First Ever UK TV Political Leaders Debate! your thoughts!

[Change of Heart]

Hi as I'm sure most people of the UK are aware there was just of recent a debate between the three main parties in the UK. Gordon Brown of Labour, David Cameron of the Conservatives, and Nick Clegg of the Liberal Democrats.

The winner of the opinion poll being Nick Clegg. with 51% in one poll and 43% in the ITV poll.

Feel free to discuss. I myself offer my own opinions on what they debated.

I believe Clegg's victory must be sweet but understand he has nothing to lose. the LibDems are the third party and so forth, underdogs. The other main two have their faults and have run the country for the longest however, I feel that experience ought to matter. He's relaxed because his job isn't on the line.

my own opinions on the debates:

Immigration

I'm very hard on immigration in fact one of my heroes is Enoch Powell. However before we commit to immigration control we must gather info on costs and benefits. I think immigration ought to be limited and yes we need to reinforce our borders. I would like to see what I call 'Albionisation' to see British customs adopted to foreigners coming in, to see English as the main language and not Polish or others introduced here. I want to see our laws abided and no exemptions like in the 'african way' of discipline in the home for example or arranged marriage due to your religion. Diversity isn't a bad thing it's only bad if the law is seen to triumph the minority against the majority. I want to see free speech and immigration widely debated not shunned as simple racism. I want to see the criminals and scroungers out and the hard working law abiders in. I want to see a holiday to celebrate not only our diversity but a holiday to acknowledge what Britain means to us, I want us to educate people about what it means to be of this country. No more second class citizens and the British Way of Life carried out.

Education

I'm mixed with the parties, I favour small classes like Nick Clegg and discipline with David Cameron. I want to see Education still under the State but a less bureaucratic National Curriculum and less regulations. Let the teachers deal with the students. I also want to see a swift anti-bullying campaign to wipe it out not just from schools but from the very fabric of life because even in jobs we're coerced. I want History to include the British Empire and Immigration, I would like us to implement classes on Values, and I mean on adjusting attitude and positive reinforcement. We need encouraging teachers and we need people who can put the energy and drive into putting students first and make them abuzz with thought, in activity and less lecture. I want also a compulsory class on Economics to guide our students to make the easy choice to better themselves in the everyday economy and as possible future shareholders. To help fund schools also I find no reason why industries shouldn't work with schools. Why not have them sponsor an event like local school sports events like inter school footie games, etc? or sell refreshments to earn money? Finally I think we need to introduce Councilling sessions for all our troubled students.

Economy

I'm not any expert on the economy but I believe in the Conservatives cut waste and cut taxes. I don't believe you can spend out of recession. I'm more akin to the Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman ideals. But I want to see a slight bit more regulation on finances to catch fraudulent white collar crooks. I want to see a tax on the banks though like Clegg, to reimburse the taxpayer. However other than that I think we must let the Free Market's will be. A recession is simply a cooling off period. Like an engine, the broken useless parts collapse and easily new ones take its place to compete. We need to counter the debt and reduce it, and to ensure stability.

Crime

I'm a bit fanatical on crime so please don't judge me. I prefer a tough stance. I want tougher sentencing. More than that I want to see the death penalty returned, my view is crooks shouldn't hide behind the veil of human rights. If you've murdered someone you've relinquished your rights as a person and as a law abiding citizen. As such despite the fact I hate playing God which we shouldn't do. I see no choice but for 'an eye for an eye'. Plus it would save money and open more space. There should be help for people who want to quit drugs and we need more positive community atmospheres to help volunteer to help youth against resorting to yobbery and criminal offenses.
But prisons to me sounds too good, to cushy, to really deter criminals we ought to build a 'Clipper System' CLPR- centre for Labour and Penal Reform. Simply a style of Labour Camp that'll force crooks to rebuild their communities, with road construction or cleaning out our sewers and other hazardous jobs. I mean a US Federal style prison in the sense like in Louisiana. and Yes as anything more police on the beat and cut the red tape.



Health:

I'm very pro-NHS but I feel it needs a bit of a reform itself, we must cut management and have doctors more accountable to patients, we need to cut the paperwork too. We need to oversee that less spending is on computers and more time is spent on keeping the supply to the demand and to ensure we keep up with modern day technology. All needs must be met and we need to figure out how to deal with an aging population and one of those ways is Cameron's plan to let the elderly who don't need to be institutionalised keep their home.



Defence: We do need to keep the Trident missiles it's not a Cold War relic, realistically it would be foolish to expect North Korea or Iran to just give up their programmes we must be prepared for any occassion. I think we need to introduce a mini-NHS a Defense Social Service to ensure our boys have proper facilities and treatment, better care for the aftermath of war whether it's Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or Shell Shock or any injury or problem they need to be cared for and ensured a home for the heroes they are. We need a review as both Clegg and Cameron said to ensure we're efficient and to prepare in all accounts. My priority is for us to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan our boys fought well but its gone on for too long, we've displayed our strength but weakened our place in the world by our politicians lies and cover ups. We deserve the dignity of withdrawing and being ready for anything that may happen as an aftermath. Let us ensure no invasion shall progress without authority of the people in referendum. That in self-defense or territorial defense only shall it be used unless the situation with an ally is truly dire and NATO is needed. I myself think we ought to reinforce the Falklands as Argentina and Venezuela are having a go against us.

Other political beliefs:

I believe that MPs ought to be more accountable and should be allowed to be immediately discharged by their constituents in a vote. I believe our voting system deserves a rehaul, I choose the Australian, Alternative Vote System whereby you need 50+% to win by a choice of selection (listing favourites as 1,2,3...if not 50% or over the party with least votes loses out and ballots are reshuffled till a clear winner is present). I'm against reforming the House of Lords it's wrong to use the MPs scandal as a scapegoat for such a reform. The Lords have done nothing wrong it's ironically our 'democratically elected' Commons MPs who commit offense. The Lords have little power and we shouldn't squander what little they have as they counter-balance the cocky Commons. I think the only way to assure our Union is saved is to Federalise our Union like the US and ensure a new deal between our regions. I'm pro-monarch so I'd prefer we make it a Federal Monarchy, like in the UAE.
Also i want to crush all forms of Political Correctness and ensure Liberty and Freedom is upheld plus proper freedom of speech (as I'm against ID cards). Security should be upheld by the Home Office and our counter-terrorist units plus MI5/MI6.

Foreign Affairs:

We must look out for British Affairs and only in that case, we must look out for number one. We may have a special relationship with the US but I'd rather it be mutual and not one-sided we have a right to turn down helping the Americans and mustn't be bullied into anything. I'm also very much against sending Aid unless it's a natural disaster or otherwise- not a man made one.(charities or individual donations are an exception) but my beliefs are, you give money then theres' no incentive for Africa or others to develop by themselves. Their problems are their own as is their corruption or regimes. Too much emphasis is on the white man's fault. We forget African states have been independent since the 50s, 60s maybe 70s. They've had many years to govern themselves, they're failing but it was their choice to break away and independence is what they asked for. Let the UN deal with it (though in my view the UN is a paper tiger it needs more teeth). i'm Pro-NATO I prefer their services than the EU. I'm Anti-EU I feel we should pull out but keep the economic benefits as London is a major financial centre, we ought to demand a similar status as Switzerland. Lets keep Brussels out of our lives.


There you have it!

[Fat1Fared]

Well, I like the effort you put in this thread and having finally got out to watching the show on u-tube, <had to do revision last night> going to put my views on it all (well use structure you already put in place as seems nice one)
PS don’t worry about lack of response, remember not many of us here are of voting age and many of those who are, may feel trepidation at the idea of stating it: (unlike me)

=First, though this was interesting, did anyone else think that the supposed public crowd, where all really, really bad actors, I mean seriously most of them were reading off their que cards in the actual show itself, it was not a completely fair debate as the chair had far too much control and could send it anyway he wished and it only tackled the issues he thought were big ones, so questions about truly important things like the thing which could win my vote over anything else, removing of Terrorism Acts, is completely ignored. However did give us some insight into this and though with Politic’s, you need to ask for double and expect half, least was some interesting points with the idea’s thrown about.

So first my feelings on the parties and their leaders in general:

Labour

=Ok, Labour are same old shit, new shabbier packet. Seriously, they appear to ether be living in cookuwho land or we entered a time-warp to 14 years ago when they first started campaigning under Blair, and so the first thing need to say is, if they have not fulfilled it yet, they never will (13 years is a century in parliamentary terms and we have far less than we did then, economy) but this is not just because they do not want it, it is because their theology is all wrong and completely impractical. Just saying we are going to throw lots of money at everything is not going to win my vote, because there is a reason that spending has gone up, service has gone down, in our county, it is because throwing money around like confetti while mindlessly hoping some it does some good, doesn’t work, we do not need 1 manager (on 250,000) for every 10 nurses (on 20,000-40,000) in NHS, we do not need identity cards….etc, labour has clearly not learnt in 10 years, it not about how much you spend, but how wisely you spend it and so for even if we forget just how crap their politic’s have been in last 13 years, they lose my vote completely on that account and if they get in, it prove that democracy simply cannot work in county as empathetic as ours.
Brown=Came off like a big kid in small school ground, very confident (to the point of cocky) but in end, his constant attacks at Cameron, rather answering questions was just petty and his constant joking about things was simply nauseating, seriously brown your not funny, so do not try to be.

