So apparently Bin Laden is dead...

[darkarcher]

Linkage.

So, apparently some time today Osama Bin Laden was killed by American troops.

My question is, at this point does it really make a difference? Yes we managed to kill a terrorist leader, but we've been killing dozens of terrorist leaders in the past decade. Speaking of decade, although we killed him it has taken us nearly 10 years of combing desert and mountains.

So I'm wondering how much this actually changes things, if at all. Do the lot of you think that Bin Laden actually had powerful attachments to the ongoing terror activity in the past years as he's been hiding away and running for his life? Is this new event going to change anything regarding the various middle east conflicts? What does everyone think about this?

[OverMind]

It's not going to make a difference.

Bin Laden was a dick, no less, but his posse of terrorists are organized and his second-in-command is probably in charge now.

---
~OverMind Has a Posse

[animex75]

yes, it's unlikely that it's over now that he's gone, but the point is that the man that was responsible for all those innocent deaths is gone for good, we still need to take down the rest of the organization, but we finally found the most wanted man in the world

about. fucking. time.

[LazySlacker]

This night feels so surreal; I'm just shaken over this news. Well, certainly this well bring comfort to those who've been affected by 9/11. Though it's feels weird to celebrate the death of a person, but his death, over the deaths of thousands, should give more of enough reason for people to celebrate.

This definitely won't be end of Al-Qaeda; maybe this will shake the morale of those terrorists, maybe not. Still, I have a really bad feeling that something bad is going to happen.

[HolyShadow]

There's only one bit of music I can think of that can accurately express how I'm feeling right now.



Thought I was gonna go with Guile's theme, eh? Inversus!

[KidNothing]

i think it's more of a moral issue than anything, but still a victory for us. sadly it's only just begun, but he was a big leader within Al Queda and hopefully this shakes them up enough to let us have the upper hand, so we can finally bring our troops home already.

/2centsyo

[Fat1Fared]

that reports makes me <sigh> infact whole war on terror makes me <Sigh>

[mystra]

all this hype is nothing more than ploy for hussein obama's running platform. anyone else notice that the speech came out 8 years to the day of bush's "mission accomplished" speech?

[killshot]

I'm still not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, we have one less reason to continue the war on terror. Killing Osama Bin Laden has been one our main goals ever since the war started and now that he's gone our reasons for being there are quickly evaporating. However, I think his death is just going to reignite the resolve of everyone involved in the war. Terrorist will want revenge for one of their leaders and a new round of flag-waving fanaticism will start in America. Now that the United States has tasted some sort of tangible victory, support for the war will increase and it will take even longer to pull out of the Middle East.

Although, with new wars starting such as the one in Libya, I've given up hope that the war will end anytime soon. In about 3-5 years, there will be soldiers who won't be old enough to remember a time when we weren't at war. Maybe that's when the war will finally end. When no one remembers why we went in the first place.

[Jotenks]

Originally Posted by HolyShadow

There's only one bit of music I can think of that can accurately express how I'm feeling right now.



Thought I was gonna go with Guile's theme, eh? Inversus!

You went on 4chan today, didn't you?


I'm celebrating because even if his officers are filling his role in al qaeda, a person like that is not one that you want on the other team

[MrsSallyBakura]

Originally Posted by mystra

all this hype is nothing more than ploy for hussein obama's running platform. anyone else notice that the speech came out 8 years to the day of bush's "mission accomplished" speech?

I'm not believing the ridiculous conspiracy theories surrounding Bin Laden's death, but I do find the timing fishy. No doubt that this event will nearly guarantee Obama into a second term. The only way he won't be reelected now is if he gets an extremely good Republican opponent, and that might not even do the trick.

[MrsSallyBakura]

Originally Posted by Dahguvik

I dunno about that, the election isn't for over a year. There's still plenty of time for him to refuck up. :U

That's true, lol. But that's still enough time for his ratings to spike up and for news to cover everything except for everything he messed up on the past 2 years.

