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#31
05-15-2011
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Lovely. I'd actually assumed people were making it up when they said there were people who thought Islam = terrorism. It seems I owe those people an apology.
Firstly, if Islam was such a 'sick' religion, why would it get so many followers? I refuse to believe that you actually think 20% of the world are evil monsters plotting the demise of everyone else. So I must be missing something. Secondly, the problem is not Islam at all. I'd argue that the problems are fundamentalism and fanatacism which, guess what, are present in every religion under the sun and have exactly the same effect on all of them. As long as they actually follow the dogma on its own, that's fine. It's when they atart listening to religious leaders with political ambitions that things turn out not so peachy. In other words, it's not the religion that's bad, it's the people who twist it so that they can use it as a weapon. Finally, this statement just ticks me off to no end. Quote:
Last edited by Fenrir502; 05-16-2011 at 02:39 AM. Reason: In hindsight, some of what I said was a little harsh. |
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#32
05-15-2011
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Fenrir, have you read the Koran?
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#33
05-15-2011
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I have not, so I am acutely aware of the hypocrisy of complaining about others. I wasn't trying to claim that I knew the ins and outs of the religion, but I'm sure it doesn't require its followers to hate and plot to kill everyone else. I've been meaning to pick up a copy for ages, but the fact is that I haven't yet and it's entirely possible I'm wrong. If so, please correct me because I wrote that in haste at like four in the morning so it's probably riddled with errors. I'd also like to apologies for how nasty it turned out, I don't think I'm usually so mean :'(
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#34
05-15-2011
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I have two things to say...
Number one: Quote:
 Number Two: Just a fun fact really - The Peruvian President gives credit to Pope John Paul II for the death of Bin Laden. Hilarious, isn't it? 
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#35
05-15-2011
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This is a very difficult issue to analyze because it's difficult to pick out a clear winner without taking the side of the winner.
However, I will attempt to. Basically, I'll try to list some of the things Muslims have done in the past, compared to Christians. First: Christians. The worst thing we've arguably done is the Crusades, wherein radical Christianity resulted in the death of many Muslims. Things like the "Reconquista", if you know what I'm talking about. Second, it goes further than that... basically, European countries have been colonizing half of the world since, well, gunpowder was invented. They've done this for wealth, to support capitalism. Capitalism requires people producing raw materials, those who turn those raw materials into consumable materials, and a consumer. Take the "Scramble for Africa". Countries were colonized there without heed to tribal borders because it was easier for the European countries. European countries typically built railroads to the coast, but not between necessary areas for infrastructure within the countries themselves. This essentially guaranteed that even if they would be released from traditional colonization (which they eventually were) they would merely be trading partners, not self-sufficient nations. The religion associated with these European countries during many, many years of oppression from colonization ranged from Protestant to Christian. It's easy to see how Muslims believe the white man to be the infidel, since Europeans have been screwing them for a long time. Furthermore, the US is in essence a European nation in that it was a British colony at one point, and grew to be similar to Britain in how it operates on a worldly stage. At least it appears that way to Muslims. Now, let's look at the Muslim end of things... Muslims aren't really as pure as they may try to make themselves appear. I must admit I know little about them, but I know that some Muslim leaders in the past (Saladin) would build mosques upon conquered religious sites of other countries, to essentially proclaim the Muslim dominance to the other religions. The problem with Islam is that the countries that are associated with it are typically despotic, and their seats are filled by people who dislike Europe for reasons listed above. The US is seen by some there (those in power) as the "Big Satan" and Israel as the "Little Satan", borne of the US. Some popular media there talks about exactly this, preaching hate of jews. There are many events to call upon which has radical muslims generally committing crimes against jews and christians. Whether the religion has been twisted or not, there is a fact that polls typically show muslims in the middle east generally hating christians and jews. This is perfectly fine. Let them believe what they want, and hate who they want. The problem is when they resort to violence. Back at the beginning of my post, I posted about taking sides. Well, this is the point that I'm going to take a side: Violence is unacceptable, even if they're trying to make the world better in their own way. Violence is never justified. I myself am a pacifist to my last breath. Violence only brings pain, and pain only brings regret. In this particular scenario, some pissed-off Muslims (whether brainwashed or not) attacked US citizens who were clearly innocent. In fighting back, the US neither loses nor gains further support from me. It's difficult, because I can't possibly understand those who lost their lives that day nor their families. However, I myself believe that even in defense, violence is unacceptable. I give great gratitude to those who have to commit that sin because it is not something I could morally do. However, I neither support this act nor do I oppose it. I merely watch. It's a shame that he's dead in that it is a life that has been taken, but it's also a relief because of that act of revenge. I think it was wrong to kill him from my perspective, but I think it was right if you take into account those that were most affected by this. It is naive to be a pacifist in a global stage, however, especially as your country gets stronger and stronger. If the US were a pacifist after being attacked, we would merely be attacked again and again. It just so turns out that the ultimate deterrent tends to be violence. I guess it's just something about human nature. I don't know. As you can tell, I have mixed feelings about the whole ordeal. |
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#36
05-15-2011
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If I may, I would just like to point out that the crusades were by and large the result of Catholic Cristian workings with some small motivation to support Orthodox Christians. The rest covers everything quite nicely.