Conservative

=Well this finally convinced me, that these will be the best party for Britain’s economy and strength, same also convinced me, will not do much for our society. I won’t go into all the points, but I am not interested in just having a strong county, I want one which has ideal’s of propriety beyond, how much money can we make, how many counties can we bully. I want one like Switzerland, where you wake up in the morning thinking, ok so we are not the most globally important county in the world, but I know that my county is run on ideals of helping each other and our government is there as a system, not a glorified banker. Basically this is Thatchers government reborn (though that is not a bad thing as Thatchers government was not a good one, it is not what I actually want.)
=Cameron Well like Brown, he sometimes got into involved in the petty scrapping, (but not as much) and their was 1 too many sycophantic moments for me, while the Army….etc does diverse praise, do not give just to gain my support, it is simply gross. However he showed that he will be a strong leader and is going to be leader who will not hold back when comes to throwing the punches at things like spending cuts, just shame, like Thatcher you won’t know what he is really going to do, till already done, as though he was most inspiring of the leaders, also said the least, which is worry.

Lib Dem’s

=Though, I am clearly bais here, they won this debate hands down, they have set out what their going to do and how their going to do it, they nicely highlighted the fact that we have had all the same old same old before, why not go for the party which already tried to do the reforms which Labour and Conservative’s only talk about, and though like Labour, they are making promises of social help as well as economic, their promises could have actually be fulfilled and ain’t just about highering more managers, wasting more money and getting more votes, but actually making the county one which is well run, but will still give help those who need it, I can see this being the modern day versions of Lloyd-Georges well-fair reformers, it will be more about safety netting people than giving them perfect life, but it will improve all round, if we give it time too. There only weakness is if people see them as ether still the small time party or if people think their sounding to good to be true.
=Clegg=He came off as the least confident and least versed to public speaking, but he also came off as most dignified and straight. UNLIKE the other two, he actually tried to answer the questions asked, rather than questions he wanted asked and he did it in a plain and (for political mind,) refreshingly blunt manor. He also showed us not just what he wanted to do, but what he HAD already done, something neither of the other two parties could do, despite being the weaker party for 65 years -_-. Finally, I like how their were times when, not only did he not get involved in the petty fighting, but actually said, lets work together, because the people are more important than us.

Ok now onto the key issues raised:

Immigration

=Ok, this is the big pet-peeve for me, because as always it is used as a scapegoat by the very people who abuse it, fact remains, our economy over last 10 years was built on the this and also, these supposed idea’s that British people are made second class citizens in own county is wrong, even if we think it, but that doesn’t mean we this area does not need change. Here, I think Cameron’s point as lobbying the EU to change its free movement of people rules it a massively important one because, simply the rules are too free at the moment and it leaves poor countries with no work force, while giving richer ones to much of work force, but I think his arberty line is simply too strict and impractical an idea. Though I did not think Brown’s idea’s and actions in this area in last 1 and half have been bad ones, the question remains, why did it take 12 years for him to get working on it, simple because he was abusing it in past and he is abusing it now, plus the stat that people are lessening in this area is flawed as partly comes down to fact that they ain’t coming because we cannot offer them life they wanted, not just boarder control. I really liked Clegg’s idea about making that workers go where their needed as this is one area which has been a problem throughout, but it will interesting to see how practical it is when in application.

Education

=Well, despite the kid who asked the question having no idea what he was saying (seriously dude, look at the camera and show an emotion, you make Kevin Costner look inspired) this was an interesting one. Labour of course lost it, because if truth be known, all they offered is what we have and there is a reason our education system has gone from one of pride to one of shame with 25% of year 7’s still being illiterate, their restrictive and burocratic system doesn’t work. Conservative’s founded nice, but no idea what their offering us, unlike the Lib Dem’s, who openly offered us smaller classes (big yes) with less burocratic paperwork for teachers (and evidence to back this) and more personal free teaching, (big big yes) the only thing is, will it come true, well…we need to vote to find out that one. Also like you Hearts, I wonder if I will be learning any British History, seriously the British Empire is important, don’t sweep it under the carpet.

Ecomocy

=Seriously how is brown an economist, the guy couldn’t solve 1+1, he would come out with 6, yes, generally pulling the pug on money will lose jobs, but that is unstoppable now, you have driven this economy to where it is with the idea of reckless spreading in both parliament and street level, which has given our people lots of debts, a live for today, forget tomorrow view and no savings, this is because that what you made them do by dropping false carrots in their face. Plus we cannot keep taxing people 40% of their livings, it is simply not doable, so yer the road is painful Brown, but thanks to your parties crap leadership that is what we all have to accept, including you. Well the conversative’s are not going to great for us as individuals but their way of thinking will lower taxes and speading, while giving business’s back the insensitive’s to exist, so they win this one, as long as everyone accepts the true we cannot keep living the highlife we have been. Clegg’s plans are natural in their area, while he cuts in stealth taxes are good, however much I hate to say it, taxes bank’s is not, though they diverse a tax, as the banking center of the world, they hold up our county, if we start bullying them, watch them run. Also he simply won’t inspire businesses Cameron will.

Crime

=Not even bothering with Labour here, I mean they’re the biggest criminals going. We all of them completely missed out problems like white collar crime, but suppose to be expected, now though Conservative’s, we’re going to get tuff act sounds nice, it does not work and never has, however he point about drugs being a big sticking point is one that needs stating as is point both him and Clegg said, not just number of police, but number of police actually doing a job. Clegg however is being serious here, though people may believe he is being al pasy, he is not, Prisons are collages of crime as he called it and reoffending is the real problem, so his ideas about instead of just throwing them in jail, lets get them to actual attone for their actions, win’s my vote, the only way going to stop criminals (well not but still) is to show them there are better ways to live, also Clegg unlike others is not going to cut legal aid and start closing down Courts, which is big thing for me.

Health

=Well coming from family of NHS workers, unamazingly, this is one which is one which is big point for me as someone who’s whole family has worked in it for 3 generations (apart from me <__<.) Labour, same old, same old…blarr-blarr-blarr, yes your going to spend lots of money and promise us more time with doctors….etc, we have heard all before, but spending has never been your problem Labour, its just you always spend on wrong things, hiring a manager on 250,000, who then spends 10,000 redoing the management office’s while sacking 4 nurses to pay her own wage and even allow her to increase her own pay is simply not good enough. Doctors spending more time at work to see more patients sounds nice, but one of reasons there are mistakes their have been, is because you over work your staff and destroy their moral. Conversative’s, well I agree there are lots of things which need removing here and it needs to go back to square one, of NHS for needs, not wants, but I fear he maybe too extreme in his application of it, however Clegg somewhat adversative here as well, so not sure which is wins this one in my opinion.

Defence

=OK, so Labour say they have equipped our armed forces, then why do we have soldiers saying their unequipped for battle? Think all needs to be said for labour, however with conversative’s and lib dem’s, both pretty similar here, I like their idea for review and believe both will actually start equipping soldiers….etc, which means the strangest thing here is the Missile Mission of 30 years ago, well to me dump it, fact is, those countries like Iran cannot be hit by it and do we really need enough nukes to blow up our planet 5 times, surely once is enough????? Fact is, though Nukes are going to sit rotting in their silo’s forever and are their to keep people in check, not countries, if someone is insane enough to lunch a nuke in the modern day, he is insane enough to die, so having an updating an outdated nuke system to scare him, makes no difference here, what that is for, is make us think we are all about to burn to death.

So in my opinion, stands like this:

-Labour=0000000
-Conservatives =2 (gave them health)
-Lib Dem's=4

[niknnik]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet (compared to how much I could drag all this out, anyways..). This is also based on the second debate (you can watch it BBC iPlayer if you missed it).

The way I see it, Labour know the root of all the problems, the economy - They're the only real ones who know how to fix it after all the ups and downs over the last 13 years. But, they don't have too much skill beyond that and can't put it into use. Conservatives seem the opposite. They don't seem to grasp the money problem quite as well as Labour and they're focusing too much on the future rather than the current climate. Despite that they do, as they always have, have extremely good ideas when it comes to practical solutions and how to spend the money properly.
The Lib Dems seem perfect. They've devised a plan that seemingly fixes the economy and they know how to use the money after the economy is fixed - they've even explained how they're going to do it, in some cases. However, in the cases they haven't described, it seem almost impossible for it to work. They do have strong arguments though and as, Cameron (probably now regretfully) said, the country needs change. I personally don't like their involvement with the EU and how they want to introduce the Euro in Britain, but that depends solely on what people want.

Educations
Here, Labour are slowly changing things, but not really anything important, nor anything I particularly care about and it's the same with the Tories. The Lib Dems, however, have some very interesting prospects. They've always been the party to target the young people (which is probably why they want to lower the voting age to 16). Lib Dem Education reforms are one of their strongest threats to other parties.

Immigration
Again, this seems a weak point with Labour. Conservative probably have a better policy towards it, but it's not too great. The Lib Dems have a better policy than both of them, but it's still not that much of an issue.