[JesusRocks]

I think that the best people can hope for with Bin Laden's death is that general terrorist morale will go down slightly... what with the person who has been pretty much their figurehead for the past 10 years being dead and all... that's gotta suck pretty hard for them

On the other hand, they're terrorists, so it's more likely the only cry coming from the terrorist world is "REVENGE!"

Which means that the US is probably in for some crazy sh*tstorm of terrorist activity because of this.

[Fat1Fared]

=Well, first Note:-

1=Bin Laden was not the face of all terrorism to anyone other than middle class white people in the west. He was the leader of a rather average sized group of terrorists intruth. Do not get me wrong, that makes him still quite scary and not someone I am going to jump to meet any time soon, but at end of day, there were stronger and scarier men who had lot more say in what going on out there and this is even if we even ignore our enlightened leaders in this debate.
-Fundamentally he was a wicker man used as a tool to give people a face to hate and unit against in west, in the middle east, by end, he was barely involved in his own group, let alone others. (notice how that report made him out to be living the life of king in his big mud hut)

2=Bin Laden, along with many other Islamic extremist groups were a creation of the US, who spent 6billion funding these terrorist groups back in the 70's and 80's. So laughable that USA is now indigent that they are doing terrorist acts.....sorry US, but you play with devil, going to steal your soul.
-I am not saying this justifies their actions, but those waving there little red and white flags so high, should know, those flags are covered in blood of own hypocrisy or is terrorism ok, so long as these terrorist groups not attacking USA. (you know, the IRA are another lovely group that USA liked to fund....-_-)

3=guys, without going to debate, trying to explain why Obama is not bad president for you guys, going to explain that if Obama was going to assisnate someone to make his ratings go up, he would what Thetcher did when started Falklands war and do few months before election -_-.
-Also worth noting that I am sure no matter when Bin died, someone could have found conspiracy or link to something.

4=You guys are happy he is dead? Great, so what, his murderous acts, justifies more murder, then what, someone else uses that to justify more murder and spiral goes on and on and on without end. Someone, no matter how horrid you may consider him, has been brutally murdered here (and many more besides,) this is not something to start shouting USA USA USA about, this something to make us sad, because shows how little we have progressed. Heck we even wanted to capture Hitler alive and bring him to justice in more human ways and he is the face of all histories evil in most eyes, so what can you say, this is step back.
-So Bin Laden is dead and I am naive idealist still, great what have we gained is not question, question is once again, what have we lost?

[0mnislash17]

I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that this doesn't really change much. Sure, it's something us Americans can be proud of and it'll bring comfort to those 9/11 families but, it took like 10 damn years to find the guy...We've all had but forgotten about hime before we killed him lol.

If anything I'd probably agree with JR in that USA might be in terrorist trouble since without a leader with the control like Osama had those young guys out there looking to prove themselves have almost free reign to do what they want and it'll most likely point towards vengeance somehow.

[Jotenks]

If I say his death justifies murder (so we can kill everyone) or something like that so you people can't think up a retort will you stop using that arguement?

[ Because I've heard this arguement a lot today ]

[Fat1Fared]

Originally Posted by Jotenks

If I say his death justifies murder (so we can kill everyone) or something like that so you people can't think up a retort will you stop using that arguement?

[ Because I've heard this arguement a lot today ]

wow, with people like you waving the flag, I correct myself, going to be our children's children's children's, children before finally find enlightenment

