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#1
04-27-2011
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Elitist Thread for Elitists Such as Myself*
*Not really, although we should have a group or something.
What I actually want to talk about is far more serious. Its a question that has been on my mind for a while now. That question is: Do you think a college education is still worth the time and effort it takes to obtain it? I keep reading news articles about the debt crisis in the United States and it seems that student load debt has surpassed credit card debt as the major source of debt owed by Americans. Certainly an education is a good investment in a person's future, but one has to wonder if would be better to just go to work right after high school and avoid being saddled with a major debt burden before you've even landed a job. I have two reasons for posting this thread. First is that I read a cracked article about this very subject. Second is that I have some personal experience in this area. I went to a private university which was quite expensive. Although most of it was paid for through various scholarships, I still racked up a pretty hefty debt burden. I majored in the hard sciences so I'm in better shape than most, but I keep hearing about people who were English, psychology, and communications majors stuck with a degree that isn't worth the paper its printed on. So is college worth it? With the job market shrinking, it isn't guaranteed you'll find work even with a degree. So if you're going to be unemployed or working an entry level position anyway, wouldn't you be better off without the debt? 
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#2
04-27-2011
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Well, I don't know much about how it works in Americaland, but we don't really have this problem here due to HECS-HELP.
That is, the government pays for your tuition fees, which you then pay back over time once you earn more than a specific amount. I don't know if that's just another name for your student loans, but I don't think we have too many problems with it here. I could just have not heard of them, of course.
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#4
04-27-2011
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I feel that such throwaway majors waste resources which could be better spent on much nobler pursuits, such as the sciences, which actually contribute to a university's prestige. In fact, ground-breaking scientific research paves the way for government investment and subsidies (which helps take care of the funding issue). Not to mention the fact that scientific research has the potential to change the world and save lives (e.g. Biotechnology didn't come out of a thin air, it all started as research at a university lab; today, bio-engineered agriculture saves millions of lives). On the other hand, arts gave us Shakespeare. Which, last time I checked, didn't cure cancer. Last edited by OverMind; 04-27-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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#5
04-27-2011
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I'm tempted to agree with OverMind, completely.
Personally I'm in year two of undergraduate school, pursuing a Mathematics Major, Business Administration Minor, and History Minor. I'm hoping outright choosing Mathematics will give me a step up on others who would pursue graduate school. Failing that, my minor in Business Administration would look good on a resume pretty much anywhere... My father's a saint. He's paying for everything, including the loans. He only asks that I pay him back exactly half of what he pays down when I manage to afford the whole mess. That being said, I go to a school in Vermont, which has the highest tuition rates in the country. This is why I'm going to be transferring. I did the math. It would actually cost me less to completely start over in a certain Florida school than to complete the next two years of this school, so whether credits transfer in large numbers or not is not of large consequence to me. I dislike that I'm relying on my dad, but then again, there really aren't any jobs anywhere around me (With me being 3 minutes from a high school, and jobs being handed out to high school kids because their parents have connections, due to them having lived here a long time and me having not), and if I'm working a heavy courseload, the only job that would even be feasible would be a summer job, which I plan on getting in Florida to help fund some of my college explorations. I don't know where I'm going to go with a major in Mathematics other than graduate school, so I've started to try much harder in school. Any graduate school is good enough for me; I'm not looking to be an elite, but just secure a decent future. So few people go to college for things like Mathematics, Physics, and other math-related things that I'm hoping it will give me an edge over those puny English majors. That being said, my dad is also going to be nice enough to let me live with them and not pay for any sort of high rent, so I can save up money after school, enough to buy my own home. I figure, altogether, this will make my credit score look good: Guy pays off college debts, technically, and manages to buy his own house by the time he's 30. He makes roughly in the avenue of 100k/year, and he has no outstanding credit card debts. Now if only I could make this fairy tale a reality... sigh
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#6
04-27-2011
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#7
04-27-2011
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...And because of a demonic little thing called the 'green initiative fee', which translated means:
I give the college $40. ... I have to pick up the college's garbage. ... ...Yeah...