Crime
Labour and the Lib Dems seem to know what needs improvement here. I'd like to say the Tories do too, but I fail to see how because, A. Cameron just has the worst judgement. I mean Hug a Hoodie? And he thought his bike would be safe if he kept it unchained, the pillock. And B. last year when opinion polls were at their highest for Conservative, crime was also up. This was when they had a really big influence over crime and they couldn't do anything.

Health
I can't be bothered to go into this :V

Defence
OK, I'm not entirely sure what to think of Labour here. Conservative said that the army didn't have enough resources, but according to Guardian evidence (bearing in mind The Guardian is pro-Labour), that was a false claim. Labour themselves quickly refused that and it seems to me that that was a false allegation. But Conservative and Labour both seem to have a good grasp on defence. In contrast, based on the second debate, the Lib Dems have no idea what's right. Not only did their policy and allegations towards Labour seem weak here, but Brown and Cameron agreed for once in their lives that Clegg just didn't have it right. Probably the Lib Dems weakest point

Foreign policy
Labour = good, always has been
Lib Dems = good
Conservative = meh, not bad

The big one... Economy
I'll probably get a lot of RAAAAAAAAAGE for this, but I honestly believe Labour are best for this. As I said earlier, Economy has always been Labours strong points. They're a left-wing party, for gods sake. People constantly blame Brown for the economy being all shit. But, first of all, it's not his fault it's ended up like this and, second, Conservative would have done a lot, lot worse. Again, as I said earlier, Conservative don't have a god grasp on the economy but are good on their policies. The Lib Dems, of course, have an amazing magical solution and we all love them for it.

Super mega awesome conclusion that's longer than the previous sections for some reason
OK, so I'm pro-Labour. I didn't want you to read all that and think "well of course he'd say that, he hates Conservative". I've tried to write this from an unbiased view and base my opinions on the debates, the manifestos, BBC News (which, by law, is neutral), The Daily Mail (SUUUUPER Conservative) and The Guardian (Labour). Also a bit of The Daily Mirror, but they're so ridiculously pro-Labour, I would think the editor is Gordon Brown's wife.
Based on the debates, Conservative lost their momentum. For the past six months, they've built up amazing support and Labour had no chance. But, with the unexpected strength of Clegg and Brown, Cameron stumbled and couldn't even come back in the second debate. Brown and Cameron were just slating each other whilst Clegg minded his own business and came out on top.
Right now, for this country, the best thing, I would say, is a Lib-Lab coalition. I know it sounds crazy and Brown probably only offered it in desperation, but it is an excellent idea. They're both left-wing parties with similar core ideologies. I'll admit, Labour needs to change. They're still running on what Tony Blair did 13 years ago, and that started to go downhill when the war started (which EVERYONE approved of at the time, don't blame Blair for that). But they need to change the record. They're excellent when it comes to economy and help push forward the Lib Dems radical ideas. They know the current situation better than any other party and only have half an idea of what needs changing, so they need the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems, also need Labour - as both Brown and Cameron said, their figures don't quite match up and while it's great that theyy're new and different and all that, they not as accustomed to being in power. Brown and Clegg need to work together, for their own and for the country's benefit. I don't know why Clegg refused when it was he who said they needed to work together. He probably just saw though Brown's desperation or got more confident after the first debate.

So I'm hoping for a win from Lib Dems or Labour. I was worried about Labour, I thought they had lost it. But they proved better than Conservative in the debates and Conservative are no longer the only option. Everyone things Lib Dems are in the middle, but they are, in fact, left-wing. I like them, even if I don't approve of their involvement with the EU and how they want to replace the pound.
I'm hoping my constituency votes for the Lib Dems rather than sticking with Conservative, like they have done for the last ten years, the stuck-up prats.

I'll leave you with this: Despite being biased towards the two main parties, in both the Daily Mail polls and the Guardian polls, Lib Dems came out on top. Maybe Clegg's newfound confidence isn't misplaces after all.

[Underling]

Not particularly important, but should probably get it out the way;

I like the Lib Dems, partly because the other two parties are shit.
I suppose of the two, Labour is slightly less shit.
There, moving on...

I was worried about Labour, I thought they had lost it. But they proved better than Conservative in the debates and Conservative are no longer the only option.

You do realise nearly every poll has placed Gordon Brown in last place for both debates? I mean, I agree with him on some things but he can't debate for shit.

I like them, even if I don't approve of their involvement with the EU and how they want to replace the pound.

I don't think they want to replace the pound, they just won't rule it out for the future, which is only sensible.

Immigration
Again, this seems a weak point with Labour.
I dunno, they do have a shitty track record but I think the points based system Brown mentioned is something that definitely needs to happen.

I'll leave you with this: Despite being biased towards the two main parties, in both the Daily Mail polls and the Guardian polls, Lib Dems came out on top.
Daily Mail has also tampered with and censored some polls that showed the Lib Dems doing too well, dunno why people put up with such a shitty excuse for a newspaper.

Didn't mean to pick on niknnik, but it seemed easier. Should probably have tried to work in an "I agree with niknnik" pun somewhere, though...

[niknnik]

You do realise nearly every poll has placed Gordon Brown in last place for both debates? I mean, I agree with him on some things but he can't debate for shit.


You do have a point here. His debates were entirely aimed at Cameron and his policies seemed like shit :/ But in every Guardian/ICM poll since the debates began, he's been second.


I don't think they want to replace the pound, they just won't rule it out for the future, which is only sensible.

Ah, OK. Either way, I'm not particularly fond of too much involvement with the EU


Daily Mail has also tampered with and censored some polls that showed the Lib Dems doing too well, dunno why people put up with such a shitty excuse for a newspaper.

Didn't mean to pick on niknnik, but it seemed easier. Should probably have tried to work in an "I agree with niknnik" pun somewhere, though...

Yeah, that's why I didn't trust their polls. If the only people who read the Daily Mail are supports of Conservative and Lib Dems, it's clear who's going to win. It's why I wish BBC or even Sky could do a poll, they keep up date in their news reports.

To be honest, I thought I'd be ripped on more than that, so I'm not bothered.

[Fat1Fared]

-Guys how can you still think there is anything good about Labour, there an woeful party and they have been sense their birth 150 years ago, they had one shining age under Atlee and that is it, the problem with labour is, yes they talk about nice ideals and being for working man......etc, but talk is one thing, action is another, like Clegg said, the things Labour have been talking about doing (for 14 years in some cases), they have completely neglected to enact or even worse openly blocked and if you listen to what they say, I am hearing the same rubbish blair came out with when I watched his campain as 5/6 year old, they have had 14 years to do this, so why hasn't it happened? Because they have intended to do and they will

=There is no honour in them and a party which is willing to send information packs to poeple on Canser watch, that they will die under Tory politic's is disgusting (oh and for saying they love NHS, they do not mind taking money from it, sacking nurses and closing hospitals when suits them, they just do not tell us about that)

=And you say Brown knows what he is doing, no he doesn't, he was woeful ecomonist, an even worse Chancellor and as PM he is plain laughable, I mean how can anyone have faith in a man who sells off millions of english (note english,) gold reverses at woefully low time in the stock market, to cover his parties massive loses in the Economy and then tries to buy them back when Gold Market is high again. This is the party which has made that the average person has to 40% of their yearly income in Tax, a completely insane amount which is only needed because of wasteful spending and the worse bit is, they say we need to spend more, NO WE DON'T, you already proved that your willing spend money, but have no clue how to use, like I said above, Labour has thrown billions at the NHS, but it throws around randomally in hope something good will happen, rather than carefully bargeting everything out

=They also lie massively, we were promised a refeum on the Lisbon Treaty, but Labour then just did do it

=There highest politicans should not be sevring me tea, let alone leading me:
Manderslon=A evil snake of a man, who uses his political ties to make money and help his sycophant friends like Saif Gaddafi and Neil Kinnock, while openly blocking anyone who wants to open businesses he cannot control

=Milliband=Labours blued eyed poster boy, who found be involved in charges of corruption but instead being removed like should have, was send off to European council for few years till things now calmed down, and we have him as our Forgin minster, (oh and no, we have woeful Forgin policy, Labour just like to think its good, because allows them sound important when think get involved in issues with china and USA, however most of time, there laughed at, IE Chinese Primair thinking Milliband was waiter, but seriously any Forgin policy which allows English poeple to taken USA for trial when their criminal act, conviction and arrest is all under English jurisdiction is not good policy, especially when we couldn't even stop China executing a mentally disable person for drug running, our Forgin Policy basically comes down to Labour trying to let other countries do what want to make friends with them)

=Harisal Blair=The self proclaim Neo-Feminist, do I need to say more?

so cannot be sued, this is opinion ^_-

=I won't go into politic's themselves more, because did that in first post, But I think the thing I hate about Labour most, is the hypocrisy of their party, how can a party which cuts basically all legal aid, then justify allowing 3 of its disgraced Politians to use Legal Aid to cover their own trail and Charges expenses in regards to get this, convictions of expenses scamming, there using money which should given to those who cannot afford lawyers to defend themselves in court, to pay off the money they stole from tax payer in first place and do not even get me started on the supposed Constitutional Reform act or way they have treated House of Lords

=In short, Labour are disgrace and how many more years of them ruining our economy, ideals and lives do we need before British public will finally learn that just because they say their for common man and that their honourable, doesn't make them so

[niknnik]

OK, first of all, Labour aren't solely aimed at the working class, or as you put it, "nice ideals and being for working man". In the last 13 years, they've been more and more focused on the middle classes and it's from them, as a fact, where they get their most support. Middle classes take up the majority of this country, which is why they have so much support. Yes, Labour were once for the working class, but they're no longer the "socialists" everyone thinks they are.