Intruth, if you think his death is good thing, think that Jotenks, it is your right. However that belief is not going to help anyone; those people who died that you probably think gain justice from this! They died because of people who thought exactly the same way you do, sure their backgrounds and final aims maybe different, but at the end of the day, they were people who wanted to murderer because of past murderer like you. It is a never ending spiral and it won't end while you keep only thinking about your own righteous vindications, but if think about, their righteous vindication was just as self-forfilled and convicted as yours, they truly believed in the justice of their acts, as you and millions of others believe in the justice of this act, but how can both sides be right? Maybe truth is neither are and this occurs because neither side, says stop, lets look at this from other side for second, lets try to understand....instead it is just kill, kill kill, kill, kill till all you hear is the screams of the dying around you and the yays of crowds who watch that death, while eating their TV dinners, like some bad Roman areara. From that, people become convinced death is only option left, because murderer is all they know, death is all the see, it is the only option taken and so all they come to understand. Every day it is drilled into them like some sordid maths, as more and more die in front of their eyes, names become numbers, numbers become stats, stat's become proof. It is all on the news, in the papers, maybe even a person you knew personally, however suddenly death becomes deacted from reality as evil, and yet in that comes a sense of personalisation to it, which makes it seem right, justified, even moral and then, bang with that feeling, you are lost to same feeling that those men were lost too and suddenly, killing becomes ok, more than ok even, it is good, it RIGHTEOUS. So what if your victim is just another innocent like you, trying to live out his meaningless and peaceful life. He lives as part of a greater evil, therefore, just by being born there, being within that evil, he is part of that evil and his opinions, his beliefs, his life even, it is all forfeit, he has no right to life because he deverses death. His death will even serve a greater good in end.....doesn't matter anymore whether he is a pig farmer in middle east or lawyer in west, he is embodiment of the evil he lives within and should die for it. So bomb him, kill him, murder him, his death is the signal which brings forward your message of blood and from that blood your aims are found, even if your aim was meant to be peace.

[killshot]

4=You guys are happy he is dead? Great, so what, his murderous acts, justifies more murder, then what, someone else uses that to justify more murder and spiral goes on and on and on without end. Someone, no matter how horrid you may consider him, has been brutally murdered here (and many more besides,) this is not something to start shouting USA USA USA about, this something to make us sad, because shows how little we have progressed. Heck we even wanted to capture Hitler alive and bring him to justice in more human ways and he is the face of all histories evil in most eyes, so what can you say, this is step back.
-So Bin Laden is dead and I am naive idealist still, great what have we gained is not question, question is once again, what have we lost?

Osama was the face of evil in the west. I know his death isn't going to make a difference in the long run, but the families of the 3000 people killed on September 11 finally have some closure. We've eliminated the face of terrorism, at least in the United States, and I fail to see how this is anything but a good thing. Even a symbolic victory is still a victory.

[Fenrir502]

I agree with Fared 100%. I've never believed in the death penalty and I can think of few things more barbaric than cheering over a murder. The man may have been a scumbag, and he may have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds, but murder is still murder and justice is still just a nicer word for revenge.

I'm not saying I don't think it's a good thing he's out of the picture, because I really do. What I'm saying is was murder really the only way they could go about it? I mean, if they managed to get his body out to sea then surely they could have captured him alive to stand trial?

[Jotenks]

I never actually said his death justifies murder, I just want to stop hearing that arguement. T'was a hypothetical.

[HolyShadow]

Do you really think he would've made it anywhere without being killed?

Even in our captivity, there's pretty much a guarantee someone would've killed him out of revenge.

While I agree that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, I also believe in the 'world' part of that statement. We exist on Earth, an imperfect sphere of chaos and destruction. It's nice to say "We shouldn't have done it this way", but without realizing that our soldiers aren't (all) robots, it's merely a moot point.

For all we know, he could've been at gunpoint begging for his life, following orders, and was just shot anyway because the specific soldier that shot him wanted him dead. Even not, what's to say that one of the people in his military case (oh, I'm sorry, we're trying these cases in civilian court now) wouldn't have just pulled out a gun and shot him, or snapped his neck, or generally tried to harm him? Or that in prison, he wouldn't have just been poisoned?

Even moreso, how do we know he wouldn't have been freed from wherever we imprisoned him?

