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#1
01-04-2012
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Cultural Self Deprivation and Positive Racism?
Ok, so we all know of the traditional view of Racism and discrimination where peoples rights were often violated or removed due to beliefs that their cultural or physical heritage made them less human.
Now however there appears to be a new form of racism appearing; it began with institutionalist positive discrimination by Western Governments hoping to appear enlightened and good...etc, but now there seems to be a growing tend of this appearing among people. -It is very intriguing to me that many of these people will positively view another's culture to the level that this culture can do no wrong and instead it is other cultures (often with own at heart of this because hating another's race is so last century, now is cool to hate your own culture :D) which are barbaric and should be made to follow this cultures doctrines. The most obvious example of this is the rather aptly named japofiles (correct this spelling if must Nazi wannabes) which generally tend to be young, white, males from western countries (often USA) who want to be Japanese and even the smallest 'slight' against Japan or their ideas on Japan will be a grave insult to them and there have been cases of this leading to actual bullying and attacks of those whom don't take such a view. (though as far as I can tell, this is mostly online, so probably blown out of all proportion) Now this brings up a question to me, is this ok and just leave them to their own little obsession, it is their life or should the fact that these obsessions often hold many similarities to certain forms of racism in the past, only applied to a culture which is not theirs, concern us? -Is fact it is not their culture, no defence if they openly show and express racist intent towards cultures outside the culture of their obsession and defend even most volatile acts of culture in question? PS I will try to find an online copy of article which made me wish to post this 
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#2
01-05-2012
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Positive discrimination is still, unfortunately, discrimination.
We are living in an era of political correctness where, in certain circles, if you say something negative about a particular race/gender/nationality/etc, even if it's fact, you're gonna get thrashed. That is, unless you're talking trash about white Christian men. Then it's OK. :P I have a friend who took a Native American Literature class at university. Her professor was one of those uber-politically correct types, where you weren't even allowed to call Native Americans "Indians" and if you mentioned their alcoholism you were being "hateful." My friend told me that there was no way anything written by Sherman Alexie would even enter that classroom, even though his work is some of the most well-written and nationally recognized Native American literature of our time, and attempts to portray Native American life as it actually is, not as if we are supposed to look at Native American culture through rose-colored glasses. The problem with looking at cultures through rose-colored glasses is that you don't learn the culture for what it actually is. To be able to accept a culture for what it is, you have to accept its faults, too. If we want our culture and other cultures to be the best they can be, it only hurts to ignore the faults. We have to look at ourselves and look at others as factually as possible, without placing irrational judgment (as that would go back to negative racism) and we can make a true difference in our lives and be the best we can be. Otherwise we're just living a dream world and are encouraging others to do the same. ...I hope that this is what you mean to be discussing, lol. If not, eh, it's another point. ;)
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#3
01-05-2012
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I love Japan. I like how it's a different take on the world, and I love looking at the West's influence on them.
America's history is great, but as with most Western countries, Judaism and religions that resulted from it highly affect its law, culture, and history... Japan doesn't have as much as that. I'm interested in history in general, however, so while Japan is interesting to me, it isn't like I'm obsessed with it... I can't quite say what I want about other cultures' flaws because the last time I said something outright racist on the forums I was temp-banned... (a few years ago)
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#4
01-05-2012
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I think the reason japanophiles (weaboos) latch onto Japanese culture is that they feel disconnected from their own cultural identity. This could be a matter of ignorance of their heritage or they could simply have no interest in participating in it. Fared mentioned that most weaboos are westerners. Many western countries, especially the United States, don't have a well established culture and borrow many things from other nations. This lack of cultural identity could tempt them to seek out another culture. They may find another area's heritage more interesting or meaningful than their own.
According to my grandmother, I am 1/16 native American. My grandmother isn't all there, but she told me this before her mind started to go so it may be true. Even if it is, I don't really care. Native Americans and their history do not interest me in the slightest. I look white, I identify myself as white, so I'm just white. (Except on applications. Then I am killshot the Apache, chief of affirmative action.) That how I think many of these weaboos feel. Just white. Just because I don't care about my cultural identity, that doesn't mean everyone shouldn't. Instead of being "just white," some of these people look at Japanese culture and think they want to be part of it. There's nothing wrong with it, but the ones who take it too far are ridiculed for perfectly understandable reasons. Quote:
I agree with you when you say truth should come before cultural sensitivity. Although I'm one of the few people who supports the idea of political correctness, sometimes we need to step back and just agree on what reality is.
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#5
01-05-2012
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#6
01-05-2012
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I think Killshot has it there to some extent, but being former greek obsessive (for certain reasons) I think it has more to do with a general attachment to something to the culture of that country. the Weaboos like anime, and therefore when they look at Japan have an interest in it because of anime. The like then causes them to look at the other aspects of the culture and Latch on to those aspects and it becomes an emotional passion falling into obsession. It doesnt matter if you feel attached to your country or anything, though it may help.