They do NOT sack nurses and close hospitals for the sake of it. My mum's a nurse and has been for the last 20 years. She's always said that, even if Labour totally mess up, she'd still vote for them for what they've done for the NHS. Any cuts are FOR A REASON. The Tories, in their campaigns, have basically been saying that they won't be as dickish towards the NHS as they once were. That's all, not that they won't still be a bit dickish. When they say "they'll cut the deficit, not the NHS", they're still making cuts to the NHS, just as Labour have done. And you're overlooking the good things Labour have brought about. They've brought up the standards after 2005 sometime where it showed that hygiene was crap. They brought about the donations thing, where you now sign if you DON'T want your body parts to be donated, rather than DO. It goes on. Under Conservative, it really would be worse. Hospitals have been improving over the last few years and you're blind not to notice it.

Brown is a good economist. Do you think he became Chancellor by luck? It's people thinking that he doesn't deserve to be Chancellor that then go on to think that the whole economy break down was his fault. IT WAS NOT. He came to power before the recession, and even then, it's bad timing. Not everything goes according to plan. There's no way whatsoever Darling could've predicted how the economy got worse, just how there's no way we could've predicted the economy would die on us in the first place. And the main point here, is that the Tories would have done the exact same thing were they in power. It might even have been worse, given how they're a withdrawal party, and not as involved as the left-wing ones. I'm not saying Brown's perfect, but he's a damn sight better than Cameron when it comes to the economy. In the years between '97-'05, when Brown was Chancellor, was there a recession? NO.
The economy depends on the current situation. There's now way to control everything. For example, the ash cloud and terminated flights the past week are going to hurt the economy. And who's going to be blamed? Whoever wins the election. It's bound to happen.
The whole spending more is a way to save the economy. Either spend a lot less or a lot more. It's actually against what Labour normally does to tell people to spend more, considering their place on the political spectrum.
Darling's budget plan is by no means the best. I have to say, Clegg's plan seems a lot better and every day, I start to come round a little more to the Lib Dem's way of thinking. But the Conservative plan was no better than Darling's.

Their foreign policy isn't bad, you're using one example. Over the years, foreign relations, primarily in the EU, have got significantly better. Even the German and the French, who have always looked down on Britain, are on terms with us. And it's not being a pushover with the US. The UK and the US have one of the best relations in the world, as two of the most powerful countries in the world. It's called being friendly to allies. Again, it's better than the Conservative's, who are just laughed at. Though, US might get along with them, seeing how Obama is in power.

I have no idea what Harisal Blair is.

Of course they tried to justify the expenses crap. So did the fucking Conservatives. It's not like they were going to say "Yeah, you're right, we were twats. We shouldn't be in power". I want you to burn this into your head: So far, everything Labour has done wrong, the Tories would have done as well. That's why the Lib Dems seem to appealing, because people know Cameron and Brown are as bad as each other, in some cases. But Cameron simply is not fit to be the PM. I don't agree with papers saying he'll be another Thatcher or Major, but there's nothing in his "Change" crap. All he's saying is that he won't do what they did last time or what Labour are doing.
I would happily vote for the Lib Dems. They're not as experienced as Labour, but can see clearly what's wrong. They know what to fix, but don't know how to do it. Labour have no idea what to fix, but they certainly know how to do it, as they keep on stressing, through the economy. To sort out the problems the country currently faces, we need to sort out the economy and so far, Labour is the only one who's recognised that and the only one who's put the majority of their work behind it. Labour, in no way, ruined our economy. They've been in power for 13 years, and 2 years when it goes to crap, people suddenly forget about the previous 10 years? That's bullshit. Labour aren't exactly the best, but they're a damn sight better than Conservative, who see to think supporting the NHS alone will get them to power.
That's why I support the Lib-Lab agreement. Lib Dems + Conservative would never work, but Lib-Lab is ideal. I like the Lib Dems, they're fresh and have a different perspective. But you can't switch from old ideas to new ideas just like that, especially during a recession. A coalition could bring about some remarkable changes, changes even the Tories couldn't think up.

[Underling]

I have no idea what Harisal Blair is.
I assume he's referring to Hazel Blears, although judging by the "Neo-Feminist" comment, I think he means Harriet Harman.

Both are insufferable.

[Fat1Fared]

=Ok first of all, I have no idea why you seem to think I am defending conversative's, when I have said from the I am supporting Lib-Dem's as I have sense i was 5, this is me against Labour, I am meh towards conversative's, if they get in I won't like it, but I know that, at least there not labour,

OK, first of all, Labour aren't solely aimed at the working class, or as you put it, "nice ideals and being for working man". In the last 13 years, they've been more and more focused on the middle classes and it's from them, as a fact, where they get their most support. Middle classes take up the majority of this country, which is why they have so much support. Yes, Labour were once for the working class, but they're no longer the "socialists" everyone thinks they are.


=You misunderstand me, this my point, Labour talk about being the party for the working class and their "safe" seats are all working class cities like newcastle, Nottingham.....etc but they have betrayed those ideals completely


They do NOT sack nurses and close hospitals for the sake of it. My mum's a nurse and has been for the last 20 years. She's always said that, even if Labour totally mess up, she'd still vote for them for what they've done for the NHS. Any cuts are FOR A REASON.


=Well first your Mum shows something which is wrong with Democracy, you don't vote for what they did 40/50 years ago, you vote for the now, sure, Atlee was our best ever Prime Minster (historians placed him there) but that then, this is now and secondly, I do not know where your Mum is working, but I can tell you have had a Grandma who worked in NHS and I have a sister and Mother who both currently work in it and one of them is a PA for a ranking official and they both have nothing good to say about the way Labour have let things go, when you allow Managers to set their own wages, things are bad, and I can give other examples, where labour hired on 12,000 Management level staff at cost of 100,000 each and then a year later sacked 10,000 of them, with redundancy pay of 60,000 each, that is plain incompetence.

=Or in my home town, there was once two hospitals, but closed one down, not a crime in itself, but fact they closed down the city one, so that meant the almost impossible to get to one, was only one left and for many people without a car, they basically left them completely struck with no way to get to their appoints as took many 3 bus rides to get their, which ether couldn't do in their conditions or couldn't afford to do <before say next thing, NHS Trusts are emanation of the state, therefore their actions represent the state


The Tories, in their campaigns, have basically been saying that they won't be as dickish towards the NHS as they once were. That's all, not that they won't still be a bit dickish. When they say "they'll cut the deficit, not the NHS", they're still making cuts to the NHS, just as Labour have done. And you're overlooking the good things Labour have brought about. They've brought up the standards after 2005 sometime where it showed that hygiene was crap.


=What NHS are we on about here, on this site alone I know 5 poeple (self included) who have lost families in last 4 years because of lack of hypiene in NHS, Lord Kildand actually said death and Negligence is to be expected in the NHS, these are not good reports,

=And bringing the rating scheme was a diseater, look at cases of Basildon NHS trusts, the Bolton trust and the Tyneside Trust, all got top ratings by Labours moderators, all found to be in breach of basic hygiene and practise rules by independent investigators

=Then have the Medical database idea, when this goverment spend how many billions against the wishes of doctors to make one single medical data base, which did not even work when finished <facepalm>

=Oh and now they want all our DNA on record, something which has already been ruled against our Human Rights

PS also 2005, how hell did it take them 7 years to start this?


They brought about the donations thing, where you now sign if you DON'T want your body parts to be donated, rather than DO. It goes on. Under Conservative, it really would be worse. Hospitals have been improving over the last few years and you're blind not to notice it.


=Mate, stop reading the self proclaiming labour reports and look at the grim truth, the NHS among many things is in a complete mess under Labour, why because their woeful


Brown is a good economist. Do you think he became Chancellor by luck? It's people thinking that he doesn't deserve to be Chancellor that then go on to think that the whole economy break down was his fault. IT WAS NOT. He came to power before the recession, and even then, it's bad timing. Not everything goes according to plan.


=Mate is a woeful ecomonist, in the same way Blair was a woeful Barrister, that is how they end up in Politic's, they suck at their jobs, Blair was laughing stock in bar, so he went into politic's, can say it worked for him, but I do not care about him, I care about my county having competent leaders and yes this Recession was his fault, why did Germany recover so easily and other European countries as well, when we are still struggling to even get on our feet? (I will answer below, because linked to next point)


There's no way whatsoever Darling could've predicted how the economy got worse, just how there's no way we could've predicted the economy would die on us in the first place.