This isn't just some random criminal. He has strong connections. He could've very easily had a dozen suicide bombers come to wherever he would be held, blow the place up, and free him. In which case, we'd look pretty foolish for not having executed him. Then it would've taken another 10 years to find him, and it would've hurt our economy just that much (though I don't think we're going to get out of the middle east for a long, long time with such a shitty set of politicians).

He was made into a demon by the United States, and the majority of the people see him as a demon. Whether that's logical or not is a moot point as well. It's just true.

Was it RIGHT to kill him? No, but Fared, I thought you were the type to think a government shouldn't be moral? Abandon that concept?

[darkarcher]

Without knowing more details about the special ops that went into raiding his compound, it's impossible for me to say whether or not we could have easily captured him with no loss on our part (as it stands there were no American casualties in the attack).

However, if we had captured him then the only real difference would be that he would have stood trial and received capital punishment (not unlike a certain dictator not too long ago). The difference would have been about a year difference in when he was killed, rather than whether or not he was killed.

EDIT: Also Fared, might want to chill out a bit. As Jotenks stated his statement was hypothetical, and he was implying that he was against the very concept of death justifying death, calling out the fact that many people he had talked to tried to use that same poor reasoning.

[Fat1Fared]

Dark=why are you telling me to chill out? I was writing with poetic intent to make a point about the self-defeating intent that is murder for murder and the self-praise many give themselves for the death of another. Sometimes I want to have fun with my pervasive side, if i know not going to convince anyone of anything. Heck I didn't even think anyone would read it, I was writing for my own amusement. (sometimes I think you read everything I put in an angry internal monolog, but as say to sally, if want to know whether I am angry or not, actually easy to tell, just look to say if I have sworn, if there is not a swear word in there, then I am writing for own amusement, I thought of three years you would have worked me out by now, I am rather simple boy ^_-)
-Final point, I don't believe in death penalty ether, so that sort of moot issue, but this is not page that debate as he was murdered.


Holy=So fundamentally you base your point on IF's, well everyone knows the problems with IF's, so lets not go there and look at what you are saying. Your point as far as I can tell, is that because there is a chance 1 rogue may kill him, we should forego all humanitarian ideology and just murder him anyway, wow nice fatalistic logic. There is a chance that train will crash today, hmmm, lets crash it on purpose then....don't think that works
For next point, sort of 3 points:-
1=I don't believe law should be founded on the moralistic ideals of masses, that doesn't mean I believe law should be immoral.
2=I was not on about government actions, I was on about the joy people were taking from his death
3=there are more arguments against murder, than just moralistic debate.

Fenrir=well put, nothing to add

Jotenks=misunderstood you at first

Killshot=the problem is, what does that symbolic victory actually symbolise

[HolyShadow]

Originally Posted by Fat1Fared

Holy=So fundamentally you base your point on IF's, well everyone knows the problems with IF's, so lets not go there and look at what you are saying. Your point as far as I can tell, is that because there is a chance 1 rogue may kill him, we should forego all humanitarian ideology and just murder him anyway, wow nice fatalistic logic. There is a chance that train will crash today, hmmm, lets crash it on purpose then....don't think that works
For next point, sort of 3 points:-
1=I don't believe law should be founded on the moralistic ideals of masses, that doesn't mean I believe law should be immoral.
2=I was not on about government actions, I was on about the joy people were taking from his death
3=there are more arguments against murder, than just moralistic debate.

Less of that and more of "There's a chance that by buying 20 packages of toilet paper and eggs that the band of 4 10 year olds that just left the store are going to go vandalize someone's home... hmm. Maybe I shouldn't sell them that."

Are you willing to debate the basis of morality? I'm not. That gets messy. I'm just going to dismiss your "Moral vs. Immoral" argument as complete hogwash.

