic to begin with because the morals and ethics that take a part in the decision making were dictated by 'God.'

Conversely, not being religious would mean that's it's your own logic.

Mm...I'm not sure if I totally agree with this. After all, religion seems to be such a big contributor to moral development, and therefore, decision making. If not by morals, then logic would just be weighed by the gains/loss outcome and the emotions a person has at the time.