=Well, at the age of 10, I said this would happen, at the age of 18, I was proven right, however if do not believe that, then look at this way, voluntary groups like CAB and economy watchdog's all were lobbying against Labour's economic polices, why because Labour removed the BANK OF ENGLAND (one of the oldest and most respect economic regulating organisations in world) from control and made deal with the banks that if he gave them freedom to trade, they would give out low rate loans, this created a society where we removed our fundamental ideals of saving money and thinking to future and replaced it with a debt controlled one, that spent-spent-spent, meaning when what was actually a very small bump in the road came along everyone crashed out, because no one had any money to cover themselves (even the banks) and so that is why we ended up as an economic black hole
-This is because their whole ecomonic plan was if everyone is in debt, there easy to control and spending lots, meaning ecomony looks good, but really this was all Pump-Priming and always going to crash out, its just that Labour never expected to last 3 terms and be their when it did


And the main point here, is that the Tories would have done the exact same thing were they in power. It might even have been worse, given how they're a withdrawal party, and not as involved as the left-wing ones. I'm not saying Brown's perfect, but he's a damn sight better than Cameron when it comes to the economy. In the years between '97-'05, when Brown was Chancellor, was there a recession? NO.


=No, brown didn't make our strong economy, Thatcher did, love or hate her, that is a fact, she reformed everything and cut off lost causes like the steel factories, to let business massively recover, now this sucked for the common man yes, but it meant that blair, when he came to power could then use her ground work to make his pump priming plan and lead us to where we are today, which is still struggling in the rest of Europe's slip-stream


The economy depends on the current situation. There's now way to control everything. For example, the ash cloud and terminated flights the past week are going to hurt the economy. And who's going to be blamed? Whoever wins the election. It's bound to happen.


=Of course it doesn't all come down to them, but they must take massive blame in it, aspecially as England is one of the Banking capitals of world,


The whole spending more is a way to save the economy. Either spend a lot less or a lot more. It's actually against what Labour normally does to tell people to spend more, considering their place on the political spectrum.
Darling's budget plan is by no means the best. I have to say, Clegg's plan seems a lot better and every day, I start to come round a little more to the Lib Dem's way of thinking. But the Conservative plan was no better than Darling's.


=OK, maybe this is because your only 16 and so do not remember all this, but trust me, this is what Blair said 14 years ago, it did not work then and even less likely to work now, also why are businesses so against Labour and constantly leaving Britian?
-Because labour suck for them, they tax them through roof and give no help to survive or raise, and only ones which get anything are those who suck up to Manderlson


Their foreign policy isn't bad, you're using one example. Over the years, foreign relations, primarily in the EU, have got significantly better. Even the German and the French, who have always looked down on Britain, are on terms with us. And it's not being a pushover with the US. The UK and the US have one of the best relations in the world, as two of the most powerful countries in the world. It's called being friendly to allies. Again, it's better than the Conservative's, who are just laughed at. Though, US might get along with them, seeing how Obama is in power.


=Ok first, why would Conservatives and Obama get along, this just seems a strange comment to say least?

=And secondly, if French and Germany respect us so much, why did German Prime Minster openly criticise Brown dealings of rescission in Europe and French Prime Minster openly laugh at the pound collapsing so much, that couldn't actually join the Euro if we wanted too, as were simply not equitable enough (part of which comes down to lack of gold we have left, thanks to Brown selling it all)

=Secondly, I bring up Gary McKinnon case, need I say more? (the treaty we signed, that means USA can take our Criticism and convict them, without any way of us stopping them, do we get afforded such regard back? of course not, and he is not only one, just most famous, the fact is, the world looks at us like USA's lapdog, because we are, they say jump, we say how high, its shaming)
-Also why is it our country got sent into a war we openly opposed? Because Blair made a deal that we would get certain rights to oil and USA would lessen the debt we owed them from WW2, did the USA hold up to their deal, did they hell

=Thirdly, it was Blair who devolution of Parliament, which means English money pays for things like Scottish University "free" fees and we still have to listen to the Scottish National Party, which thanks to that, is now an actual government, well done labour

=And no Thatcher wasn't a laughing stock, she did not get name Iron lady for nothing, can you see Labour politician's standing up and fighting the Falklands war to keep colonies which want to remain in Britain (and no not saying I agree with Falklands war, just that showed she was for Britain first), no they would be too busy sucking up to them and forcing ID cards on us <countries hated Thatcher because she actually put Britain first, which is what I want to see, I know you need to have bit of push and pull, probably more than she did, but quintessentially us first, like most other countries leaders do for their people, instead labour are too busy telling everyone how their going to "save the world" <facepalm> save britian first you morons, then poeple may think have some criability in such statment


I have no idea what Harisal Blair is.


-Oh funny, yes, we all know I cannot spell haha, like Underling said, I meant Hazel, (underling both are Neo-Feminists, I just find Hazel more affronting out the two, not sure why, I think its the fact that she has been charged with minor offenses several times and each time said being a politician puts her above the law, which is completely against the whole point of democracy and its having politicians like that, which is why I cannot stand Labour, because they go against everything I believe a parliament and government should stand for)

=though we forgot John Prescott, and David Blunkett, however their so laughable, I almost felt bad saying it

[Fat1Fared]

Of course they tried to justify the expenses crap. So did the fucking Conservatives. It's not like they were going to say "Yeah, you're right, we were twats. We shouldn't be in power". I want you to burn this into your head: So far, everything Labour has done wrong, the Tories would have done as well. That's why the Lib Dems seem to appealing, because people know Cameron and Brown are as bad as each other, in some cases. But Cameron simply is not fit to be the PM. I don't agree with papers saying he'll be another Thatcher or Major, but there's nothing in his "Change" crap. All he's saying is that he won't do what they did last time or what Labour are doing.


=Mate, I do not care that their defending themselves, what I find offensive is that I have to tell cleints that their is no legal aid open to them and so because of Labours lack of defence for home owners, their going to lose their home and not even have a lawyer to defend them, while at it, but 3 politician who are on trail for fraud, then use the system they underfund to pay for their own defence and any costs they will charged by court to back to public, can you really tell me, there nothing wrong with this?


I would happily vote for the Lib Dems. They're not as experienced as Labour, but can see clearly what's wrong. They know what to fix, but don't know how to do it. Labour have no idea what to fix, but they certainly know how to do it, as they keep on stressing, through the economy. To sort out the problems the country currently faces, we need to sort out the economy and so far, Labour is the only one who's recognised that and the only one who's put the majority of their work behind it. Labour, in no way, ruined our economy. They've been in power for 13 years, and 2 years when it goes to crap, people suddenly forget about the previous 10 years? That's bullshit. Labour aren't exactly the best, but they're a damn sight better than Conservative, who see to think supporting the NHS alone will get them to power.


=Do not give that, I have hated labour sense I was 5 and I always will, unless we get a new Atlee, because their sycophant, self-promoting and dishonourable rats, who have been a disgrace sense got to power and anyone who knows politic's will attest to this, it is just only now are the full effects of their failings which range from incompetence all way up to corruption, being seen

-You know why I know about this stuff, because I am a law student, I am member of political society, I am legal-aid voluntary worker for CAB and I am an aspiring politician, so knowing politic's is something I do, and everything about Labour, affronts me

=From Terrorism acts which betray our Human Rights and core ideals of freedom, to way they destroy the NHS and then tell us how great are with it, to way they have let our education system, get so back 25% of secondary school starters are illiterate, to way they have destroyed the house of lords as both our Highest court and their political watch dog, the way they destroyed High Chancellor role, so Judiciary now have no direct lobbying link to Parliament, the way they use Constitutional reform act to give government load more power, which not meant to have, way they entered wars which were completely illegal, the way they make it that average house hold pays around 30-40% of their yearly wage in tax, the way they made so that police force spends all its time writing out papers, rather than policing, the way removed our Assembly rights, the way brought in Control Orders, the way ruined economy, the way they removed English history from history classes, the way they overally control schools, their always involved in scandals, the way they never hold any of their members to account, the way they never gave us our refuem to the Lisbon Treaty (though I would have voted yes, I do not want them making that vote for me) the way they would rather suck up to some South Asian official, than protect my rights as one of their citizens, way use globel warming as political tool to control us, way use terrorism as excuse to remove our rights and hundreds more things, all that they have done with their 14 years in power


That's why I support the Lib-Lab agreement. Lib Dems + Conservative would never work, but Lib-Lab is ideal. I like the Lib Dems, they're fresh and have a different perspective. But you can't switch from old ideas to new ideas just like that, especially during a recession. A coalition could bring about some remarkable changes, changes even the Tories couldn't think up.

=I do not like Coalitions unless Coalitions of necessary like in WW2, because otherwise just like when Labour last allied with Lib-Dems, all do is spend years moaning and nothing gets done, (there is a reason that only twice in our modern history (IE after war of the rose) have we had to use Queens Devolution of Parliament power for a complete failure of parliament and both times, it has come during Coalition Parliaments)

Nik this rant is not actually at you, so much as 10 years of frustrations and anger at what I have seen happen to my county, come out in one post on internet

[niknnik]

OK, I did write out a good five paragraphs or so to that. But after a bit of consideration, I deleted it all.
It's true I don't study politics or Law. I'm a film student, there was no reason for me to take those subjects. My sources of information come from newspapers ranging across the the political spectrum as well as BBC and Sky News, two impartial news sites. I've also looked at parties' manifestos and I've learnt from my friends and family, who all constantly talk about the election.
Those figures you show most likely have opposing figures and facts which support the opposite side, which is why I've refrained from using such facts and figures and aimed solely on main parties' aims.