I would also like to point out that Christianity hasn't and still kind of isn't as tolerant of everyone else as it would like to seem for the most part. I've always had a problem with "If they aren't like us they're going to hell", regardless of what life could await after death. And it's a particularly big part of Christian drive to convert as many people as they can, whether it be for personal gain or for genuine concern for these people. And sadly, some people see resistance as a challenge or an insult and stupidity ensues. Islam in particular is quite resistant, as their religion and culture are embedded just as deep as Judaism and Christianity, and like the latter, they are more than happy to do what they can to defend their way of life. Thus these two factions are quite likely to clash. |
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#37
05-15-2011
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I agree with Tyler about that.
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#38
05-15-2011
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Anyone going to say anything on how this plays into the current situation with our dead Bin Laden?
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#39
05-15-2011
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Some people there see him as a martyr, because he was killed by "the infidel", and spent his life opposing them.
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#40
05-15-2011
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... I was actually going for how the US claims to see this as purely political and how the people there effected by it might see this as purely religious or go for the "infidel" thing because the US claims to see it as purely political. Or some other variation that I didn't just say that I was hoping someone else would.
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#41
05-15-2011
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Not only political, but moral.
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#42
05-15-2011
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....Darn it, why is it so hard to have a constructive dialogue on the subject of theology, history, and their effect on current politics?
And before someone (Fared) send a wall of text, I said "dialogue". |
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#43
05-16-2011
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Quote:
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#44
05-16-2011
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Quote:
As for why I'm saying it like that, I promised myself that if this happened, I'd do my best to treat it as a joke. I'm hoping it'll catch on. |
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#46
05-16-2011
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Quote:
=As for the political secular verses political theological.....simple, this is a political war, but to many extremists, religion is politic's.....I could explain more, but tired after 5 hour exam and got more revision to do anyway Quote:
=Fact of matter is, humanity breeds hate and there is nothing more human than religion....the idea of holding the ultimate truth which is by all definition incomprehensible and because of that, religion breeds more hate than anything and where does hate generally come from...stupidity and what does religion allude us to do, make ourselves closed minded to single way of thinking which is by definition, a form of stupidity.....this is because the one conclusive answer we have found is that all answers are inconclusive, which means to accept anyone answer as ultimate truth is inexorability wrong and dogmatic acceptance of something incorrect is stupid...this stupidity leads to hate of that which doesn't accept your stupid way of understanding things and we are back to the start again....it is not so much a O shape as is an 8 shape...... -Now this is not to say all religious people are stupid, on conjecturer, many intelligent religious people out there, more it is to say most stupid people are religious.....thus why get simple hate. =Someone like Fenrir has worked out that his belief of right and wrong doesn't justify hate of another's belief of right and wrong, because such belief is subjective, many Muslim and Islamic believers are people who like you and I want to live out their lives....in same way, many Christians are just as hated filled as extremists in east, only difference is that most Christians come from cultures where homeland county's not being bombed to pieces and swayed with tanks.....So conclusion of this, yes there are many problems with Islamic and Muslim religions, but no more than any other religion, the problem is not religions pay-say, the problem stupid people believing in religion [ Note already stated not all religious people are stupid ] PS and to all you Christians out there on nice high seats, remember it was only 80 years ago you were butchering eastern Asian societies religions and even less for African countries and that 'conversion' was often not even supported by empires came from. -Yer ask the Chinese what think of Christianity and its enlightened missionaries << Last edited by Fat1Fared; 05-16-2011 at 03:44 PM. |
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#47
05-16-2011
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And this topic has pretty much derailed. I think that whatever can be said about the death itself has already been said so I'm shutting this down.
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