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#8
04-27-2011
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I'm sort of a dick, as noted in previous threads in this forum, so I go out of my way and get these refunds out of principle. Not because I need the money, but because it's my way of protesting such injustices. I will not be gouged without a fight. So, there's an environmentalist club which apparently everyone pays to in their tuition ... their cause is environment-related or something. To get my $5 back, I needed to go to their departmental office, write a statement and sign it explaining why I want the refund, and also provide a financial statement. All the while, the artsy-doucheboner I'm talking to is trying to convince me that the group has a just cause and even handed me a pamphlet trying to indoctrinate me into their cultist beliefs. They almost had me convinced, until I realized that there were like 5 iMacs in the room and the dude was drinking something from Starbucks. Right after, I went and got my $1 refund for my school's Refugee Assistance program. Apparently, the money was supposed to go towards helping someone from a war-torn, third-world country who probably lost his/her family attain refugee status and study abroad at my university. After I got the refund, the money went towards the vending machine and the Get-a-Soda-for-OverMind fund which, I feel, was a much more charitable cause. Man, I can't believe universities can get away with this.
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#9
04-27-2011
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Now that your bit of satire is over...
I'm not joking about where it goes to. It goes to free shirts, backpacks, and other useless items they give to students on day one... and of course tricking them into thinking they're doing something good by doing the janitors' jobs on day one... for SOME reason. I mean, they COULD allocate that money in the science department to find REAL technology to counteract 'climate change', but... that's just me. For the 'helping others' thing, that's Soundings, very indirectly. Leftists present why capitalism is bad, we have to pay for tickets to several events through the semester, and they either pocket the money, or very rarely, donate 100% of the profits to some third-world country.
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#10
04-27-2011
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And I totally despise the giveaways and other wasted endeavors which you referenced. Apparently, broken and obsolete lab equipment weighs less on a scale in comparison to funding our football team (which always loses, by the way).
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#11
04-27-2011
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#14
04-28-2011
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This is above me.
(Also that you guys are too smart for me to say something, even in agreement. I'm going to TAFE to do an advanced engineering diploma because of 2 things. 1. Uni fees are very expensive (even if I do live in australia and we have those HECS fees) 2. I didn't get a good enough mark to get into uni. This means that I am saving A LOT of money, which all goes to the Get-A-Spearmint-Flavoured-Milk-For-Jotenks-Everyday fund. In answer to your actual question killshot, uni is worth it, but only if you study a real subject that is math, science or real life applicable. So no arts courses. (But what would I know, I don't even go to uni.)
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#15
04-28-2011
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Ok, I going to deal with my post in 3 parts
A: Different Courses=There are many courses out there which are a waste of time IE the infamous David Beckham o0.........and however much it pains me to say, I do sadly put things like creative arts under this bracket. Art is something so subjective that to standardise it, demeans it, so think better spending time getting self known as serious artist. However before you science boys start completely downing art degrees, actually there are many art degree's which are very useful, yes they are specialised, but still useful....IE fashion design, my friend graduated few years ago with this degree, she now works on some very large films, designing customs and having great time living in london while making more money than any of us ever will. So I think there is depends on the degree and what you want out of said degree. B.Money=Do not be fooled, your university is very rich and the reason they do art degree's is because only make them richer. -As for charity side=meh, that dealt by the student union in UK, which whole different bowl of fish -As for fee's, well in UK, we don't dress them up in some fancy name, we call them what they are....student loans, now I have interesting view on student loans, in that I don't mind paying for my degree (I do mind paying for a-holes in Scotland and Isle of Man, to have free degrees, but again another story) and I actually do not mind, they put fee's up, what annoys me is