I wasn't trying to change your mind throughout this, merely defend what I believe. But it's clear you detest Labour. Now, I'm willing to admit that Labour are often wrong. But so are Conservative and so will the Lib Dems. There is no perfect party. I always wanted to choose a party which I thought was best, not only for the country, but for where I live too. I've doubted Labour, but I've doubted the Tories even more. It's true that every day, the Lib Dems make more sense to me and eventually, I'll probably switch over. But from what I've looked at, from the news sources and information I've caught in the last year that I've been interested, Labour made more sense to me.

I live in North-West London, where Labour or the Lib Dems have mostly always been at the top (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm), because it suits us best.

I've voiced my opinions on the parties. Labour are sometimes wrong and Conservative are sometimes right. I have a right to change my mind, just as the parties have their rights to change their policies and change their whole structure. But it's clear to me that you won't ever change your mind, whatever right your given.
It might not seem like it, but I have taken your points in consideration. What you say is true, and it does make me question yourself. It's possible I'll change my mind. But you're so anti-Labour, that I fail to see the point in trying. If it was anyone else, at least it could be like a tennis match, going back and forth, but I honestly don't see that happening, when you're so forcefully against Labour.
I didn't want to be a dick like that, Fared, but there you have it. A crushing defeat on my side.

[Fat1Fared]

-First, just so you understand Nik, like said, that was at Labour not you, and was my opinion, so do not feel this is me trying to crush you into the ground in egotistical debate of who has the better beliefs as in the end this politics’ and beliefs is all it is (belief based on event, but belief nevertheless) and as anyone who knows me, knows, I place very little extrinsic value on belief
=If you feel I am too aggressive a debator for you, fair enough, just way I write these things at times,

-This leads onto my second point, if you wish to convince people of something, do not bother doing it over the internet, I have found the internet is good place to rant your beliefs and have fun-pointless debates, but fundamentally, it is rarely good for anything else, when used in this area or spectrum of thought.

-Thirdly, in politic's there is a joke rule, when looking at party Aims, rather facts, "ask for a double, expect a half"
=Basically it means, they promise a lot, but will not give much, so best to look at what parties have done and are doing, rather than what say doing, because Party’s like Labour specially survive on talking big and fearmonging, but rarely even attempt to come through on that talk and most of the stuff they comes at election time, once they power is safe they go back to ignoring our wants and forgetting their promises, with Conservatives you will get what mostly what told, its just maybe not what you actually want, once know what it really is and Lib Dems, well they have not had enough power in like 40 years to fairly judge, but as the third party, they used their position well to try and fail with lots of wonderful idea's that are all invariability and knowingly blocked by the other powerhouse parties, but fact they tried has made me least want to see what do if in real position

=4th, they is no such thing as impartial news when comes to politics’ lol, maybe less/more bias depending on where look, but always bais there, but this is not to say such information is useless, just not impartial,

=Also telling me there is no perfect party is like telling me, not all religion is bad, evidentially and clearly true and this is why I only made one post about my thoughts and pluses to different parties, as was waiting the never coming rebuttal, and so this is why then put what I see as my rebuttal to pro-labour, and then expected rebuttal back...etc because both know, neither of us are going to come to perfect conclusion, just talk a lot, but meh nothing wrong with that, can still be interesting to see others views, just because I as you put it, detest labour, doesn't mean i do not find it interesting to learn why others don't, just in same way as no one has said what i see as convincing counter point to my lack of faith, no one has made a convincing counter point as to why I should trust labour of their undeviating 14 years of failure

=Next, though this somewhat dilutes what I said in previous parts, I would say be careful about voting, because helps small area, politic’s is really a bigger picture area and though if I followed my own roots Tory’s would be clearly way to go, I honestly believe that the whole will be better served by other parties.

=Finally, you should understand something, I am anti-Blair/Browns labour, not anti-labour, if labour had politians like Clegg, Campbell, K Williams, Cable and dare I say it G Osborne, I would vote them, but alas most of them I wouldn't even vote for if were not coming from view made by last 14 years, not saying all Labour Politicians are detestable in same way not Lib-Dems are good, but in my opinion, most are not the poeple I want running my country, because of their past actions and disregarding believes towards their very important positions
-This all same as you being anti-conservative, I do not expect you to vote them or even if I wanted to convince you to vote them (which do not) do not expect you listen to that, its just our beliefs and interesting to hear others, do not misplace my intentions in this, if you think I did not find any of what you wrote or believe interesting, you are wrong, cannot say agree with most of it, but interesting to read and that is basically why I do this, I like seeing other peoples opinions and good way to draw them out, is too debate them, (which helped if disagree with them)

[niknnik]

You're just a bigoted woman

[Change of Heart]

Hey Hey what's all these eh?

everyone has a right to express an opinion seems this debate has gotten fiery whilst I was away. I'm pleased to see everyone's making an effort, it's going to be a close election.

the point of this election is to go with whichever you feel is best for the job...and if you vote passionately with your heart always remember your brain is meant to compensate for any illusions the politicians may pull over your eyes.

please keep it clean and fair no name calling, it's childish. Niknnik I shall translate the term bigot in the Labour Party linguistics book, "a bigot is a person who votes on issues that are dear to them such as immigration and the economy" aka all of us. We're all bigots according to the Prime Minister. I like to think we're a sensible people. You each have decent points I think both of you are very intelligent people, but even if you disagree I say, let bygones be bygones and shake hands well...as far as you can online I trust. I mean look at Tony Benn and Enoch Powell, both complete opposite of the spectrum, incredibly intelligent and terrific orators, and disagreed much of the time but they were very close allies and friends at one point.



I think when you vote you need to think these questions over,

are we better off since 1997?

do I feel safe and secure in public or even in my own home?

am I monetarily sound?

do I recognise my country any longer in terms of culture or custom?

am I more free or do I feel a loss of liberty?

are my country's institutions working at an efficient rate or overloaded?

militarily are we defended decently and properly prepared?

am I getting value for money?

do I feel our health and education system are faring better or worse?

[niknnik]

The bigoted woman thing was a joke, in reference to what Brown said on his campaign the other day.

[Change of Heart]

ah yes sorry it's hard to read people's feelings online afterall I got it misconstrued. Yeah I think that was definitely a vote loser what Brown said though on some you tube comments it astonished me some people agreed with him and would vote for him because of that....To me, that's scarily dumbocracy instead of democracy at work. I hope people don't get confused by a General Election and the X Factor we don't need a Jedward result in power.

[niknnik]

I don't think it was that people supported him in what he said, it's just that they understood why he did it and appreciate that they can see him being truthful.
It actually makes me feel a bit better that not everybody is hating him for it, I feel it's a sign that things are changing. If people can see that party leaders are actually people and not just lying all the time, it would put a little more trust into the system and into their parties. I'm not saying what Brown did was right, but the public's reaction to it could've been much worse a much bigger deal.

[Change of Heart]

Well, it's election day! I've been out in force with the Conservatives in my constituency, we're hoping we may win but like everyone unfortunately we'll have to keep awaiting the result! can't wait. Good luck to any one else with other party affiliations, in your own endeavours.

[xHannahx]

Monster Raving Loony Party! :thatface:

[Fat1Fared]

Damn you british Public, you had a chance to finally chance this county and what do, you vote same bloody parties you always vote, this why democracy doesn't work -_-

[niknnik]

It's a hung parliament. If you take into account the seats and how few people really support the Lib Dems because Labour and the Tories get the most coverage, then this is actually the best result the Lib Dems could've got.

There's still 55 seats left and so Conservative aren't going to win. Both them and Labour will probably try to make a deal with the Lib Dems now. I'm hoping a Lib-Lab agreement does form here, especially as Conservative got defensive when questioned about a coalition this morning.

[Fat1Fared]

-Mate, it is not failure of Lib-Dem's, this was in a sorrowful a success for them, as at first looked like they lose all their seats and so to get more votes/only lose 7 seats is not bad thing, the depressing part is that 30% of my poeple who voted still think labour are appectable party and one can only ask, what labour need to do, before poeple will realise what they really are

=PS Way to go Clegg by sticking two fingers up at Labour's vain attempt to try and keep power despite losing the vote, the reason we have conventions and not constitutions is so that no party claim right to leadership on rights of prossess

=I think what this vote proves is just how ineffective first past post is in modern age, that a the conversatives got more support than any of blair's labour and yet still gain barely any seat power compared to that, shows it doesn't work and disconnects poeple, oh and it shows another corruption of labour by enlarging all the lib-dem and conversative berua's while making theirs smaller, creating more seats for themselves

With Lib-Dems

=Problem is 3 things:-

1=Half the swing voters got cold feet and tactically voted other parties to block their foe parties
2=Lots of non-voters from before realised the parties they took for granted in terms of winning may lose without them and finally got off asses and voted
3=Finally the average lib-dem supporter is a young educated person IE students....etc and most of these are worse for actually making vote, so 90% of those would have voted, simply didn't vote again <sigh>

[Change of Heart]

Yes I'm pleased with the Tory ascendancy! my constituency turned blue since 1997! my hard work paid off! but at the last minute we get a jedward result (hung parliament) that is a fault of democracy, the public are indecisive. Now it's up to the leaders...Brown trying to Woo Clegg... Clegg calling Cameron.... excuse my language it hilariously sounds like they're dating each other...


btw xHannahx I like your thinking! I always check the MRLP, some of their policies actually sound excellent at times plus humour is a great weapon.