Fared is right in the sense, however, that you do tend to defend it to extremities and even start to hate the enemies of the culture. When I was in my obsession with Greece, I despised the Turks. Actually, I still do, because they have commited far to many attrocities to everyone and everything around them and continue to do so, so bad example (See Armenian Genocide, division of cyprus, treatment of the Christians under Ottoman rule (not that the christians did much better to the muslims to be fair...), the use of the Hagia Sophia as a museum to their own greatness, fueling the tensions between Israel and Palestine, etc). But yeah, if you find those reasons not enough, then there is a perfect example. While the Greek obsession has mostly worn off, the support for that country and the dislike for its rivals still remain. I think that positive rascism is good however, and think its silly that people get offended over it. If someone were to say White people are smart I wouldnt go HEY TAKE THAT BACK IM WHITE AND I FIND THAT OFFENSIVE, because thats just as silly as the generalisation, much like people apparently getting angry about the happy holidays vs merry christmas thing. And I think you should let them dwell in their obsession. They will learn about that culture and may encourage them to learn new skills or take the good aspects from that culture into themselves. They will soon grow out of it and be able to rationalise and see how they were being overdramatic, but maybe thats just my experience :V
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#7
01-05-2012
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The problem with those people is that the obsessive ones can be fully deluded in their beliefs and can even resent the country they are from. They also seem to be as far gone as Chris Chan, you can't reason with them. @grim the happy holidays vs merry christmas thing is more of a complaint against taking the Christ out of Christmas thing.
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#8
01-05-2012
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I don't really agree with hating one's history, because history isn't something to be hated, but you can dislike the modern culture you were born in. Forcing oneself to like a culture that seems for one reason or another unappealing is blind patriotism. Patriotism can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing.
For example: I hate most of the crap that comes out of Hollywood, and I don't like most American novels or artwork for many reasons. I recognise my own place in history, and in this country, but don't like some of the cultural things about it in a modern sense. I dislike most things on television, don't like Normal Rockwell, hate F Scott Fitzgerald and his 'great american novel'. I don't like the jersey shore, don't like most sports teams (though this applies to all countries, not just my own), and dislike American politics though I find the process interesting. Last edited by HolyShadow; 01-05-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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#9
01-05-2012
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Sally/Killshot I think the fact that, though Killshot makes a point about them not being Indians, we must also remember if taking that stance their not Native Americans, that is term we made up, really we could call them whatever we wanted at time but if wanted to get the name right in the strict sense of word, should call them by whatever they called themelves...we didn't so in end whole thing is moot to me.
Sally Aside from the above, I agree with what you said, there is nothing wrong with treating people in a way which is sensitive to their culture, so long as not using that as cover or crutch or going to the extreme that actually your nicely named positive discrimination is actually just fancy term for negative discrimination against another group. =One small example of crutching is my GF, whom often does things which by her own verification is illogical, but uses her culture to justify it. Truth is she just wants to take the easier/lazier path. Killshot you bring up some valid points and I agree there is nothing wrong with being culturally sensitive so long as being sensitive and not ignorant in reverse/goes both ways, but I must take real issue with how unpolitically correct this statement is: Quote:
-I think it is this lack of an ability to discover the wonders of ones own culture that causes this problem. To many English speaking cultures seem to believe they must be completely self-deprecating towards their own culture because somehow own culture is wrong, but that is actually both arrogant and ignorant. I like most British people feel a great shame at the acts of my people which should never be forgotten, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't feel some respect towards of those of my culture whom did some very laudable acts. For every Rhodes their was a Lloyd George and for every Clive their was a Mills. -The British Empire was build upon the back of oppression and evil, but then that same Empire and Culture scarificed everything they had to try and make the world a better place. To this day, both our culture and economics are scared and broken by our acts and most of us can barely look in the mirror anymore, but we shouldn't think like that, we should, though we made mistakes, we also tried to learn from those mistakes and tried to do the right thing in the end. My point here, it is ignorant to ignore the evils of a culture, it is equally ignorant to ignore the good it has done. -I find the USA politically to be repugnant to point I would consider myself racist, but I find people from the USA to be some of the nicest people I have ever met and whom I am often proud to call my friend. Just because the US has its problems, doesn't mean I should tard away all its good points. Same goes for any culture. And this my problem with Japanofiles or Taiofiles or even Anglofiles (yes they exist) They are not being sensitive or respectful towards the culture they claim to find enthralling, because to truly understand and appreciate something, one must accept both its weaknesses and strengths. I love Taiwanese culture, I love how friendly people are, I love how giving it is, I love how close families are here, I love how they celebrate things...etc That doesn't mean I completely ignore or worse try to justify its wrongs. Taiwanese people are far more racist towards Chinese people, than Chinese are towards Taiwanese, because most Chinese people have merely been ill-educated by their government and actually consider the Taiwanese their brothers, but many Taiwanese people hate Chinese people with same passion that many Irish people hate the English, just shown in more restrained Taiwanese manner. This is something I constantly find myself struggling with and I hate it when I hear my students saying rather disreputable things about Chinese culture; another culture I love and have many friends from. -So I agree there is nothing wrong with liking/finding another culture interesting, I do it as well, but one should not ignore the ills of that culture because to me at least, that is just an extreme version of positive racism like suggesting all Asians are good at Maths just because they are Asian...Surely if that is bad, then it taken to the extreme is worse. Jotenks<facepalm> Read a dictionary before you use the term 'actually' to apply to slang...and yes after your dibbled first line you lost all my interest. Grim the point about learning is actually a very valuable and valid one, it is probably worth researching that aspect, but having travelled many countries and met many people of this disposition, it staggers me, how many are in their mid twenties + -With positive racism, while I see what you are trying to say, I think the problem is that people are still making baseless judgements about a person, whether good or bad. Question Suarez, a South American footballer, whom plays for Liverpool Football Club recently used what is considered a very offensive word, when arguing with another player of Black skin colour. -Now his defence was that in his country, this term is not offensive and so he is not a racist. =Now cultural sensitivity would suggest we have to respect his cultures view of the word, but does that really apply here? And if so, to what extent must one culture tolerate the racism of another, which is only racist by their own standards? PS I have my own thoughts on this, but interested in others first Last edited by Fat1Fared; 01-05-2012 at 11:42 PM.