that working in politic's, I know the reason we pay fee's is because politician's don't have balls to cap uni places here, so instead somehow thought making it so that no one could afford it was better idea.....hmmm wonder why that ended in riots you mugs. This leads onto my final point C.Is it worth it=In short.......ask me in 2 months when know if got 2-1 (B) or 2-2 (C). The problem is that in last 20 years we have developed the idea that a degree is a right, not a privilege, this is embodied by idiots like blair saying "I want 50% of our nation to hold a degree, what a twat. Oh great blair, what will we do when our nation can support 25% of those people with degree level jobs -_-. =Our parents generation made many f-ups for us, but this was the worst, because it means, while in my stepfathers day, coming out with 2-2 in chimesty was enough to build a very good career upon, now a 2-2, is not worth paper it is written on. Getting a 2-2 takes work, not brilliance, so if millions have it, actually becomes a hindrance because makes look like you ain't that great. Take, law for instance, there are currently 90 thousand law students in UK, 10,000 contracts, now even if take out ones who do not go into law, maths doesn't work out there. =This is only exacerbated by fact, uni's become more interested in getting as many students as can how do this, make self look like good uni, how do this, get more 2-1 (B) students, how do this, they standardised everything. It is no longer show me your innate brilliance, it is now, show your ability to repeat after me in less words -_-, so even a 2-1 is no longer considered impressive by most employers, merely acceptable. This is how I got binned in piece of coursework for doing two much research, but my friend who plagised the lecture got 2-1 (B) despite only spending 1 night on the work. I wanted an first and because of that, ended up with D, I should have just gone for the B, how degrading to the whole affair is this sardonic joke -_-. -That D has basically ruined my whole average and means I am now praying that my dissertation is lot more fantastic than I think it is, because otherwise I am fucked royally and going to end up with 2-2, which may as well be a very expensive book mark, for all the good it will do me. But even if I get a 2-1 (B) my position is not safe as 45,000 other law students will be coming out with 2-1's as well, oh yay. So now I am apart of the masses mundane masses. How ironic if I was studying 20 years, a 2-2 in law would be amazing and I probably get 2-1 anyway, because wouldn't be told off for having too much research. Do you see problem here? We have too many students full-stop and this has led to natural depreciation in value of degrees while has been made worse by degree's being made fundamentally easier, well unless you are muppet like me who takes pride in his knowledge, then your screwed like pig. We have been fed a lie that degree's equal money, no they don't, 90% of law students need to do some research to realise 90% of lawyers are very poor people with very stressful jobs, the only career where level of education and work to pay ratio is worse, is being a teacher. This occurs, because uni's make unemployment go down and pump pimping go up, politician's once again wistfully bury their heads to obvious flaws. =To conclude, killshot, no is not worth it, we get taxed higher, get more stressful jobs, we are degraded by rest of society, apart of unneed mass, rather than specialises and our fee's may as well be tax of their own. =It is good thing I want a career in law for love of law or my life would be even more depressing right now Last edited by Fat1Fared; 04-28-2011 at 04:56 AM.
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#16
04-28-2011
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Is there anyone without a science/law degree that could weigh in on this?
Speaking of the arts wasting university resources, what does everyone think about non-liberal arts majors having to take liberal arts courses and vice-versa? I had to take an art credit to graduate, but luckily a new course opened up that semester that would allow science majors to meet that requirement without wasting too much of our time. It was a drawing class where we learned to draw anatomical diagrams. It was taught in tandem by the anatomy professor and art professor which each one clearly knowing nothing about the other subject. Other non-science classes I had to take were European literature, (which I made an A in despite not reading any of the required books. Seriously, what is the point of an English degree?) an online basic computer skills class which consisted of hammering the "next" button until the computer realized you're not 60 and have been able to use a computer since you could walk on your own, and an exit level writing/speaking class all university graduates have to pass. After hearing some presentations given by my classmates, I'm surprised they let them out of high school let alone college. So do these extra classes make people more well rounded, or is it just a waste of everyone's time?