[niknnik]

Actually, Fared, I was specifically saying it wasn't a failure of the Lib Dems - it's because of their rise in popularity that there even is a hung parliament.

I'm not surprised Labour tried to form a deal. The Lib Dems didn't exactly turn them down as much as they said that the Tories should get the first go at making a deal, because they got the most votes and seats. This morning, Conservative were defensive and didn't want to talk about a coalition, as if they honestly believed they would gain the majority. It doesn't sound like Conservative to form a coalition, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. After all, they do need the Lib Dems now. Most likely, they're searching for a way to get in power without resorting to a coalition, just like Labour were trying to get with the Lib Dems after the first TV debate.

I don't see how this is a failure of the First Past the Post System, though. Sure, the amount of votes and seats are disproportionate, but, at the end of the day, the the party with the most votes got the most seats, the party with the second most votes got the second most seats and the party with the third most votes got the third most seats. Of course the system isn't perfect, but neither is Proportional Representation.

I don't know what to think, really. I'd like to see the Lib Dems get in power, they've got some fresh ideas. But the only way they'd get into power is through a coalition, and I'd much rather that be with another left-wing party (even if they have moved away from their basic ideals) than with a right-wing party who favour large businesses.
I think Conservative will end up making the deal the Lib Dems so badly want. Hopefully, Labour will start to realise a few things about themselves. Just a shame Conservative won't.

Also, the Conservatives won a landslide victory over Labour in my constituency, though I'm not surprised, most of Northern London is Conservative, judging by the map. Although, Labour got ten more seats in London than Conservative, which I found surprising.

[niknnik]

Also, referring to your comment last night, Fared - how does nobody voting for Lib Dems show democracy doesn't work?

[Fat1Fared]

Also, referring to your comment last night, Fared - how does nobody voting for Lib Dems show democracy doesn't work?

Nik, please look at what I wrote, I was never on about lack of lib dem votes which is what I was saying to you earlier, it the fact poeple still vote labour and this convinces me, that labour can say or do as they wish and poeple will still vote them, why, I cannot understand,

PS also watch the news, cameron has already offered the lib-dem's massive alliance and I say kudos to him for it, shows he realises the bigger picture here, though will be interesting to see what deal is brokered as he knows that cannot give away more than his party is willing to give, but clegg won't accept less than actually reform of voting system.
=also the failing of first past post is there for all to see, and that is that coversatives have more votes than labour did in blair's second election (even if do it on % rather numbers) and yet they have lot less seats because of the woefully bad way the voting burea's are set out, IE I registered to vote in my parsents town, rather than my uni city, why?
=Because my vote here is worth double that of my vote back in uni city, which shows just why our system needs to revamping (even labour are saying that, though that is just because vainly think could be way to save themselves and intruth have been blocking this sense got to power -_-)

-And no I wasn't amazed brown offered a coalition, but he sure needs to realise that his position is unattrainable now and if he keeps power, it could break everything, the sad thing is out, of the Millibrand brothers, ball and him, Brown is one i think is most acceptable as leader of labour, and that is why I cannot suppot labour

=hearts this is, because of Lib-Dem's amazing hold against some of your most contested area's, this has left the weakest of the big three with the strongest position, because they now know they can make or break the next goverment, but this interestingly comes at a massive price, as they know what choice they make, could make or break them as party, if they take tories offer, and it amazingly works, then they could finaly prove their ready for big time again, but if it fails then could end up looking like the breakers of uncertain time
=If they take labours offer, then they know they could make this a 50-50 parlinment and stop lot of coversatives more questionable ideals <which mean bargining tools> but also know that the public is on whole massively against another labour goverment and this would make them look like trying to prop up and block voter right as well as they know this would allow nothing to get done and make it like their going back on their words

[niknnik]

Nik, please look at what I wrote, I was never on about lack of lib dem votes which is what I was saying to you earlier, it the fact poeple still vote labour and this convinces me, that labour can say or do as they wish and poeple will still vote them, why, I cannot understand,


Before you read on, just let me say that over the last week or so, I've lost my faith in most parties and don't really know which one I believe in any more. I'm saying this so you don't think I'm writing from a pro-Labour point of view, as before - I'm writing from an as unbiased view as possible. Bear that in mind.

People vote Labour because they support them. They don't feel that "old politics" isn't working and that. They're voting for parties that they feel are right for them.
You keep on going on about how Labour are terrible and Conservative are just a bit worse, as if everyone is blinded except for those who "realise" that the Lib Dems are the best choice. You need to realise yourself that your ideas may be correct. I'm saying this neither as a Labour supporter, nor as a Conservative or Lib Dem. I'm just stating a fact here - you need to accept that maybe what you think about the Labour party is wrong. I'm not saying it is, but you need to accept the possibility as well as the possibility that other people might actually know what they're doing when they're voting for these parties. Some people who are part of the 8 million of those who voted for Labour (and 10 million who voted for the Tories) do know what they're talking about.
It's not about Labour saying or doing as they wish and people ignoring it, otherwise there'd be no opposition. It's about people looking past that and to see what they feel is right. This applies to all other parties as well.


PS also watch the news, cameron has already offered the lib-dem's massive alliance and I say kudos to him for it, shows he realises the bigger picture here, though will be interesting to see what deal is brokered as he knows that cannot give away more than his party is willing to give, but clegg won't accept less than actually reform of voting system.


I must've missed that, I've been a bit slow in the news today.


=also the failing of first past post is there for all to see, and that is that coversatives have more votes than labour did in blair's second election (even if do it on % rather numbers) and yet they have lot less seats because of the woefully bad way the voting burea's are set out, IE I registered to vote in my parsents town, rather than my uni city, why?
=Because my vote here is worth double that of my vote back in uni city, which shows just why our system needs to revamping (even labour are saying that, though that is just because vainly think could be way to save themselves and intruth have been blocking this sense got to power -_-)

The only problem is that the only other choice is Proportional Representaion, and that just leads to more coalitions (just look at the Weimar Republic, 1919-1932). Both systems have flaws in them and even if we did use PR instead of FPTP, we'd most likely still end up with a coalition government because no party has over half the votes. Both systems have good and bad points, I don't see the need to blame a party's misfortune on the voting system.


-And no I wasn't amazed brown offered a coalition, but he sure needs to realise that his position is unattrainable now and if he keeps power, it could break everything, the sad thing is out, of the Millibrand brothers, ball and him, Brown is one i think is most acceptable as leader of labour, and that is why I cannot suppot labour

I think you need to accept that Labour can do some good things. In my view, Conservative would have done just as bad as they had and the Lib Dems too. I'm not getting into this again, but being narrow-minded never helped anyone.


=hearts this is, because of Lib-Dem's amazing hold against some of your most contested area's, this has left the weakest of the big three with the strongest position, because they now know they can make or break the next goverment, but this interestingly comes at a massive price, as they know what choice they make, could make or break them as party, if they take tories offer, and it amazingly works, then they could finaly prove their ready for big time again, but if it fails then could end up looking like the breakers of uncertain time
=If they take labours offer, then they know they could make this a 50-50 parlinment and stop lot of coversatives more questionable ideals <which mean bargining tools> but also know that the public is on whole massively against another labour goverment and this would make them look like trying to prop up and block voter right as well as they know this would allow nothing to get done and make it like their going back on their words

I think all the party's need to rethink what they're doing. Labour have moved away from their original aims and are clawing desperately. The Lib Dems have their heads in the clouds and their numbers don't always add up - public relations will get you anywhere, it seems. And the Tories are as bad as Labour, but much more petty. they keep talking about change and how they want a new Britain, but they're promising the same number of things as Labour and the Lib Dems.
I understand why you support the Lib Dems, Fared. I think your apparent hatred of Labour is a little misplaced, but I do see where you're coming from. I'm no longer in support of any of the parties because, at the end of the day, they're as bad as each other. Labour always made more sense to me, but they're desperate now and I don't want to support a party that can't push on through.

Finally,
the public is on whole massively against another labour goverment
Is that why they got 8 million votes and why they have at least 2 million more supporters than the Lib Dems? The public is much more in support of Labour than you think, and they're more clear-headed than you think.

[Fat1Fared]

=Nik, lets not make this personal ^_^ as in end like said before this belief and yes I am massively passionate about these things, but outside these debates within this page, nothing I say here has any effect on anything, whether it be my opinion of you as, my opinion of the world or you as a person, the the reality of the world

=though you need to stop making massive assumptions about my beliefs as doing that gets no one anywhere and that is also one of reasons democracy fails, poeple make board assumptions about parties and ideals rather than understanding most of it.