[gwtyler1985]

Terrorists come, terrorists go. So do political leaders outside of Russia and Cuba (seriously, when will that old fart die? I know he stepped down from the secretary position last month, but still he's almost 90. How much does that guy spend on healthcare?). But still, this terrorist going is seen as a major victory in the United States. Now if only we could get rid of the current political leader and get everyone home safely, maybe we can get started on more important objectives, like reducing national debt, researching alternative fuels, and most importantly, restoring our credibility in the eyes of other nations.

Also, I pretty much agree with most of Fared's statements up to the bit about morality, where noone really agrees on anything.

[Fat1Fared]

can i just say, I was not on about morality till holy brought it up <<

[HolyShadow]

Originally Posted by Fat1Fared

4=You guys are happy he is dead? Great, so what, his murderous acts, justifies more murder, then what, someone else uses that to justify more murder and spiral goes on and on and on without end. Someone, no matter how horrid you may consider him, has been brutally murdered here (and many more besides,) this is not something to start shouting USA USA USA about, this something to make us sad, because shows how little we have progressed. Heck we even wanted to capture Hitler alive and bring him to justice in more human ways and he is the face of all histories evil in most eyes, so what can you say, this is step back.
-So Bin Laden is dead and I am naive idealist still, great what have we gained is not question, question is once again, what have we lost?

This drives at the question of the morality issue involving this. Don't try to pretend that's not what you were trying to do, Fared. It's not going to work.

[OverMind]

Originally Posted by HolyShadow

This drives at the question of the morality issue involving this. Don't try to pretend that's not what you were trying to do, Fared. It's not going to work.

The real monster is ... us.

---
~OverMind Has a Posse

[SupermewX300]

Oh yes, he's dead now.

When I first heard this on the news I thought "Okay, so he's dead now. America's going to be happy"

Then I thought about it. And, on the face of it, nothing at all has been gained by his death. Bin Laden is now a martyr to Al Queda or whoever he was working with, and not only will they have been preparing for his death for years, but now that he is dead he will serve as inspiration to them, and as a point of revenge. It's really a lose-lose situation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm firm in my belief that, if he is responsible for all he is said to be then he very much deserves death or worse; and if ever I hoped that the Christian god is true then it's now, so that he gets sent straight to hell.

[ValkyrieJuno]

Originally Posted by SupermewX300

Oh yes, he's dead now.

When I first heard this on the news I thought "Okay, so he's dead now. America's going to be happy"

Then I thought about it. And, on the face of it, nothing at all has been gained by his death. Bin Laden is now a martyr to Al Queda or whoever he was working with, and not only will they have been preparing for his death for years, but now that he is dead he will serve as inspiration to them, and as a point of revenge. It's really a lose-lose situation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm firm in my belief that, if he is responsible for all he is said to be then he very much deserves death or worse; and if ever I hoped that the Christian god is true then it's now, so that he gets sent straight to hell.

When I first heard he was dead, I went to bed in a great mood. The next morning I went to school early to talk to my history teacher all about it. There was actually something gained, the satisfaction of justice for what happened on 9/11. But we may have also lost any chance there was for making peace with the Middle East by killing bin Laden, and Al Qaeda and the Taliban will be looking for revenge. The truth is, bin Laden isn't completely a martyr. We weren't threatening Islam in any way by going to war with Al Qaeda, we went to war with them because they attacked innocent American civilians. The only way he could be considered a martyr is because the Qur'an actually commands Muslims to hate and kill non-believers, and we stopped him from doing that by killing him back. Osama bin Laden was a true Muslim, no doubt about that.

It's actually a good thing that we got rid of him, because he was a sick man. In the mansion he was hiding in, they found television sets and pop cans in his room. What a hypocrite, he hates America so much yet he's drinking our pop products and using our TVs! Not only that, but on a website my sister follows, they also said they found pornography in his quarters. What does he need porn for? He already has a lot of wives, and according to Islam, he would be promised 72 virgins in heaven.

I personally hate Islam, it's such a sick religion and I'm so glad I'm Christian.