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#17
04-28-2011
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1. Our football team sucks really hard, but the reason why they fund for it is because when we fund for athletics, it gives the school more money to fund for academic programs as well as the athletic programs. So I guess they get more money out of it... 2. Michigan universities have to cut spending due to the governor cutting education funds in general. The only artsy programs that are getting more money are Creative Writing and Japanese Language and Literature. The other 5 programs are tech/science programs. My university is also renovating the science building so that its technology is up-to-date. Even though I graduated with an artsy major, I still believe that science and technology majors are absolutely necessary. I didn't major in a science because I don't have the right brain for it. *shrug* Did I need a creative writing degree in order to write a book or two? Well, perhaps, perhaps not. It certainly has improved my writing drastically, and it has helped me think critically about the kinds of things I should be writing after I graduate, but even though my debt is pretty big, I do not regret my education and my time in university. It's been a time for major personal growth as well as intellectual growth. The problem with trying to find a job right after high school is that more and more jobs require college degrees. If I wanted to apply for a job, I'd be having an extremely hard time finding a good full-time job that didn't require a college degree, especially in Michigan's current crappy economy. I tried to find a summer job right out of high school but I found nothing. During my college years, I didn't just go to school - I've had a work study job in a department office. I have 4 years of clerical/secretary experience. That opens up so many more job opportunities for me than just my degree alone could ever accomplish, and much more than I could had I tried to get a job right out of high school. I find that people don't appreciate the arts, and that something that makes us human dies when we don't appreciate beauty. Does it cure cancer? Well, no, but if cancer is cured, then we will all die from something else anyways. There's more to life than making sure that we live as long as possible. As for English courses in college, it depends on what you take. I absolutely agree that 100-level science courses are more difficult than 100-level English courses, but you'd be surprised at how difficult some 300/400-level English courses can be. My goodness, I almost died taking a 400-level creative writing course about representing disaster. I won't even get into how difficult it was to keep up with all the work and the high standards for writing. I mean, it's not the same kind of difficulty as a 400-level Biology course, but again, that has to do with how individual brains function and how they are drawn to certain levels of learning. So, tl;dr, it might not be worth it to try to get a college degree, but it was worth it for me. It's not just about the degree, it's about all that I have learned about myself and the world, something that I wouldn't have been able to experience had I decided to take a different route.
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#18
04-28-2011
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OH
I forgot about a really important point. Excuse the double-post. I touched on my personal growth as a writer, but there are just far too many people who don't know how to write. Perhaps this is how it has always been, but honestly, why should we expect science majors to graduate and make good money in the work force when they don't know how to communicate through the written word about the research they have done? In every non-English class that I have taken in university, it is astounding just how easy these writing assignments are, and even more astounding how people can't get an A on these papers. Writing is an art. Yet despite its importance, it is not being taught very well. The 100-level general education class just won't cut it. I know several people majoring in the sciences who find peer editing to be horribly pointless, yet the English major can actually find it beneficial. There are some science classes offered that I know of that help improve student writing, but I can assure you, there are still many people who don't know how to write. There are many who do who don't need a writing degree, but people need to be encouraged from an early stage to learn how to write well. If they don't see the point in it early on, they probably won't get into the habit of writing.
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#19
04-28-2011
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As an example, I openly help many friends (well, 3, but still) at my college edit their papers from time to time. I change nothing of the actual meaning, of course. Their writing is terrible, whereas mine is definitely better. I would attribute that due to my background, opting to read and write in place of socialization. A college education doesn't necessarily make one a better writer. There are other ways to go about it. I mean, an online contact at the age of 6 managed to read the entirety of 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea in a single day. He's about 20 now. I can definitely vouch for his genius, but he's not in college, and even dropped out of high school, largely due to family problems (it's hard to make me think it's justified, but it totally is). Everyone has their own road to journey upon, and you're traveling your own. That doesn't mean that yours is the right one, of course.
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#20
04-28-2011
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#21
04-29-2011
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writing=what Killshot said, is also true in law believe it or not; though for us, the structure is about being as short handed as you can, which probably explains why courseoworks are always binned.