=if you look, you see I dislike modern labour, not labour and their is massive different between the two and I am neutral to conversatives in that i don't disagree with everything they believe, I don't agree with it all ether

=You will also see, there is a lot a disagree with on lib-dem's, but their are many things I agree, apsecially their core ideals and the fact their more open and actually try to put their ideals into practise

=As for my view on labour, I don't just use media to gain my opinion, i use "fact," poeple I know, subjects I learn and jobs/things I am involved in and sadly Labour has done very badly on many fronts, I gave you hard and plain facts, which you for whatever reason did not dispute and that is your right, but right now their the only actually fronts we have on the table and it looks very bad for labour, now for where labour got what they did, you only have to look where labours votes came from,
=Massive areas of Scotland=Poeple who hate conversatives and this was worsens by thatcher days, plus they see the conversatives as the english party, if we remove scotland, then we remove a 5th of their support in terms of sets and almost 3rd actual votes
=Then the massive industiral towns and areas with unemployment, where labour can scare mogonor the votes, saying their only ones who will protect these poeple (which is ironic when as someone who works in that area, I can say that labour have made massive cuts to many of these poeple's benefits and in fact apart from 3 child plus familes, who are unemployed, their plans will be worsth for these poeple in terms of payment)
=Finally, there is lot of places where Lib-Dem's only just lost out and merely small swing other way would have given them it, and I bet that lot of those votes were cold feet

=4th things:=
1=Your putting things in my mouth again, i never said PR votes, I said reform, as yet, I am not sure which is better, but first past post is not it,do not get me wrong here, 150 years ago when had 2 parties and about 10 voters, then it was very clever system and well ahead of its time, but world has changed and these things have to change with it (also note, when comes to our system, on whole, I am very conversative generally and dislike the changes being made, but this one i think needs it as it is the cord to the whole system and if this is defective, then everything fails)
2=I did massive essay on our voting system and good grade in it, so I know a lot about first past post voting
3=comparing the pre-ww2 german system to modern day britian is pain stupid, that is all I can call it, sorry if too blunt for you, but it is
4=I am not fan of hung parliments, but I would take them, if meant that didn't end with votes like my home town where got labour=14.500 conversative=14.250 and lib dem=12.300, oh where dispite only have 250 votes more, labour take everything -_-

=I said Labour did a few goods things, but very few of them came under this goverment and no where near enough to make up for their failings and like I kept saying too you, you never compare goverments of past to ones of the modern day, comparing brown and blair labour to Atlee labour gives them unfair credit, in same way, comparing cameron conversative to thetchers conversative is unfair,
-And that is what you need to accept, just because I am massively anti-labour of today, doesn't make me anti-labour completely and calling me narrow minded without putting anything to support yourself (unlike me) is normally the last stand of man who has no real defense for his beleifs and just doesn't want to admit it, so tries to throw others off their beleifs by calling them narrow minded, if my beleifs don't sit well you or anyone else, well I am sorry, but these are my beleifs as yours are yours, if you want to rebutt mine, fair enough, but right now you have given no substantive reason, other than saying 8 million poeple voted labour, so must be good idea, well millions of poeple believe lots of other things, doesn't make them right, unless their something to back their beleif up, i have put reasons labour have failed and why I believe it is sad day for our democracy that poeple still vote them,

=I think maybe this bit is where the problem between us comes from, yes I call myself lib-dem, and they will be the party, I will join (already working on being an assisstent to one of my canidates) but I would change my views, if the poeple and politic's change as in the end I my political aims are not set in any one party, and take bits from them all, just I trust lib dem's more and know what going get with conversatives, labour, lost my support 10 years ago, when they could have easily gained it

=I am not supporting lib-dem goverment right now, as they did not get in, yes, I wish they had, but now they haven't as knew they wouldn't, I want it is best for whole and just know that Nick Clegg would lose everything if he saves labour and makes a balanced co-op oppsition rather strong proaposition

=FInally, yes, sadly I have very little faith in the electate right now, but then when look at just what we could have done with this vote and then what we did, it won't give you any faith in the electate

=As for own faith in parties, if want lose all faith, then it won't help anyone, if this past 13 years proved anything, it was than non-votes help no one but politians in power and no matter who they are, that is not a good thing, in fact I think half the reason labour came out like they did, was because they began realise very quickly the voters would going to very hard to raises out of this slump which meant they could do lot of what they want and no one would stop them

[greymagick711]

*eek, not from UK speaking here*

But I just wanted to say this thread is AWESOME and very informative. Such long and organized replies, too! I never knew so much about your political system nor of it's strengths and weaknesses until now.

It seems whatever you guys choose, it'll turn out alright.

m'kay, bye. :)

[Underling]

Have you guys seen Kay Burley strike her latest blow for JOURNALISTIC EXCELLENCE?

Fucking hilarious.

[niknnik]

WELL THIS SURE WAS INTERESTING

It didn't seem that negotiations with the Lib Dems failed as such, more that the Lib Dems were always going to go with Conservative. As Ed Balls said, there were differences between Clegg and Brown, and, despite how well the parties got on, it became progressively clear that Clegg would choose the Tories.

It was very clever what Brown did. By quitting, he secured Labour's support as well as make all media reports criticising Labour about him, rather than his party. No doubt, people will see him as an excellent PM now.

I guess I'm not too surprised with the outcome. I'm more surprised at how it came about. It was very abrupt, what Brown did.

As for the Conservatives... Well, look forward to EMA cuts, abolition of teaching assistants and everything becoming privatised.
On the plus side, Cameron should be able to sort out this shit with the EU. I guess that's the one advantage of being a right-wing party.
I look forward to seeing what he does, for better or for worse.

[Underling]

Well, look forward to EMA cuts

DAMN RIGHT I WILL

I WAS ONE YEAR TOO OLD FOR THAT SHIT

FUCKING MOOCHING CUNTS, GETTING PAID TO DO SHIT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO

[Underling]

Man, this is turning out quite nicely.

[niknnik]

DAMN RIGHT I WILL

I WAS ONE YEAR TOO OLD FOR THAT SHIT

FUCKING MOOCHING CUNTS, GETTING PAID TO DO SHIT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO

lol I don't get EMA, but a few friends rely on it. One friend has a single parent who kicks him out of his house almost every week. You'd be surprised how many people really need EMA.

Anyhoo, I've been keeping up with this http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/11/general-election-2010-live-blog

[Change of Heart]

I see that Cameron made a coalition with Clegg. It's an interesting move, I think it's realistic, despite being right wing myself. Those who called for minority tory government should know no progress would've been made. The problem is some sacrifices will be made. Even now there's a ruckus caused by Clegg's Tax pledge, I'm sorry what happened to working together, a national interest, discussing first? Obviously LibDems will milk this for all it's worth not to offend anyone. I agreed with much that the coalition said they would do, except for House of Lords Reform.

hmm well I understand about the needs to help the impoverished in their education, I do. But, kids ought to go to school because they want to learn, not to be bribed or worse. My school actually had a contest saying whoever attended classes the most would get an iPod as a prize. That's terrible, to peruade kids with consumer materialism to get them to attend and engage in intellectual fulfillment. It's very sad to me, to see our schools in such a state. No respect or authority with teachers, tons of bullying, and bureaucracy. On my view in education I want to see the following things:

-More powers given to headteachers to restore authority
-Smaller Class Sizes for teachers to control better
-Teachers trained in different learning techniques like visual, hands on, auditory (e.g. I find hands-on activities help kids learn for themselves than a lecture).
-Also teachers need to embrace a more positive and encouraging outlook and to essentially engage their pupils into gaining confidence to speak out.
-Return the PTA to a place of influence
-Crackdown on Bullying
-Introduce counselling into schools to combat personal problems or low self esteem
-Introduce a system of Special Education in each subject so each class has pupils who learn at their own pace, (e.g. a slower paced maths class for kids who don't understand it).
-the following classes are needed in my opinion: Economics at GCSE level so pupils are financially secure in their future, a class on manners and proper behaviour for those whose parents aren't teaching them the basics to behave in society, and a class on Britain and Identity.
-Review on EMA on whether to cut and how abused it is
-Review of Examinations and Exam Stress

does anyone agree?

as for Privatisation, I think under the Thatcher and Major it was needed, I don't think it's needed for now. It shouldn't be reversed though, but we need to get it into the heads of CEOs that they are responsible for their products and managing them. Afterall individual responsibility should work on both sides rich and poor.

[AdjacentOrigin]

I'm not too informed in British politics but I'm glad they had a change in leadership, albeit a minority government (just like Harper here in Canada). I hope David Cameron best. I'm liberal in terms of political stance but Brown and Blair have been pretty ineffective during their tenures. It is good to have moderate conservatives and progressives in charge. Cameron's policies are good for the economy from what I understand but I disagree with his social platform. Clegg's there to counterbalance that I suppose.

At least they're not far right Republicans.

[FluffyFTW]

It's a shame EMA is going to be scrapped. I did benefit from the grant; without the money I wouldn't have been able to pay for food, transport and my tuition fee for university. I was unemployed due to the lack of job opportunities back then, so I was really grateful for having extra financial support from the state during my studies.

So yeah, many students are going to suffer significantly without it.