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#10
01-06-2012
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People are different. Cultures are different. People within the same culture are different. Rather than accepting the cultural racism of another, I find it to be much more accepting to accept each individual's place in the world, and exactly who they are. The totality of his life events must have brought him to that point, and though many would disagree or agree with his word choice, it is important to realize that he, as an individual, chose that specific word for a reason, though we may not understand that reason. Out of respect for the individual, we should accept them as a human being, while vocally disagreeing or agreeing with their choice.
This is important because people typically tend to dehumanize people they consider racist, at least in US politics. I think that in itself is wrong. I say it's unimportant as to whether or not a culture in itself breeds racism, simply because a culture is built upon people and their choices. Thus it comes back down to the individual.
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#11
01-06-2012
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#12
01-06-2012
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...Totally not a gift from France. We're totally not a patchwork of other cultures.
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#13
01-07-2012
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#14
01-07-2012
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I think (though with Holy, I maybe wrong) that Holy is trying to suggest that American culture is indeed made from a range of other cultures, but far from being a bad thing, that is something you should celebrate.
Now as I previously stated, in this topic of American culture I cannot fairly say whether this is true or not, but to rebut your rather scathing comments on my own culture, first, how long were you there? Second, where did you go? -I ask this because many of the Eastern Asian and African internationals I used to hang out with in the UK stated two things:0 1=Britain is nothing like America. 2=That they loved British culture. -One must remember, the hardest thing to judge is ones own culture, because to you it is not a culture, but the way things happen and only by viewing it from the outside can you truly appreciate it. Now this is not to make out that by living outside England or even Britain for half a year, I have now reached cultural enlightenment, if anything living outside my own culture has made cultural understanding harder because one is faced with the problems of another culture head on. However one thing it has done is allowed me to start viewing my own culture from another angle, which enables me to see things which I had always known existed, but never sanctimoniously saw as anything other than reality. It never even occurred to me that there was another to live. It never occurred to me that management via positive enforcement was a very British thing and that another culture would would negative discrimination as form of motivation. -Even the things I knew, I couldn't appreciate in the way I do now, until seeing first hand another cultures way of dealing with it...trust me wiki doesn't give you a true understanding until facing it head on. IE I have always known the British had a very British way of dealing with mental disabilities, but only when seeing first hand, another cultures way of dealing with it, could I truly understand the intent behind my own cultures actions and though I will not say that I understand why the other cultures manner in dealing with it, at least now say know of it, in a really sense of the word 'know'. =Finally there are things I found good about my culture which now find repugnant and things I previously disregarded from my culture, but now appreciate. I like many found the British 'individualism' to be unappealing concept on paper, but now having lived in a hive mind, where individual and creative initiative is less accepted, I can say I truly appreciate that I live in a culture where one can speak his mind and not be outcast for it and feel that one of things I miss is living in a culture where it is ok too disagree with people because won't get upset at idea of someone looking at reality in a different manner to them. I mean if music is truly one of societies purest forms of expression, then it is quite telling that music in Taiwan is very limited with only small number of small independent bands existing and breaking the norm, while UK has some of the best and most varied music in the world. So in short to this rambling, I think cultures are existent everywhere, it is just hard to judge ones own culture and also I think people misunderstand individualism in a culture as no culture at all, but in many ways it is one of the first signs of cultural identity and one I have found many from hive mind cultures find just as appealing as those in individual cultures find idea of hive mind appealing. PS killshot though I cannot comment on USA's culture, many Taiwanese people whom I know, whom have gone and lived there, love it... I mean really love it.
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#15
01-07-2012
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This may be a bit off topic but tbh I see collectivism as more of a we work for the common good instea of private gain kind of thing, not necessarilly sharing the same thoughts and ideas. but thats probably more of a balance which I percieve as the perfect society. But yeah I do see where you are getting at, that degree of collectivism is counter-developmental.
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