-As for learning to write, well I am generally a poor writer, but not because I cannot write properly. My knowledge of grammar is very high in theory and so my problems there come down to whole other field of psycho babble lol. [ My actually problem is that I overwrite things and try to analyse very last little detail, which normally comes at the expense of writing quality. What can I say, I value quality information over quality writing, even if world disagrees. ] Anyway I digress, the point is that in the UK, we are taught English wrong; not just badly, but actually wrong. -It is disgusting, how badly we are taught, because it actually means most foreign people know more about English grammar and punctuation than most English people. This woeful teaching, is so poor, that even when we find out the correct way of writing, it is still difficult to put that into practise. This has a knock on effect in university, because when we get to university we are expected to know how to write an essay answer as naturally as breathing and we simply do not know how to do it. It has taken me 3 years to actually work out how to write an essay answer properly and even now I am hit and miss. This is both in terms of structure and punctuation. University life=This is one that I am going to say, Sally made a very valid point about actually. Before I entered university, I was shy, bashful and never left my home; now I am an all round stronger and happier person, who is free completely from his parents and his past. I do not know if I could have gained this new strength on a science or English course, because in the UK, different courses seem to possessed very stereotyped students lol, and so therefore very different cultures, but I do know I gained it. minor courses=Well I am from the UK and so here, yer there considered a waste of time to the point that most courses will not let you take them and I agree, I went to university to learn about law, not basic mathematics. It seems to me, personally, that anything you learn in a minor is so elementary that you could learn quite adequately for yourself while learning other more useful things on/for your degree.
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#23
04-29-2011
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i take it, that was joke at me, technically I used the semi-colon correctly, it was the 2 commoners after it, that were wrong.....[ I'm guessing that was where you were going with that ill-advised and as well
 ]
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#24
04-29-2011
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THE JOKE WAS THAT I WAS USING A SEMI-COLON IN A SENTENCE STATING I KNEW HOW TO USE A SEMI-COLON. BUT NOW YOU'VE RUINED IT FOREVER.
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#25
04-29-2011
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I thought it was that you used the semicolon wrong! You are only meant to use another punctuation marker after semicolon, if you have conjunction between them >> o0 <<. Otherwise, your over merging complex sentences. hehe
(PS why are we spelling it semi-colon lol, I just realised that lol) [ oh god, did I just troll underling, this is not going to end well for me >> ]
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#26
04-29-2011
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So all of a sudden I'm taught about an introduction having a thesis and some other things. The problem is that because I had only just learnt this it never really had much time to sink in. I had always been bad at essays, but nobody had really sat down with me and explained to me why it was wrong and what needed fixing. All my English teachers did was tell me what was wrong and that I needed to expand and stuff like that. Luckily the school ended up realising this about a term before our end of year exams. They got in this professional tutor for about 12 of us who were the worst and he was really good. I understood what I was doing and knew where I needed to work on. Sadly none of it mattered because I had the biggest mental blank you could imagine. I wrote about 1 page in total for my exam and that was only for 1 of the 3 sections. That meant I had to do the glorious English competency test! When I tell you that nobody has ever failed this test I tell you from first hand experience that it is Year 8 difficulty. Needless to say I hate English.
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#27
04-29-2011
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Oh, and I absolutely agree - grade school teachers are generally horrid at teaching people how to write. I did not like my senior year English teacher (I thought that her teaching style was inconsistent and she was one of those types who won't let you have an opinion about a piece of literature unless it agreed with hers), but she was probably the first of my teachers to admit to us that writing is difficult. But senior year in high school is too late for essay-writing to be taught well.
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#28
04-29-2011
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Personally, I had a series of teachers who would all disagree with each other, ripping apart what I learned in the previous classes and forcing entirely different formats.
The last iteration of this was in my Junior year in high school, wherein my teacher gave us all a paper with a decent format for essays. I've followed that format loosely since then, and it's gotten me A after A after A.
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#30
04-29-2011
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